posted
I'm with Belle-- I think it's great that two five-year-olds went against the rest of the group and the teacher and voted to keep him in the class. I hope my children would do the same.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:I only had one conclusion and that was that if the child is in a "normal" classroom then he is expected to behave like a "normal" child. I don't see how what you said contradicts that conclusion.
If a child had only one leg, would you expect them to participate in all the "normal" physical education activities?
I am fully aware of all the problems that arise for teachers because of main streaming children with severe developmental disorders. At some point the price the rest of the class pays from having a few students who require tons of extra attention warrants considering moving these students to a separate class.
But that point generally isn't in kindergarten. Most children with learning disabilities, ADD or developmental disorders haven't even been identified at kindergarten age. And many children with Aspergers can learn successfully in a normal classroom with the proper help.
Both the school and the parents appear to have been involved in getting this child on track to get proper help. Eventually I'm sure that both the parents and the school would have come to a decision about whether or not his needs were best served in a regular classroom or if he needed some alternative. But that would never have been the choice of the teacher and it certainly is not a question that should ever have been put to his classmates.
Certainly the teacher wasn't out of line in using normal disciplinary measures like sending him to the principals office. But if standing a 5 year old in front of the class and asking all his peers to criticize him, followed by pressuring them all to vote him out of the class is one of her normal disciplinary measures, she should be publicly flogged.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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I remember the first time I saw a teacher being horrible to elementary age students. Thankfully, I never had a teacher like that (that I remember), but I volunteered in a school in Detroit for a little while, and I was absolutely shocked by how the teacher would yell at the kids, say they were stupid - all sorts of things. Really unbelievable. But then, it was an inner city school, and I'm guessing there wasn't such a surplus of applicants for the jobs that they fired teachers for being total jerks.
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Not having severe learning disabilities is very different from not having any learning disabilities.
There is a big difference between a 'free pass' and an appropriate response. For many behaviors due to mental disability, the appropriate response is not punishment, much less exile.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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"Maybe if I can only get him to see what a disruption he is for the other students, he'll stop acting up every minute of every day in class. He clearly doesn't care about what I think--maybe he'll care about what his friends think. I've tried just about everything I can think of...maybe this will work"
She clearly went about it the wrong way, but I don't think she had evil intentions, like some of you are making it out to be. I don't like seeing entire classrooms of students held back in their development and education because of one problem child, and it appears that the rest of the class would like to be learning, too, instead of dealing with the kid.
Posts: 1314 | Registered: Jan 2006
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Interestingly, I found this story here first and *then* discovered the activity on disability blogs.
I sometimes wonder if the creation of "special ed" didn't end up creating a very unrealistic and narrow expectation of what "normal" classrooms should look like.
My schooling began before there was much in the way of special ed (other than totally segregated schools). In my first grade class, we had a girl who was an "elective mute" (didn't talk at all - at least at school), a boy whose clothes seemed to hang off of him and spoke with a drawl - and prone to memorable monologues on things like the booger on his finger. There was the girl who spend most of the day with one hand glued to her face - one finger in her nose and two fingers in her mouth.
By today's standards, I'd be considered kind of weird and I even know the label I'd have. But I really didn't stand out with that kind of competition.
My trip down memory lane aside, there's no defense for the behavior of this teacher. *All* children need some clear expectations and some clearly communicated consequences in terms of willfully failing to meet those expectations. It's called discipline - which isn't a dirty word, but something all kids need.
This wasn't discipline - it was something else entirely.
Posts: 4344 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I have to say that I'm disappointed that no one here seems to be admitting that this article could be very skewed. I'm willing to admit that it's quite possible this teacher acted entirely inappropriately, but I think there's also at least a decent possibility that she just made some minor poor decisions which have been twisted and blown out of proportion.
Let me set up a situation that could quite possibly result in the articles that have currently been linked:
The autistic child is an extreme disruption in the class, impeding all the other children's learning and causing them distress. Now the teacher poses the following question to the class, both to attempt to show the trouble-child the impact he's having and to validate her point that the whole class is suffering: "Class, is 'robbie' making it harder for you to learn?" When 'robbie's friend doesn't raise his hand along with the rest (despite the fact that the teacher knows he was at least as distracted by robbie's antics as the rest) she calls him on it and gets him to reluctantly admit that his friend is impacting his education.
Having the general consensus of the class, and realizing that she is not currently able to handle the child effectively, she send him to the nurse for the rest of the day.
Now sure, a kindergarten teacher should be able to handle this type of thing without ejecting him from class, but we have no idea how extreme his behavior was on that day (or any others for that matter). Also, the "vote" was probably not the best idea, but if it were phrased as above there is little sinister about it, and in some circumstances could prove a useful tool to show the child how bad his behavior is...
Basically we have a couple reports where the only person directly quoted was not there for anything, and is heavily biased towards her child... I'm disappointed that so many people are willing to jump in and condemn someone to hell and whatnot based on such potentially sketchy "evidence."
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1) She didn't just ask for a show of hands on whether he was being disruptive, she had each child say something they didn't like about the kid.
2) Even if your scenario was true it would still be inappropriate. This is kindgergarten, not college, where something like that might work.
3) A teacher that needs the general consensus of a group of 5 year olds to know whether or not she is handling something effectively isn't.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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I am a bit, concerned, about the mother's part in this.
The child is having behavioral issues at school, and at a previous school.
Yet it takes the school to suggest testing for medical reasons.
Then the child faces brutal criticism and embarrasment from his fellow classmates. What does mommy do? She informs the press, send photos, and goes on TV to tell the whole world about her poor mentally challenged (well, probably, we're testing him) deprived son was mentally wounded for life.
He may have been.
But the way mommy is handling this 15 minutes of fame makes me wonder.
You do realize that if the police would have found reason to prosecute for emmotional abuse, the boys name would have been kept from the press. Momma, on the other hand, seems to want to make sure everyone sees it, and possibly hers.
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This is a kindergarten class. Even in this best-case(?) scenario, the teacher is going through the motions of ceding control of the class to a bunch of five-year-olds.
Note to nurse from teacher: I had to send this child here. In the judgment of my esteemed five-year-old colleagues, this child doesn't belong in my classroom.
Of course, the ceding of control was a facade. The kids did what she expected them to do - they dogpiled on the kid in question.
So what was the lesson here?
Posts: 4344 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Dan, I wondered about that. But I didn't see where it said that testing was the school's idea. It's quite possible that she has begged and pleaded her way through two schools trying to get the testing and services her son needs. My own experience with getting my kid tested was a very difficult time for everyone involved, so I guess I can see how it might be the same for her and her son.
I was trying to ask myself what I would do as a parent in this situation, if the police looked the other way, if the principal defended the teacher. I'd probably lawyer up, but not everyone has the means to do that (just like not everyone has the means to do testing on their own, without the state's intervention), so what recourse do you have?
Now like I said, I also wonder about running screaming to the press and printing your kid's name in letters eight inches tall. I just don't know. That poor kid .
Edit: I see it now:
quote:Alex began the testing process in February at the suggestion of Morningside Principal Marcia Cully.
That's interesting. It does say later on, though, that they already had an IEP meeting with the teacher present.
posted
I have a child with some disability in my class, 'J'. I dunno what's wrong with him, but I just know that he won't stop talking. Here's an example: Teacher: Can anyone think of a time you've witnessed bullying? 'J': *raises hand* Teacher: Yes 'J'? Class: No... 'J': Well, um, I was at my dad's house eating popcorn, and Dad switched the channel to Cubo, and the robots were at a party for the blue robot's birthday, and when the pink and yellow robots were at the punchbowl, the orange robot started to bully them. Teacher:...Okayyyyy... He just gives too many details in a story, he just doesn't know when to get to the point.
<Removed teacher's and student's names. --PJ>
[ May 28, 2008, 01:11 AM: Message edited by: Papa Janitor ]
Posts: 87 | Registered: Dec 2007
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Grimace, According to the reports the schools resource officer says the teacher confirmed that the incident took place so your speculations seem unfounded. Certainly if the mother was grossly exaggerating the course of events, the school would be disputing her story and they aren't.
Dan-raven, I see your concern but there is also a much less sinister possibility. The mother started by filing a complaint with the school but got no results. After the state said it would not file criminal charges, she considered a civil suit but her lawyer advises her that the teacher in question has nothing worth suing over and its highly unlikely that the school district would be held liable. Frustrated that this teacher is still in the classroom, that her son is still screaming whenever he gets close to the school and having exhausted her other options, she decides to go to the press. Maybe she even asks for anonymity but the papers aren't willing to run the story without the cute kid picture as a emotional grabber so she relents.
And then maybe she's an attention whore.
As for the fact that the family didn't have the kid evaluated for Aspergers until the school recommended it, that is not at all unusual for kids with high functioning autism. I have friends with a son with Aspergers. He wasn't diagnosed until he was 10 despite the families efforts to figure out what's wrong. Finally a friend of the family who worked in a school and knew kids diagnosed with Aspergers suggested they should have him tested for this disorder. The doctors he had seen before had never suggested it.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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Thank you Dan, for throwing some additional doubt at this story.
dkw, let me revise my scenario:
1) what if she asks "Class, is 'robbie' making it harder for you to pay attention and learn?" "Now for those of you who raised their hands, what has 'robbie' been doing that bothers you?" would it make a difference if he had been actively bothering/assaulting other students and she wanted them to specify these grievances (i.e. maybe he didn't realize that his constant leg twitching was actually kicking the kid next to him or something)
In my understanding, this is not cedeing control to the 5-year-olds it's encouraging them to voice their disquiet about being bothered by someone. This could be a relatively healthy exercise in social interaction (i.e. instead of kicking your brother you explain to him that he's making you mad by taunting you with the toy he won't let you have).
2) Certainly it's probably not the best option for teaching a lesson, and it would work better with older kids, but without the context and actual wording of what went on I really don't think we can immediately say that it was inappropriate.
3) in my scenario the polling is almost certainly more of a reality check for the student than for the teacher. (though I'll admit I left that window open in my explanation).
I'm really just trying to get across that this situation COULD have actually been completely/relatively benign and just twisted to imply all the horrible things that people keep assuming.
note: I keep saying "robbie" because I can't recall the actual boy's name
Posts: 1038 | Registered: Feb 2006
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Luna, you really shouldn't list the full name of the child in your class in your post, especially since you're speculating on a disability that he may or may not have. Imagine if he googled his name and found what you wrote? Or if his aunt or grandmother happens to be a member here? Please edit your post to remove the name, it is not necessary to your point.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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addendum to The Rabbit: i still think that the "confirmation of the event" could easily be "Did you ask the class for a show of hands and elaboration about how disruptive the child was? And did you then send him to the nurse for the rest of the day?"
Again, it's quite possible that this is all an accurate portrayal of things, but what I've seen so far has not convinced me one way or the other.
Posts: 1038 | Registered: Feb 2006
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Grimace, your revised scenario is still missing the fact that these are 5 year olds. They are not developmentally capable of the kind of self-reflection that you are positing. Not the kid who is being disruptive, and not the kids who are being disturbed, if indeed they are being disturbed. "What is robbie doing that is keeping you from learning?" is way too abstract a question for a kindergarten class. And the idea that a 5 year old, especially one with an autism-spectrum disorder, could constructively process that kind of criticism and come to a realization of his problem behavior is ridiculous.
Edit: and anyone who is licensed to teach kindergarten should know enough about child development to know that.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:I only had one conclusion and that was that if the child is in a "normal" classroom then he is expected to behave like a "normal" child. I don't see how what you said contradicts that conclusion.
If a child had only one leg, would you expect them to participate in all the "normal" physical education activities?
I'm talking about disrupting the class, not participation. A child with behavior problems should receive the same punishments as a "normal" child. That's all I was saying. The only point I was making in my first post was "While the child may have deserved to be disciplined, the teacher was way out of line." I don't really see why it was a controversial statement.
EDIT: I just reviewed my posts. Perhaps people read more into my statement because I used an aggressive tone? Anyways, just use this post as my "official" position.
Posts: 1327 | Registered: Aug 2007
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<shrug> keep in mind that I'm a complete educational lay-person, but when my nieces and nephews act up (admittedly none of them are developmentally disabled) I (and their parents) will often try a tactic similar to this (though I admit my wording above is almost certainly too precise/technical). Making it less a question of "you're breaking my arbitrary rules" and more a question of "see how your misbehavior made your brother trip and sprain his ankle." or making the child realize that what they thought was "harmless" waving of their arms ended up smacking their friend in the face and causing a bloody nose (even if they didn't notice it at the time).
But as to it's effectiveness: apparently the fact that the kid's one friend voted against him seems to have had an impact (at least on the mother if not the child) so if it was a more benign questioning, then maybe it had the desired effect. Again, I'm probably thinking too highly of these kid's processing powers and comprehension, but at different ages a friend/classmate saying something has a very different power than an adult.
Posts: 1038 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:A child with behavior problems should receive the same punishments as a "normal" child.
Possibly-- but a child with behavior problems should have an IEP that addresses triggers and has guidelines for avoiding them and possibly additional accomodations or reinforcements, and it should be followed.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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I also wonder about parents when I hear horror stories like these, where something egregiously wrong happens to their child, and then at the end of the article is a line like "The child goes back to school on Monday."
I mean...??? If it's bad enough that you called the paper about what Teacher did to your kid, then why are you taking this kid back there?
Of course, I am biased--I homeschool my kids.
And it's entirely possible the kid's mother doesn't have the resources--or doesn't think she has the resources--to do anything but send her child back into a bad situation, which I think it still will be even if the offending teacher gets reassigned to another classroom.
It's too bad. There are good teachers out there, but stories like these are all too common. I think part of the flaw is in the structure of public school--but then, again, I'm biased.
Posts: 575 | Registered: Jan 2004
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Public Law 94-142 (federal law) states that all children have a right to a free public education in the least restrictive environment.
The "least restrictive environment" clause basically means that schools (and teachers) are not allowed to remove a student from their class without proving that the student cannot function in a normal environment. I don't know how that works on a day to day basis, as opposed to actual enrollment in the class.
(Lawyers may weigh in here...)
It seems to me that while it may be perfectly appropriate for a teacher to ask the nurse (or whoever) to take a child that's disrupting class, this should merely be a "time out," not a punishment (I know, a lot of people use time out as punishment, but it's supposed to be a behavior modification, not a punishment).
Oh, and yeah, Luna, edit your post.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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From everything in the article it seems clear that the the principals office rather than the nurses station would have been the normal route for punishment.
The article doesn't say that the boy was sent to the nurses statement as punishment. In fact it doesn't say that the teacher even sent him to the nurses station, he may have just run out of the door to find the nurse who had previously treated him kindly.
There is however another possibility about why he was at the nurses station. He may have started crying, it certainly would have been a very normal response for a 5 year old. I suspect that crying children are a fairly common thing in kindergartens and it may be a standard procedure to send a child who is crying to the nurse. The nurse could then check to make sure the child wasn't injured or sick and help the child calm down before going back to class. The nurse seeing how upset the boy was and how strongly he didn't want to go back to class may have let him stay there until it was time to go home.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
The nurse's station may have also been the designated spot for him to go when he was out of control, per his IEP, if the school did not have a time out room.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Belle: . . . you don't get to turn kids away because you don't like the way they behave.
quote:Originally posted by Glenn Arnold: The "least restrictive environment" clause basically means that schools (and teachers) are not allowed to remove a student from their class without proving that the student cannot function in a normal environment.
Actually we (teachers in Osceola County, the neighboring county to the one in which this event occurred) have the right to demand that a disruptive student be removed from our classes and not returned until the disruption has been dealt with. It's a very rarely used right, though.
-o-
When I was in second grade or so, a substitute teacher told me in front of a class that I was a nerd. She didn't mean it as a compliment; this was back in the seventies when "nerd" was definitely not a compliment. I was a pretty disruptive little kid too. We didn't have words like "Asperger's." We had words like "nerd." :-\
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
Why should a child with behavior problems receive the same punishments as a 'normal' child? I would prefer children receive punishments (or other responses) appropriate to helping them overcome their difficulties. That will not be the same for all children, even among 'normal' children.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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Icarus, read the next line after what you quoted.
As I said, it's perfectly appropriate to put a child in time out. It's not alright to have the class gang up on the child and kick him out of class.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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I'm talking about neither one nor the other. I'm not talking about time out. I have the right to insist that a child be removed from my class indefinitely.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Originally posted by fugu13: Why should a child with behavior problems receive the same punishments as a 'normal' child? I would prefer children receive punishments (or other responses) appropriate to helping them overcome their difficulties. That will not be the same for all children, even among 'normal' children.
Fine. Same class/severity of punishments.
Posts: 1327 | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Originally posted by TheGrimace: <shrug> keep in mind that I'm a complete educational lay-person
Which might be relevant, neh? Several of the people you're arguing with have training and/or experience as classroom teachers.
quote:Originally posted by TheGrimace: Making it less a question of "you're breaking my arbitrary rules" and more a question of "see how your misbehavior made your brother trip and sprain his ankle." or making the child realize that what they thought was "harmless" waving of their arms ended up smacking their friend in the face and causing a bloody nose (even if they didn't notice it at the time).
And that is very, very different than public humiliation. Assuming you don't survey random passersby to make the point to your nieces and nephews. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Glenn Arnold, Icarus is talking about a legal right. Whether or not one thinks it's a moral right is a different matter. I think it's an important right, too. Maybe less so in kindergarten (although the teethmark bruises left on my arm by a 7-year-old through kevlar would suggest it's not entirely unreasonable), but definitely by high school where some of the students might be much bigger and stronger and angrier than I, it's very important that teachers have protection.
Ic, how does that work in real life? Are there guidelines for what is considered too disruptive, or is it case-by-case?
Posts: 2849 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Y'know, I was going to make some flippant comment about not finding the immunity idol. But after reading the article, all I can think is "Jeez! Poor kid!"
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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In real life, you'd have to be unbelievably desperate to use that provision, because it gets taken as an admission that you lack the ability to control your classroom. I know that it gets used, I know that our union reminds us every year that we have that right, but I don't know of anybody who has used it. (Keep in mind that "indefinitely" does not mean "permanently.")
When I have had a horrid student who disrupted the hell out of my class, I found it more productive to just apply my discipline policy, which resulted in frequent referrals and thus frequent trips to the office, and this frequent suspensions. In one case, all the way until that student threatened to vandalize my car and got expelled for it.
I'd be more likely to use that provision if I felt personally threatened.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
This is truly sick! I think this teacher has major issues... what does she think Kindergarten is??? Survivor??????
No matter how awful the kid is, you don't "vote" on his behavior. All that's doing is encouraging kids to think it's ok to pick on other people. Honestly, she's VERY lucky this kid has good parents. What if he was one of those kids whose parents leave guns around the house... her behavior could have had some serious consequences if the kid decided to vote his class out instead!
I also cannot believe the state didn't think this was emotional abuse. What more did they want to have happen?
Posts: 1321 | Registered: Jun 2006
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Threads, I think you're just going to find yourself backing even further into a corner. Some students will correct their behavior with a mild scolding. Others won't correct their behavior without significantly larger disciplinary measures.
How do you justify your stance?
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:Maybe she even asks for anonymity but the papers aren't willing to run the story without the cute kid picture as a emotional grabber so she relents.
I could see them asking for pictures but if the newspaper insisted she put her minor child's name in the story, well, there must just be something in the water in that town because it seems no one* has a lick of sense about how to do their job.
*This would be hyperbole.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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This is JenniK posting as Kwea because I'm being too lazy to log out and back in.
My nephew had a teacher for 3rd grade who chose him as her special child to humiliate and make his life a living hell for that particular year. (Apparently she did this every year, selecting one child to single out.) He had been tested in 3 different schools (they had moved several times)for learning disabilities at this time, but nothing had been found. The first week of school she sent a report home in his parent notebook (The schools has each kid take it home each week for a parent to view comments, commendations, and concerns from teachers. The parent has to sign it and send it back with the kid.) saying "HE WILL FAIL!" in big red letters. He saw this and decided the first week of school that no matter what he did she would fail him, so why should he bother even to try. She hounded him so much that he would leave her classroom and even tried to lock himself in his locker! He spent most of his days that year in the principals office - where he completed all of his work at a little desk with no problems at all. He is now in 6th grade at an alternative school where he is excelling. My sister continued to get him tested and he apparently has a very rare learning disability where he cannot take what he has just learned/heard/read and put it into his own words. There are other symptoms, but it took a teacher with 30 years of testing (who had seen it only once before) to catch it. Instead of being in a class of 32 with 1 teacher he is now in a class of 8 with 2 teachers and his grades have improved so much his mom let him play youth basketball.
Back to the 3rd grade teacher....she had chosen 1 child to bully every year. I know this because she had a teacher's aide (Aimee) in her classroom, one of my good friends, who had been the recipient of her bullying years before. Aimee reported to my mom what she had seen in the classroom - which lead to a meeting with my mom (an educator), my sister, the principal, VP, the teacher, the aide, guidance counselor, myself, and a few others. The teacher was retiring after the end of the next year, but she couldn't answer my question: "If you hate children so much, why did you become a teacher?" She ignored me. Aimee told the principal that since her own daughter would be in 3rd grade the next year "they better damned well NOT put her in THAT WOMAN'S class" because she didn't want her to be put through hell the way she was! (Aimee was switched out of her classroom that day.) My nephew passed that year and then went on to his new school where he is excelling academically!
On another note, since he has an IEP my sister thought it wrong to suspend her daughter for 3 days because she threatened to hit another child (who had first threatened her), while my nephew got suspended for only 1 day for punching another kid in the face and breaking his nose! She didn't see that such a punishment would deter him from doing it again, that it instead would say that because he was "special needs" it was ok to do it since you only get a 1 day suspension! (Of course he got his punishment at home with not being able to watch tv or play video games for a month from his mom!)
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
I've taught young children before. I'm actually pretty good with disruptive behavior from just one or two kids. It's kind of like a dance, you wait for the disruptive one to send things in a tangential direction, and you gently, circularly guide the discussion back to where you want it. I admit I think this technique that the teacher used is a cheap trick, since you're the teacher, and therefore, usually, the one with the power. I didn't actually realize that there were two kids who voted for him. That says, to me, that the teacher didn't plan this out, and was responding from emotion/impulse/desperation versus planning it. That's a terrible thing, to act out of impulse with a disruptive child. She needs more training, badly.
However, I'd still like to know how many years the teacher has been teaching, how much experience she has with developmental issues, how loved (or not) she has been by students in the past, etc. She may actually be competent, and this may have simply been a "perfect storm" situation, with a disruptive kid, a lack of training, a really bad day, and a personality conflict all rolled into one. She definitely needs more training, though. There are experts who can teach almost any teacher how to deal productively with this type of behavior, if the teacher is willing to learn.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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Calaban "There is a distinction between a teacher discussing alternative options for schooling with the childs parents and bringing about a social hazing like this."
"The first is appropriate, the second is contrary to furthering the goal of helping the child in question achieve social integration."
I agree with Calaban and others who have sense expressed similar positions.
If the kid was causing problems, and likely he was, then the teacher needs to address those problems in an appropriate way. 'An appropriate way' is NOT to ostracize and humiliate the child.
Now some have projected a softer version of the scenario in which the teacher was merely trying to illustrate to the student how his behavior was disrupting the class in a detrimental way. If that had been done, it would have probably been all right, but that is not the framework that this teacher used. She essentially said, we hate you and we wish you would leave.
The right approach, if this approach was being used, would have been to say, Alex your behavior is causing other students not to learn. It is hurting us all. If you don't believe me, we will ask your friends. I don't see 5 years olds a being particularly articulate, so the responses would probably not have been as hurtful as 'tell us why you don't like Alex'.
Then the teacher should have re-enforced to Alex that we do like you and we are your friend, but we need your cooperation so that we can all learn and have fun together.
I think most would have considered THAT approach acceptable. But as the teacher seems to have done it, I can't imagine a more thoroughly inappropriate action on her part.
A better approach, if the student wasn't simply being annoying, but was truly damaging the educational process, would have been to work with the parents and the administration to get this student what ever help he needed, or to learn to effectively apply whatever approach would most smoothly integrate the student into the classroom.
Keep in mind that even if it wasn't confirmed that this child had special needs, it was clearly suspected and the teacher was aware of these suspicions. A reasonable and logical teacher would have waited for the results. Once the results were in and it was confirmed as Asperger syndrome, they would have then had some sense of how best to proceed to get Alex comfortably integrated into the classroom.
So, we have several far more reasonable and logical approaches to solving the problem than humiliating a student and making him think everyone hate him.
If I were one of the parents of a kid who had been coerced into voting out a fellow student, I would be personally humiliated by knowing my child was forced into such a hurtful action. And as a parent (which I actually am not) would not be sure if I wanted such a hurtful spiteful vindictive teacher continuing to teach my child.
My point is that regardless of what you think about the validity of what motivated this teacher, there were many many more and far better ways to handle the problem than the one she used.
quote:If the kid was causing problem, and likely he was, then the teacher needs to address those problems in an appropriate way. 'An appropraite way' is NOT to ostracize and humiliate the child.
It's not clear from what was presented how the teacher previously tried tp address this problem. It is possible that she really did try a whole range of things and was met with no success with the child and no cooperation and even obstruction from the parents.
That wouldn't make what she did right by any stretch, but I think there is pretty big difference between her doing this as a primary response and it being something she tried out of desperation after trying everything else she could to think of to deal with this chronically disruptive and poorly behaved child.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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Here is a link to "The Early Show" report with video. We can get some sense of the child's behavior from the video, though not being acquainted with 5 year olds, I'm not sure how it compares.
As far as the mother going to the press, I think she did this after the administration and the police were unresponsive. Most people are powerless to effect an entrenched and tightly closed administration like a school. When there is trouble in a school, there is a massive public relations need to sweep it under the rug and give it a spin that very much minimizes the problem.
I remember discussing case shere in this group where crimes were committed against students and even after the parent's insistence, the administration refuse to call the police or cooperate with any investigation.
Bad publicity and civil legal action are sometimes the only way to get an effective response out of a very closed and tight school administration.
Now, I'm going to go back and edits some of the many typo's I see in my previous post.
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posted
Are they kittens' tongues? Because the little fuballs don't need tongues now. Being dead and all.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
So, Jon Boy, is the apostrophe that is bothering you?
Naturally, 'typo' is short for 'typographical error' which usually refers to printed text, but also applies, in a broader sense, to all written communication.
The apostrophe indicates that letters have been left out, just a the apostrophe in "Can't" indicates that the letter 'O' had been left out.
Or were you biting your tongue for other reasons?
To MrSquicky, who said it was not clear that other means and methods were not tried. To that I say, it's not clear that other means and methods WERE tried.
But what is clear is that a problem was suspected, and the answer or confirmation of that potential problem was on its way. Common sense and reason would have said wait for the diagnosis, which would have in turn indicated methods for dealing with the problem.
I do agree though, that the teacher, herself, has not, and probably will not be allowed to, publicly air her side of the actions.
Despite any actions she may have previously taken, and despite any underlying motivation or logic she may have had, her actions were wholly wrong, ill-conceived, and very poorly executed.
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quote:Common sense and reason would have said wait for the diagnosis, which would have in turn indicated methods for dealing with the problem.
And what about the other children in the class? Is it fair to them to do nothing and have their experience being constantly disrupted for however long it takes for a diagnosis and treatment plan? What if the diagnosis comes back saying that there isn't really anything neurologically wrong, he's just hasn't learned how to behave?
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Again, I'm not saying that what she did wasn't wrong no matter what the circumstances. However, when people are describing the teacher as being spiteful, mean, and vindictive, I think they are operating on assumptions of the facts of the situation that may not be warranted.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
Scott: Why on earth would I bite dead kitten tongues? That's disgusting.
BlueWizard: Yes, I was razzing you over the misplaced apostrophe. It's true that apostrophes are used in some words to indicate elided letters, but they certainly aren't used every time letters are missing. If they were, we'd have d'r instead of dr. and a't'm' instead of ATM. And anyway, I'd say that typos is simply the plural of typo, not an elided form of typo[graphical error]s.
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