posted
I don't have a comment on the article, but the thread title just got more dramatic, going from War Declared on Scientoloy to -- War Declared on Scientology --
Might I suggest, to really kick it up a notch:
!/+\! War Decalared on Scientology !/+\!
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
I have been enormously bored by the whole Scientology thing. It's made many of my news feeds more tedious already.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Well, it's a fake religion that forbids people who sign up with it from getting medical treatment for psychological disorders. Because they deal with psychological disorders, the adherents are not in the same realm of conscientious objection that Jehovah's Witnesses and Christian Scientists are. So on the extreme end, they have killed at least one person who they put in a lockdown until they would respond to written messages.
In the heavily edited Tom Cruise video on KSW (Keep Scientology Working) the idea he grappling with is the iron-clad commitment to the principles of scientology and the admission of no other ideas. KSW also establishes that Hubbard was the only person with the right idea about anything, and that everyone must conform to what he says.
At least, this is what I picked up from poking around links from Gawker last week. I had also had the idea that the wiccan ethic should apply to Scientology, but they are in some very deep stuff. I don't know that it's even actively deceptive or malevolent. But their resort to lawsuits and information sabotage concerns me.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
What makes something a fake religion? Hubbard basically admitted that Scientology was wrong but that doesn't mean that there aren't people who take it seriously.
Posts: 1327 | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote: what is Scientology doing that's so negative
I thought it was pretty harmless until I started investigating it, but it's more cultish than religious in its... invasion of your life and mind.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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"We are for total freedom! [except for people to walk down public streets into events that say all welcome...]"
One hears such things about Scientology... Including higher-ups putting blocking software onto adherents computers to prevent them from accessing articles critical of Scientology... That I rather suspect the description "cult" is not terribly inaccurate.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Personally I'm hoping that the Rev. Fred Phelps' group would be offended enough by Scientology that he'd take them on. I think the battle of lawsuits, picketing and namecalling would force me to explode from schaudenfrade.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Chris Bridges: Personally I'm hoping that the Rev. Fred Phelps' group would be offended enough by Scientology that he'd take them on. I think the battle of lawsuits, picketing and namecalling would force me to explode from schaudenfrade.
quote:One hears such things about Scientology... Including higher-ups putting blocking software onto adherents computers to prevent them from accessing articles critical of Scientology... That I rather suspect the description "cult" is not terribly inaccurate.
Scientology very literally teaches its followers that there is no way that anyone who is attacking Scientology is doing so for any reason other than them hiding terrible crimes.
Which is why, despite the fact that these people who followed the cameraman to harass him with scientology jargon like "enturbulate" didn't even know who Lisa McPherson was, their only response was to turn the discussion consistently towards asking him what his crime was. My favorite part was where one of them was saying i bet he's a child molester.Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
I think a lot of the worry arises from people whose family members get involved in scientology and kind of disappear from their lives.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Javert Hugo: I don't understand why we are talking about it. So, a group takes money and in return makes people feel special about believing in aliens.
The Doctor Who exhibit has been going in Cardiff, Wales for years now, and it has a better-looking star. No big deal.
That's a dangerously oversimplistic summary of what Scientology does.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Because it ignores all the things that Scientology does that are dangerous, such as forcing members to cut off contact with their family and friends, and undergo a series of expensive 'treatments' which are nothing more than brainwashings. Just to name two things off the top of my head.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Hmm...I think that if people are adults, then they generally aren't being forced. Children, sure, but adults are responsible for themselves.
Basically, I don't really believe in brainwashing - I don't believe it exists nearly as often as it is purported to. If someone is a prisoner of war, sure, but a functioning adult with a job and a car? They may be taken advantage of, but generally when they do stupid and hurtful things, it's under their own volition. Even if Tom Cruise told them to do it.
Posts: 1753 | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
If you don't think adults are capable of being forced into doing things they wouldn't otherwise do I don't know how I can explain it to you.
Your attitude about Scientology (which presumably extends to other cults) is nearly as dangerous as their attitude towards the rest of society. I don't know if it stems from ignorance or apathy, but either way it worries me.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Okay, anon's endeavor is becoming so epic I forgive all the pictures of cats set on fire posted in /b/.
Posts: 299 | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
There's no kidnapping, right? Adults enter the centers, choose to pay the money to get whatever, and can leave without getting a hit put out on them?
If the above isn't true, why aren't they being prosecuted? That's not a rhetorical question - is there any proof of a conspiracy that protects them?
Persuaded to do things they wouldn't otherwise? Sure. Encouraged to make stupid decisions? Definitely. Cajoled by people who claim to have their best interests at heart but secretly want their money? Of course - I have several store credit cards with zero balance but apparently never-ending life that can attest to that.
But none of that is brainwashing.
Force = blackmail, physical force, holding things ransom - things like that. What, exactly, does Scientology do that forces people to get involved?
I think it's lame and the people who give them money are suckers, but I think the same about gambling and those who bought an iPhone in the first three weeks.
I don't think Scientology is actually good, but that's different from being a criminal brainwashing organization.
Posts: 1753 | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
I used to feel as you do, JH, but read up on KSW.
It's not criminal, but it is an institution that perpetrates evil without the perpetrators even knowing they are perpetrating evil, because they have turned their will over to this organization.
I find the idea that they believe they are doing good to be more frightening than if it were a deliberate fraud.
There is good it Scientology, just like there was good in Darth Vader. You know, even though he slaughtered all the Jedi kids and all that.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Did you see Juxtapose's link? With the woman who went in for 'introspection' or whatever, who came out dead, showing signs of severe dehydration and not having had food for a long time. And covered with cockroach bites?
So now people have to sign a waiver before they go in the box. O_O
Like most religions, it can be dangerous. (Though I have to agree about Doctor Who. )
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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"Brainwashing" isn't an actualy scientific term. It's popularly bandied about when people make choices, especially religious choices, that are different from what they were before, but that doesn't mean it's a real thing. Even hypnotism can't force people to do something they are strongly opposed to doing.
What, exactly, do they do to "brainwash" someone? Give them friends, a place where they feel special, and tell them stories of aliens? Maybe satisfy social and spiritual needs more than the life they were living before did? And then ask for money in return? I don't approve of telling lies, however well intentioned, and, like I said, I think Scientology is lame, but BRAINWASHING? I can't help but think of Zoolander.
---
Yes, I read the link. Very sincere question: Why weren't they prosecuted for kidnapping? Holding someone against their will is against the law. Why wasn't this a criminal case?
Wikipedia basically accuses the Scientologists of holding her against her will as they starved her and set cockroaches on her. That's definitely illegal - so what's up? Is there a source on that that isn't hearsay?
Posts: 1753 | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
They were charged with "abuse and/or neglect of a disabled adult and practicing medicine without a license". Those charges were dropped. Why that happened is a matter of some controversy.
My link wasn't meant to say "THEY KILLED HER!!!" though I see why you would think that. It's more to say, "here's something they do which is cruel, potentially dangerous, and practiced by people who very likely do not have relevant training."
Posts: 2907 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
I read the chapters on the guy's personal story in A Piece of Blue Sky, which was linked above. The introduction into Scientology apparently involves mediating for hours, and the guy experienced hallucinations. Sensory deprivation, lack of sleep, people yelling at you -- these can overwhelm a person, leaving him or her surprisingly malleable. I've been surprised at how open to suggestion I can be when I'm impaired from lack of sleep or skipping a meal. I remember an incident from my childhood where I was beginning to suffer from being too hot and dehydrated, and I chose a less-favored option over a more-favored option simply because I couldn't seem to express what I wanted and someone asked if I'd like the first option. It's a really mild example, but I definitely believe that you can exert a lot of force with the right levers. It's not the friendly people and funny stories that does it, I think. It's the hours of repetitive exercises and meditation that tamper with a person's ability to think for himself or herself.
Also, I don't see "brainwashing" as referring to a wiping of a person's mind or personality. Brainwashed people are not robots. It's just a surrender of the will to a person or organization to the degree that the person doesn't question anything and reality is ignored if it conflicts with the accepted authority.
Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Unless people constantly live in the compound and have all their food and senses dictated by the organization, then they are picking it. I grant that brainwashing exists for POWs and such for just that reason, but it looks like Scientologists can go home at night and then choose to come back the next day.
If that isn't true, I'd like to know why they are not regularly prosecuted for kidnapping. If it is true, then the adults are choosing it. Freedom of religion applies even when the religion is lame.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Most religions are lame. I could care less about 'lame'.
Scientology is dangerous.
I can see an LDS member not wanting the term 'cult' to be applied to a religion with strange practices, but there's really nothing to fear here. Scientology is way out in left field.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Being LDS has probably made me more sensitive to the use of the word "cult," but it doesn't mean I'm wrong here.
I agree about the left field. I agree it's weird and I think it's all about money. I don't agree that that makes it dangerous - at least, not anymore dangerous than casinos with no clocks and that curious obsession with sailboats men from landlocked states seem to develop.
I'm not being rhetorical in asking why there aren't more prosecutions. I'm not trying to prove a point. I'm sincerely asking why, if followers are being held against their will and deprived of food and water, there are not legal ramifications for it.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:it looks like Scientologists can go home at night and then choose to come back the next day.
Why would that matter?
If someone is "brainwashed" by participating in an activity that they have choosen to do, how does that make them any less brainwashed?
---
edit: As an aside, there have been a couple of statements here that seem to me to be blatantly against the TOS. Do the powers that be not consider Scientology to fit under the not mocking others' religious beliefs?
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
No one has established that brainwashing took place in the first place.
I think part of the freedom of religion is the freedom to take part in dumb religions that only want members for their money.
Edit: Squick, if you feel a post should not be there, the appropriate action is to whistle it. That way Pops doesn't have to constantly read every post on the board.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:I think part of the freedom of religion is the freedom to take part in dumb religions that only want members for their money.
Fair enough. I guess what I'm reacting to is looking at scientology and seeing a lot of truth in it and trying to figure out where it went so wrong.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I have to agree with kat here. Scientology is weird. There is much evidence that its based on fraud and the leaders are out to get rich, nothing more.
But scientology has been around for more the 50 years, if they were really that dangerous -- I'd expect a smoking gun by now and one story about a person who died while in one of their sessions but where all charges of abuse were dropped just doesn't qualify.
In Montana, neighboring yellowstone there is a community belonging to the Church Universal and Triumphant. There are regularly accused of being a dangerous cult who brainwash their followers. While their beliefs are definitely more than 2 standard deviations off the mean, I never saw any evidence that they were dangerous or that members weren't fully competent to exercise their will. I actually knew one member reasonably well. She was bright, intelligent, ran an excellent school and I saw no reason to believe that she had been "brainwashed".
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:No one has established that brainwashing took place in the first place.
No, they've just established that situations that have been proven to make some people highly suggestible are part of the introduction to Scientology. You countered that this doesn't matter because people choose to do it and choose to return. I don't see how them choosing to go and return to these activities invalidates the idea that their later decisions are highly affected by the (in most cases) unsought effects of this process.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
So what standards apply to determining whether something is a religion and entitled to protection under the constitution?
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Ah, my old friend Anonymous. Well, look, this is dumb.
Anonymous is not capable of doing anything serious to the church of Scientology. At best they may make a minor nuisance of themselves before losing interest and moving on to other things.
Don't get me wrong -- some of these people are smart people and the chaos they create can be mystifying.
But they have no mission.
I have no real problem with Scientology; pick your poision.
Posts: 2267 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
For me, the (main) problem isn't brainwashing.
The problem is, in a word, fraud. Among other things, they claim to be able to treat people with severe mental illnesses. As far as I know, they are not licensed to do so, nor are they trained in any methods that have been evaluated by professionals. Whether this is legal or not, I don't know. I do know that the Church of Scientology uses scare tactics and Phelpsian litigation* to go after people who go against them. Legal or not, it's all very unethical.
*Maybe Phelps uses Scientological litigation?
Off to work now! Hope you aren't all brainwashed by the time I get back. Posts: 2907 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:No, they've just established that situations that have been proven to make some people highly suggestible are part of the introduction to Scientology
I sincerely doubt that this has been established.
according to Wikipedia:
quote:In 1987, the The American Psychological Association (APA) Board of Social and Ethical Responsibility for Psychology (BSERP) rejected the brainwashing theories as "lack[ing] the scientific rigor and evenhanded critical approach necessary for APA imprimatur".
quote:. . . for twenty years, starting in the early 1950s, the CIA and the Defense Department conducted secret research (notably including Project MKULTRA) in an attempt to develop practical brainwashing techniques (possibly to counteract the brainwashing efforts of the Chinese), and that their attempt failed.
quote:The controversy about the existence of cultic brainwashing has become one of the most polarizing issues among cult-followers, academic researchers of cults, and cult-critics. Parties disagree about the existence of a social process attempting coercive influence, and also disagree about the existence of the social outcome — that people become influenced against their will.
So it seems that the claim that anything has been "established" about brainwashing within cults or other organizations is an overstatement.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:No, they've just established that situations that have been proven to make some people highly suggestible are part of the introduction to Scientology
I wasn't talking about brainwashing, but rather about "situations that have been proven to make some people highly suggestible".
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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