posted
If someone is actually judging the integrity of your relationship based on whether or not you're married, then you probably shouldn't take their opinion too seriously.
That said, I like how Tom put it.
It seems to me like you're currently looking for a way to justify your own decision. If you don't want to get married, then don't. But be prepared to be judged for it, regardless of whether or not it's right.
Posts: 1945 | Registered: Jul 2005
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My sister lived with her boyfriend for almost 10 years. When he left, it was definitely easier for him to call it quits than it would have been if they had been married. He just took his stuff and moved out.
The reason he left? She wanted to get married, he didn't.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
My way of thinking is that - Why should I? (the whole "why?" - "why not?" argument, it can go round and round )
Didn't really want to make this about my own relationship but - in my particular case I feel that we are there already. We are already committed; we don't need a piece of paper to make us feel as if one of us is not going to run off (as if marriage would guarantee that anyway...). I think that people we know should be able to respect that we are in a committed relationship because we are! We prove that everyday by supporting each other, living together, making big decisions together etc etc etc.
But that is still not good enough? We could remain together (happily together! not just out of convenience) until we died and it still wouldn't be accepted that we were in a committed relationship because we weren't married?
Posts: 315 | Registered: Jun 2002
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stacey: One note, completely separate from the issue of what other people judge is the question of why you should even care what other people think. If your personal situation is committed with your partner (and I honestly have no reason to doubt you on that) then why bother trying to convince the people that you meet? It just seems less relevant than what you and your partner judge.
Sometimes people will disagree with you, and thats ok Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:We could remain together (happily together! not just out of convenience) until we died and it still wouldn't be accepted that we were in a committed relationship because we weren't married?
Maybe not. So why not get married?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by rollainm: It seems to me like you're currently looking for a way to justify your own decision.
Sorry but like I said before, I wasn't after advice or opinions on my own personal relationship, just on the subject in general. I'm sorry that I did use my relationship as an example but it was just a way of introducing the topic... I don't need to justify anything (to me, my partner, or anyone else for that matter). It was JUST an interesting topic.
Posts: 315 | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:We could remain together (happily together! not just out of convenience) until we died and it still wouldn't be accepted that we were in a committed relationship because we weren't married?
Maybe not. So why not get married?
*Removing myself from the example because its getting too much about me and not enough about the topic*
Why would that couple need to get married?
Posts: 315 | Registered: Jun 2002
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They wouldn't need to. But if they wanted public appreciation of their commitment, marriage would make that easier.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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I think that when you are going against a societal norm, people are likely to ask you "why?"
It is currently the norm for people to get married at a certain point in their relationship. Why is that the case? There are many reasons...but overall...it is done because that is just how the society is currently set up. If you are going to go against society, people are going to wonder why.
It seems odd to me that a couple would want to NOT get married, but still expect society to think of them as if they were married. If society thinks that marriage is a sign of commitment, it makes sense that society would see a lack of marriage as a lack of commitment. I don't think that a couple should feel the need to get married...but they should realize that if they don't go along with society's sign of commitment, that they will be treated as if they are not committed.
If you (or the hypothetical couple) don't provide a reason as to why you are choosing to not go through with society's sign of commitment, then people are going to assume that the reason is that there is a lack of commitment.
Posts: 1901 | Registered: May 2004
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Religious or not, committing to something in front of people one cares about is a powerful thing. I suspect it's the same experience society tries to achieve in "swearing in" before a jury or promising to uphold laws or constitutions before taking office.
I think it's more than "my word, all these people are going to remember that I promised to do this and hold it against me if I screw up"; with the right group of people, one essentially has an entire group willing for things to work.
(Which is not to say there aren't weddings that have someone muttering "I give him and that sleazy tart six months", but that's not what one hopes for.)
In the U.S., aside from tax issues, there's also inheritance and insurance matters... My sister freely admits that the conversation that led to her marriage began with talking about medical insurance.
You can believe that you love someone so much that you want the people close to share in and recognize the joy you feel in that love, and that's great. You can also believe that you love someone so much that you don't care how the people around you regard that relationship. Arguably, that's all right, too... But I wouldn't argue that it's quite the same.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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I think Jerry Seinfeld hit the nail on the head when he said:
quote:Originally posted by Jerry Seinfeld: I'm really enjoying this marriage thing. You think about each other, you care about each other. It's wonderful. Plus, I love saying 'my wife'. Once I started saying it, I couldn't stop. 'My wife' this, 'My wife' that. It's an amazing way to begin a sentence.
posted
Well as a chronically single person I have not really noticed any difference between long term unmarried couples and married couples. They act the same. I understand the whole public commitment thing, but how they act as couple doesn't really change. It really depends on the couple. These days marriage is easy to get out of, easier in some states than others. Some married people cheat, some leave, some don't. The same goes for unmarried people. So the only way to get any sort of gage to their commitment is to really get to know them. Even then you can’t really know.
The only thing I’ve noticed that really changes how couples act seems to be kids. Once kids inter the picture their entire lifestyle changes, and even if they choose to leave they are legally required to support the children. So to me children are much better gauge of a couples commitment to the relationship. Not saying couples without children aren’t committed, just say that ones with kids are committed on some level whether they want to or not.
Posts: 555 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by stacey: My way of thinking is that - Why should I? (the whole "why?" - "why not?" argument, it can go round and round )
You've already given us a reason why. Get married so that family and friends will give you the same recognition they give other married couples.
I will admit this is not very weighty reason, but if you are fully committed and think your relationship should be recognized as such, it is A reason. If there are not reasons to counterbalance that reason, then it is reason enough.
Tom wasn't asking a simple rhetorical question. In our society Marriage is the traditional way we publicly recognize a life time commitment between a man and a woman. So if you are avoiding getting married is naturally a sign that you are not seeking public recognition of your commitment. There could be many reasons for this.
Maybe the couple doesn't want public legal recognition of their commitment to each other. Of course if that is the case, then there shouldn't be a surprise that people don't think of them as committed.
Maybe the couple just eschews tradition. Of course whenever you choose to eschew tradition you must accept that your choice won't be viewed favorably by traditionalists.
And maybe the marriage means more to the couple than the consciously recognize. Maybe it has negative connotations. Maybe they aren't ready to fully commit. Maybe their are financial, family or cultural reasons that they don't want to get married. But there are always reasons even if they are not clearly thought through.
Is marriage necessarily a good sign that people are fully committed -- clearly not or divorce would be unheard of?
But I think if you look at any given couple, getting married is evidence that they are choosing legal and public commitment to each other.
Are you less committed to your partner than you would be if you chose to get married? Most likely yes. After all if you really thought marriage would have not change your relationship in any way, why not do it and make your mother happy?
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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Words matter. A husband is different then a boyfriend, and a wife is different then a girlfriend. Every time you say "my husband," you are referrencing your commitment, in a way reminding yourself of it. It is part of you.
Posts: 1001 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
When I was a fresh RM on my scholarship to BYU I got married like most Mormons do at that stage in their life at that place.
We quickly realized it was a mistake. We knew within a year it was not meant to be. Due to tax reasons,grant reasons, and because we maintained an amicable relationship, we postponed the divorce another year.
When it came time for the divorce it was simple. She had already moved out of state and I transferred to a different school. It was 50 bucks and not messy. We contested no property and had no kids.
Later on in my life I had a girl friend who moved in with me. We wanted to stay together and lived together for a time. Eventually I left her. It wasn't meant to be.
More recently I dated a girl for a year and we got married. We now have a 3 year old and a newborn. We are committed. We are married. We are happy. It is meant to be.
With that experience I would like to make 2 points.
First I want to back up what SC Carver said. The truest form of commitment is kids. A divorce now would be messy and emotionally and financially devastating. Whether we are together or not we are bound in commitment. Thank goodness we were both ready.
Second I would like to back up what Tom said. Even when I was married to my first wife and we knew it would be over, there was a qualitative difference between that relationship and my live in girl friend who I, at that time, wanted to stay with.
It was just different. Even tho our marriage commitment was failing, we had made a public and sincere commitment. It failed, but there was a difference.
As easy and as necessary as the divorce was, it was still...not that easy. We had hoped. We had failed. We are both better off now. The best part of my experiences with my live in girlfriend were different on in internal level of commitment then the worst times in my first marriage.
Altho we said we loved each other and were committed to our relationship, missing that final public commitment did leave some things unchanged.
It is very fair to not use marriage as a test of the strength of a relationship. True friends will "get" you. However, it is unfair to expect the public to value your relationship as strong or stronger then a marriage when you never made that public commitment.
If you don't value that public recognition, good on ya. I certainly don't believe there is only one correct way to live.
Posts: 2445 | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Originally posted by BannaOj: Well Tom, you might get tax breaks, but you're also more statistically likely to be broke and depressed.
Anecdotally, I'd say this doesn't apply to me. Having kids gives me a purpose (supporting them). Having a purpose keeps me on track with work and other personal things. Keeping me on track allows me to excel (I always excel, but the little things tend to keep me down). Being awesome at stuff helps me feel good about myself which is the polar opposite of being depressed.
I'm still broke, though, but I'd be broke anyway if I was single because I probably wouldn't have a job.
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
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I really dislike the words wife and husband and how they taste. I have trouble seeing myself as a future wife. It has weird connotations for me. Maybe I'd rather be a partner or something like that. I don't know.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I also think the only life-changing irrevocable commitment in a relationship is kids. For sure the only way I'd ever get married again is if I found someone and we decided we wanted to have children together. I just don't really see any point to it otherwise, for myself that is.
Posts: 957 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: I really dislike the words wife and husband and how they taste. I have trouble seeing myself as a future wife. It has weird connotations for me. Maybe I'd rather be a partner or something like that. I don't know.
OMG Syn.. that's so horrible and sad =(
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001
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Why? I don't much like those words either, 'wife' especially. I don't like thinking of myself as somebody's wife, I'd much rather be a partner.
Posts: 957 | Registered: Aug 2002
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I like being a wife, being called a wife and being introduced as one, in my current marriage. In my previous marriage, the term wife came with a huge ball and chain and a mean ogre.
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I think marriage is, on the functional level, how you enter mainstream society and strengthen it. You do give others a piece of ownership in your relationship--a chance to be a part of it. You gain your spouse's family, and they welcome you into theirs. There is a uniting factor that happens across many lines, not just between you and your new spouse. And I think that unity is very important to society. It is the cement that holds society together.
How you get married isn't as important--whether it's a full-on bridesmaids and best man ceremony or just a short ceremony where you publicly recognize your commitment to each other. What's important is that you are bringing your families, friends, and society together through your relationship. Basically, you let them recognize your relationship along with you.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
Between this thread and the "good enough" thread I'm starting to wonder if maybe we shouldn't outlaw straight marriage(*). Y'all have farked it up more than the gays ever could.
Pix
(*) I'm obviously not serious because I'm in a straight marriage and lovin' it.
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001
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No, of course not. However, there is a certain level of acceptance into the fabric of established societal organization that doesn't come until you are married. You become part of the glue of society, in other words. A stabilizing force, something the rest of society centers around. And are treated as such, more than you were before you were married. I am, of course, speaking of how it felt to me, and what I've observed of family and friends getting married.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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I think it (especially Mormon society) can be that way, but it doesn't mean it's right and it doesn't reflect truth. Saying it like it is only perpetuates the error.
There are lots of self-centered married unmakers of society and lots of community- and family-centered unmarried makers of society.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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I think it's still true of society in general, although not as explicitly acknowledged in most places anymore. I am biased toward a predominately Mormon culture now, true, but I don't see it as that different than the roots of society outside the intermountain west (is there any society that's the baseline?). I grew up well away from the Wasatch range and didn't see it much differently then.
I agree that married people can be a much more destructive force in society. They are given a lot of trust, and don't always use it well. It is disruptive to many more people when a married couple in some way betrays the trust society has placed in them.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote: What's important is that you are bringing your families, friends, and society together through your relationship
And that is the best explanation I have as far as "why not" get married, when it comes to my relationship.
I have no desire for any of those things to be brought together through our relationship!
And we are arguably benefiting society, because we are homeowners and pay property taxes even though we have no kids.
Posts: 11265 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: Between this thread and the "good enough" thread I'm starting to wonder if maybe we shouldn't outlaw straight marriage(*). Y'all have farked it up more than the gays ever could.
Pix
(*) I'm obviously not serious because I'm in a straight marriage and lovin' it.
I know you weren't being serious, but I like the idea of making all civil ceremonies civil unions, not marriages -- for straight as well as gay. We can leave the blessing of marriage to the churches to bestow.
I had a religious wedding ceremony in a synagogue, so I'm married. In addition, I have a civil marriage certificate. It wouldn't bother me in the slightest, nor would it affect the quality of my relationship with my husband if that civil marriage certificate was a civil union certificate.
Posts: 10397 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
From the experiences of me and my friends, I can attest that the legal recognition of a relationship does make you feel differently. It's real, then.
As for reasons, ask gays who aren't allowed to marry about the reasons. I think they have a whole list of them. One I can think of is if your partner is in an accident or incapacitated, his or her family gets to make their medical choices, not you. Another is insurance. Families pay less per person. Another is family plans on everything from gym memberships to cell service.
Be aware that in some states, if you put the person down as your spouse on insurance forms and stuff, they automatically become your legal spouse. Also, living together as husband and wife for a certain length of time makes you legally husband and wife in most states. The time varies I think.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:Be aware that in some states, if you put the person down as your spouse on insurance forms and stuff, they automatically become your legal spouse. Also, living together as husband and wife for a certain length of time makes you legally husband and wife in most states.
Common-law marriages are only recognized in certain states -- only 12 don't have limitations that exclude most.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I won't be getting married until I feel my parents are ready to accept my choice in a husband. This may take another 3-5 years. I've been with my boyfriend for three years. I don't know when I'd choose to get married if they had always been supportive. Before this? Later? That's another life I didn't live. My sister dated her husband for nine years before their marriage which was pushed onto her by her friends and my parents. She did it to appease them. The big benefit for her since her wedding a few years ago is that her husband is now publicly, to my parents, living at their house instead of secretly as before.
A friend of mine has been living with her boyfriend for several years. I asked her what her parents thought of this and she replied in an amused way that her parents are "hippies" and aren't married so they don't mind one bit. In her mini-culture, there is no expectation of marriage and the public-acceptance aspect.
Posts: 1261 | Registered: Apr 2004
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I don't get to deduct rent from my taxes. There's a long standing argument over whether the standard deduction as it currently exists favors married people or not.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Well the standard deduction sure favors married people with one income. By being married, the standard deduction doubled, but the income didn't because my wife is a stay-at-home mom.
Then again, the higher standard deduction is only barely higher than what my itemized deductions would be.
Before marriage, itemizing was always higher, mostly because of charitable contributions. Now the standard deduction is higher, which is almost a demotivator to contribute to charity!
Posts: 454 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: Between this thread and the "good enough" thread I'm starting to wonder if maybe we shouldn't outlaw straight marriage(*). Y'all have farked it up more than the gays ever could.
I know this is supposed to be a joke, but the argument here really bothers me. If something is broken, shouldn't we try to fix it instead of throwing it away?
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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