posted
Hi guys - I haven’t posted on here in a long time!
Before I start I just want to make it clear that I am not looking for advice on my personal relationship; I'm just looking for opinions on this sort of thing in general.
Anyway - So my partner and I went to a wedding on the weekend and had to put up with the statement that everyone loves to make whenever we go to any family gathering of this sort - "You'll be next!”. Well, Thomas and I don't WANT to get married - we are of the position that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" and don't really see any reason for to get married. (I must point out though - that this view is only for our own relationship - we are quite happy for friends and family to do whatever they like with their relationship, get married - don't get married, we are happy for them whatever they do.)
But, when I try to explain this to people they usually say two things:
a) "Yeah, you are still young - you still have a lot of things to do before you get married"
and/or
b) They think that we don't love each other enough......
Why does marriage seem to be the be-all-end-all? Why does it seem that people think that the relationship of a married couple is superior to a relationship like that of my partner and I?
Thomas' sister had been with her partner 1 and a half years before they were married, Thomas and I have been together for over 5 years - yet now that she is married, people think that her relationship is more stable and committed than ours...
It just seems a bit off to me - but it may just be because I don't like my relationship being judged that way.
What are your opinions on this sort of thing? If people get married after they have been dating 3 months - does that mean that they are more committed than the couple that are not married but have been together 10 years?
I don't like to pass judgement, in my opinion - its not really any of my business. However, from lots of experience, it seems that lots of other people do and I don't quite understand why that is...
Posts: 315 | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by stacey: ... If people get married after they have been dating 3 months - does that mean that they are more committed than the couple that are not married but have been together 10 years?
First, I suppose we need some form of metric for "commitment" Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
When you get married, you are saying publicly, "We are committed to each other; give us tax breaks!"
Until you get married, you have not made a public, formal committment. It is therefore reasonable for people to conclude that you are not as committed to each other.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by stacey: If people get married after they have been dating 3 months - does that mean that they are more committed than the couple that are not married but have been together 10 years?
You don't specify whether the couple who have been together 10 years have made any sort of commitment to each other or whether they've only stayed together because they haven't had any reason not to. And if they have made a commitment, have they made that commitment public?
The couple that gets married has made a public declaration of commitment. The other couple has not. They might be committed to each other, but an observer from the outside does not have access to that information. And, of course, the couple that has publically stated their commitment might not really be committed to the relationship. But it's generally considered good form to take people at their word for this sort of thing.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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I think that married people probably view it that way because it is how they felt about getting married. After my wedding, I felt closer and more committed to the relationship then I had prior to my wedding. There is something in publicly vowing to stay together and also something in how I view my commitment to my marriage that made it more permanent than the long term dating relationship it was previous to the wedding. I was committed and planned to stay with him prior to the wedding, but if things were to change and the relationship got really rough, I probably would have ended things whereas now, I would feel a deep responsibility to resolve issues if at all possible.
Posts: 416 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: When you get married, you are saying publicly, "We are committed to each other; give us tax breaks!"
In NZ, if you are living together - you are in a de facto relationship and get those tax breaks anyway and all the legal stuff is the same as if you were married....
So just the public thing huh? So its not commitment until your relationship is everyone elses business....? Posts: 315 | Registered: Jun 2002
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Hi, Stacey - I think Tom has put his finger on it. The way you speak of your relationship right now indicates that you understand it as something between you and Tom; a marriage, however, takes a broader view. It recognizes that your relationship has implications for the rest of your family, and for society as a whole. As the tax breaks indicate, in the US we understand a married couple to be a functional unit of society comparable to an individual.
Posts: 794 | Registered: Aug 2000
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There are so many varying degrees of commitment among the married people I've known that this isn't a straight forward question to answer.
I've known people who married after 3 months together (or 4 years together) and remained happily married until their deaths. I've also known people who married after knowing each other 3 months and got divorced after another 3, people who married after they'd lived together for several years whose marriages ended in divorce and everything in between. So I have a hard time viewing marriage as a reliable sign of commitment.
I will say though, that I have come to view eschewing marriage as you and your partner are as a sign that there is some reticence to commit. I have close friends who had lived together for over a decade. We all considered them married even though they never made it legal. Recently they separated and it is the nature of the separation much more than anything they did while they were together which confirms that they didn't marry because they weren't fully committed to each other.
So here is my question for you. Why don't you and your partner want to get married? Clearly it would please your family and friends plus you could have a great party. If marriage really doesn't mean anything to you or about how committed you are to each other, why don't you want to do it?
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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I was just talking to a woman at work yesterday and she mentioned that her last partner and her had been together for 10 or more years but never got married because his last marriage ended badly and he didn't want to get married, and that was fine with her.
Marriage, to me, seems more like a legal formality than anything else, unless you're religious, in which case it has that bent to it. If people don't want to get married but still want to be together, then more power to them, I'll generally take anyone at their word unless I'm really good friends with them and I know there's something else to it.
But I could see how someone could assume that the lack of formal declaration might mean they don't care as much, because marriage is seen and referred to as the 'next step' or final step I guess, in a relationship. If you haven't taken the step, something must be wrong.
I say to each his own.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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So just the public thing huh? So its not commitment until your relationship is everyone elses business....?
Well, you asked about how "the public" views the relationship. If your view is that your level of commitment is no one else's business, then you can't really expect them to acknowledge that commitment, can you?
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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When you get married, you are saying "I love this person and I don't think I'll ever change my mind. I'm willing to bet half my stuff and a potentially expensive, frustrating, maddening and heartbreaking court trial that I will love this person until the day I die."
If you don't get married, you are saying "Eh, I could split any day, no sweat."
Even if you forgo every other benefit of marriage, this is reason enough.
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
Our U.S taxes would actually be worse if Steve and I were married, because neither can claim the other as a dependent due to nearly equal earnings. (I always run them that way in turbo tax to check)
Stacey, how long have you been with your partner?
Tom Davidson has also joked that Steve and I are more committed to not getting married than most people are to being married. (We've been together 8 years now) There are also studies that once you go over about 5 years (I think it was 5 years?) in a long term relationship the breakup statistics are identical between married and non-married couples.
Posts: 11265 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Originally posted by scholar: Also, if you are married, it is a bit harder to back out of that commitment.
How so? If you were in a de facto relationship - and then decided to seperate, how is that different from being in a marriage and deciding to seperate? You have to go through the same process - I would think it would be pretty much the same, not harder...
Posts: 315 | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: When you get married, you are saying publicly, "We are committed to each other; give us tax breaks!"
When do I get these tax breaks? I've been married for nearly 18 years and nearly every year we've paid more in taxes than we would if we hadn't been married. I have a marriage of inconvenience.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Divorce court can be more problematic, than an "unmarried" breakup.
Incidentally if Steve and I did get legally married, I'm not sure if I'd tell anyone, just because that whole implied "public" component of marriage bothers me so much.
Posts: 11265 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Originally posted by BannaOj: There are also studies that once you go over about 5 years (I think it was 5 years?) in a long term relationship the breakup statistics are identical between married and non-married couples.
The studies I've seen are relative to divorce rates for couples who lived together prior to marriage. Couples who live together for over 5 years and then get married have divorce rates similar to couples who do not live together prior to marriage. Those who live together for less time have a higher divorce rate than couples who do not live together at all prior to the wedding.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: When you get married, you are saying "I love this person and I don't think I'll ever change my mind. I'm willing to bet half my stuff and a potentially expensive, frustrating, maddening and heartbreaking court trial that I will love this person until the day I die."
If you don't get married, you are saying "Eh, I could split any day, no sweat."
Even if you forgo every other benefit of marriage, this is reason enough.
Sorry - must be a different process in the US? Because the half your stuff/court thing works here even if you are not married....
Posts: 315 | Registered: Jun 2002
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Rabbit, I guess that does put a monetary value on your commitment to the concept of "marriage".
I know that you believe in the concept of marriage for other reasons too, but it is an interesting idea as far as monetary value goes.
Posts: 11265 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:When do I get these tax breaks? I've been married for nearly 18 years and nearly every year we've paid more in taxes than we would if we hadn't been married.
Have some kids. Of course, then taxes are no longer your biggest concern. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Like BannOj said- divorce procedures are a pain. Also, if you changed your name (which is in my experience more common among married folk then non), that is another big hassle.
Posts: 1001 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by BannaOj: Divorce court can be more problematic, than an "unmarried" breakup.
Incidentally if Steve and I did get legally married, I'm not sure if I'd tell anyone, just because that whole implied "public" component of marriage bothers me so much.
I feel the same way. If by some fluke I GET into a committed relationship, how is it anyone's business? I do not want my family and society involved in MY relationships.
But the tax breaks would be nice. I need tax breaks.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Well Tom, you might get tax breaks, but you're also more statistically likely to be broke and depressed.
Posts: 11265 | Registered: Mar 2002
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Iloved my husband before I married him, but I think there was something powerful (for me) in standing up in front of my family and friends and saying, "Here we are together, and together we shall be."
I certainly think it was a line I needed to cross, being a child of divorce and somewhat committment-phobic. We had a long engagement, and even during that I went out a few times with other people. I, personally, really needed to make that final decision publicly, to choose this one man over any possible other men. That was 15 years ago, and I haven't regretted it.
Heh. But now I introduce him to people as "My lover" just to freak people. Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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So I guess the trend coming through is that people see it as a sort of final "step", that they need a line drawn in the sand to say "that side is where we weren't committed and this side is where we are committed". So can commitment built over time or is it always just a jump from not committed to committed? Is time a reliable measure for commitment or just marriage?
Posts: 315 | Registered: Jun 2002
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I'm sure my personal aversion to marriage (aside from the financial aspects) also has to do with my family always tending to be up in everyone else's bidness where relationships are concerned.
Since my relationship isn't "legitimate" they can't acknowledge it to the same extent, therefore they stay out of my life in that area at least.
Posts: 11265 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:When do I get these tax breaks? I've been married for nearly 18 years and nearly every year we've paid more in taxes than we would if we hadn't been married.
Have some kids. Of course, then taxes are no longer your biggest concern.
I guess you've missed out on the threads where I've revealed that we have been trying to have kids for over 15 years without success and the fact that this is a sore point with me.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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I always thought as you do stacey - in fact, I believed (still do, to a degree) that for many people the piece of paper is an excuse: 'We're married, we've got the piece of paper to prove it, we don't have to try now'.
My wife and I were together exactly five years to the day before our marriage. For so long I didn't think I'd ever marry due to all the religious connotations and my own perception that it was more honourable & romantic to make the commitment without having the 'fallback' of the marriage certificate.
Then again, my wedding was the happiest day of my life, by such a long margin it's unbelievable.
Initially I didn't want to, but was happy to for Jus' sake. Then I got excited about the whole proposal thing - it gave me a chance to do some really romantic stuff! Turned out that after the proposal and all that it entailed, we felt changed and closer for it.
Then the wedding. The whole lead-up to the wedding was so stressful that I developed a skin condition that required makeup on the day. But if you've seen the shots (they'll be on page 3 or so by now) you'll see me the happiest and proudest I've ever been and my wife just looked absolutely stunning.
And again, we feel changed and closer for it.
Having said all that, I'm not advocating it - it's right for some, wrong for others. I just wanted to share how someone could go from your position to thinking that being married is wonderful in the space of a few years.
Posts: 2245 | Registered: Nov 1998
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I'd say it is not a reliable measure for committment. All I said was that it was one I needed to take, something I set in my mind as a point of no return. Something to tell myself that things had changed, and it was no longer okay to go out with other people. *shrug* It's always been very important to me not to be an oath-breaker. I don't have any idea why. I would not have taken the oath if I wasn't committed in the first place.
But you shouldn't take a measure by just me. My relationship is wierd. Awesome, but atypical. On teh other hand I know many people who have been married a number of years who should never have done it. They're miserable.
I think people can be miserable with any choice, if it's the wrong one for them.
Posts: 9293 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
Just quit being stupid and arguing semantics. If you want people to treat you as a serious married couple, get married. If not, quit whining.
Posts: 1042 | Registered: Jan 2001
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quote:Originally posted by stacey: So I guess the trend coming through is that people see it as a sort of final "step", that they need a line drawn in the sand to say "that side is where we weren't committed and this side is where we are committed". So can commitment built over time or is it always just a jump from not committed to committed? Is time a reliable measure for commitment or just marriage?
I don't see anyone on this thread saying that. I think you are projecting.
And again I wonder why, since you're so adamant that your commitment is none of anyone else's business, that you care what other people think of it. If you want public acknowledgement, make a public commitment. If you don't care about public acknowledgement then stop asking for it. You can't have it both ways.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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If your family wants to ask nagging, incessant questions, they'll always find something new to bother you about. If you get married, they'll want to know when you're having kids. When you have a kid, they'll want to know when each and every milestone has been reached, and are you doing enough to get him there, and have you tried that thing your cousin did?
My sig-o and I are thinking about finally tying the knot this fall. We've been together 11 years and living together for 5. We've made a commitment to each other already, we know we're not going anywhere, so the piece of paper isn't about that. I think for me it's mostly a peace of mind thing. I'll be his next of kin and won't have to worry about fighting his parents on treatment if he's in the hospital. Anything not in both our names is mine if anything happens to him.
It's like a security blanket. We don't need it to be fully committed to each other, but it'll be nice to have it.
Posts: 2283 | Registered: Dec 2003
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AR: I was with a guy I thought was committed to me. We lived together for three years. I didn't need that peice of paper either, then he left.
Probably the single brightest moment of my life was the day my husband asked me to marry him. Because I knew he wouldn't be leaving me like the last guy did.
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:Originally posted by dkw: And again I wonder why, since you're so adamant that your commitment is none of anyone else's business, that you care what other people think of it. If you want public acknowledgement, make a public commitment. If you don't care about public acknowledgement then stop asking for it. You can't have it both ways.
I asked about this topic because I think it's an interesting one (not because I wanted advice about my relationship - I only used that as a background to start off discussion). I don't understand why you seem a bit angry at me for wanting to discuss it?
quote:Originally posted by stihl1: Just quit being stupid and arguing semantics. If you want people to treat you as a serious married couple, get married. If not, quit whining.
I didn't think I was whining about anything. Sorry if you thought I was. I thought I was asking questions about peoples opinions. So it was great to see your opinion on the matter as that is why I posted but the great thing about opinions is that they don't always have to be the same (Like you thinking I'm being stupid for example - I disagree )
posted
Pixiest, I appreciate your concern, and I'm sure your comment is meant as nothing but a cautionary tale in the kindest sense. However, you should probably be aware that married people always feel the need to do this to single people. And I mean always - as in every single conversation I've ever had on this subject.
On the bright side, you didn't feel the need to explain to me why your divorce wasn't your fault. That's my least favorite lecture on why we should go ahead and tie the knot. I'm not even sure why that one makes sense to the people telling the story. It's ok to get fooled? Life is unpredictable so why even try to find a toe hold of certainty? I don't get it, but I don't like it.
Posts: 2283 | Registered: Dec 2003
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I'm also the kind of person who doesn't feel the need to get married. My husband wanted to, though, so I was glad to do it for him since it means so much to him. (Not that being with him doesn't mean the world to me, of course - it does! But marriage itself was very important to him while I would have been just as happy to be with him unmarried if that's what he'd wanted. I really had no preference.)
However, I cannot deny a major benefit to being married: Much better tax refunds. If you're already with somebody who you adore and have a great, strong relationship with, might as well let the government reward you a little bit for it.
Posts: 1006 | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:I guess you've missed out on the threads where I've revealed that we have been trying to have kids for over 15 years without success and the fact that this is a sore point with me.
Yes.
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quote:Is time a reliable measure for commitment or just marriage?
Honestly? For most people -- although not all -- I think marriage is a much better measure. Because I know lots of unmarried couples who've been together for 10 years or more mainly because they're, well, inert.
For what it's worth: I had lived with Christy for three years before our marriage, and I did not expect our relationship to be changed by the piece of paper. I was actually quite surprised when it was. It's fairly difficult to explain, but there was in fact a perceptible difference in the way we treated our relationship.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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I think there is something to the fact that after marriage, you are a wife or husband. Marriage changes your classification. Part of your identity is the commitment you have made, which while dating isn't true.
Posts: 1001 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Is time a reliable measure for commitment or just marriage?
Honestly? For most people -- although not all -- I think marriage is a much better measure. Because I know lots of unmarried couples who've been together for 10 years or more mainly because they're, well, inert.
Ah, so its kind of a keeping the relationship moving forward process rather than staying in the same place?
So I guess people could think that your relationship was kind of static if you weren't going through the steps (dating, moving in, marriage, babies) (thinking out loud here ) What if the relationship was moving forward - moving in together, having kids etc etc - but missed out the step of marriage. Would that still not be enough to make you think that they are committed to one another?
(Genuine questions here, I don't mean to be abrasive at all! Sorry if it comes off sounding like that.)
Posts: 315 | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by stacey: I don't understand why you seem a bit angry at me for wanting to discuss it?
Nope, not angry at all. I just think the answer to "Why do people treat married couples like they have more of a commitment than unmarried couples" is pretty obvious.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Ah, so its kind of a keeping the relationship moving forward process rather than staying in the same place?
No. Rather, I'm saying that a lot of the long-term unmarried couples I know are only together because they're inert; they're lazy and afraid of dating again, so they stay together as long as they're comfortable with that arrangement. That's not really a commitment; it's convenience.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: Probably the single brightest moment of my life was the day my husband asked me to marry him. Because I knew he wouldn't be leaving me like the last guy did.
Would that my ex had that sense of commitment. Being married is no guarantee you won't be left.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by stacey: I don't understand why you seem a bit angry at me for wanting to discuss it?
Nope, not angry at all. I just think the answer to "Why do people treat married couples like they have more of a commitment than unmarried couples" is pretty obvious.
Ah I see - whereas I don't think its obvious I don't think people should be treated differently in that respect...
Posts: 315 | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
I think that we differ in the fact that I think time is a better indicator of commitment rather than a public ceremony. I think that if a couple has been together for a certain amount of time - then they deserve to be treated as if they are in a committed relationship (whether they are married or not).
I also think your comments re long-term unmarried couples can apply to married couples as well.
Its not as if unmarried couples keep how long they have been together a secret, it's not as if they keep their relationship under wraps. Is that not a public enough commitment?
Posts: 315 | Registered: Jun 2002
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