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Strider-- I second PSI Teleport's advice on trying out a vegan diet-- I didn't really learn to cook until I went completely vegan, and it's really not difficult at all-- just remember that beans, rice, fresh vegetables (I love snacking on carrots), fruit (lots of fruit!), whole-grain bread, peanut butter, chips and salsa, non-butter popcorn (I have a weakness for kettle corn), hummus/pita bread, cold cereal with soy milk, and nuts are all your friends and most of the foods just mentioned can be considered convenience stuff, requiring no prep. My girlfriend turned me on to chewy French baguettes dipped in olive oil with a pinch of salt and garlic, which I eat all the time (and is a great source for your omega-3 intake). Don't stress about nutrients. If you decide to try out this experiment (and I hope you do), take a multivitamin and you'll be fine-- there's more than enough B-12 in a typical multi, which I think is the main benefit for veggies.
You mentioned that you're doing some athletics. I'm a multi-sport endurance person, and I think being on a vegan diet can benefit people that are very active. Aside from lowering one's unnecessary fat intake drastically, there are some activity-specific benefits that people usually don't think about. Like, runners often experience upset stomach, or at least elevated (in my case terrible) gas while hitting the pavement. In my case, eliminating dairy completely (this is back before I was totally vegan) made it go away and not come back.
You'll feel good. Give it a shot, for a little while at least. It's not hard, and if you end up keeping vegan for any length of time, I think you'll notice your overall health and fitness shooting up like crazy. It sounds like you're already doing things intelligently health-wise as far as meat goes, starting with heavy reduction (though speaking as a vegan I admit to hoping you go totally veggie, but I never push my s*** [of any sort] on anyone), but the very best health alteration you can make to your diet on that omni -> veggie continuum is snipping out the dairy. Cheese is pretty much pure fat and salt, but that's the thing that I've heard so many people say they can't give up. Honestly, it's not hard, once you get into healthy-eating-thinking mode.
If you're interested in trying that out, and have any specific questions about managing the vegan-athletic thing, feel free to ask.
Posts: 4 | Registered: Jul 2009
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Since this thread was last current, I've gone to a completely vegan whole foods diet. The book "The China Study" convinced me to try it, and within a few days, before I had even converted over totally, I already felt a lot better. I decided not to waste any food I'd already bought, so I gradually used up all my milk, cheese, eggs, and meat when I first started on the diet.
I do get less protein overall than I used to get, I think. Now I don't seem to have any trouble with it, though. I think the key was cutting out all animal products. It turns out that they cause a lot of my inflammation. So I got something like 20% better within the first six weeks. (Better from my lupus/fibromyalgia autoimmune disorder, I mean.) I was sad when I didn't continue getting better at the same rate. Now I can't see any additional changes, except my skin is softer, my nails are harder and more resilient, and my hair is also softer. Many vegans report these improvements when they swap over to eating zero animal products.
It's also true that inflammation is implicated in heart disease, high blood pressure, diabetes, and cancer, and eating this way lowers your risk for all of the above. I was able to get off my proton pump inhibitor that I took for Barrett's esophagus too. Eating vegan keeps your whole body's pH more basic, apparently, which is also beneficial in a number of ways.
After a few months on the diet, I sometimes would cheat a bit in various ways. Once I ate ice cream, and another time had a club sandwich with meat. But what's interesting is that the benefits I've seen have only slightly decreased from occasional cheating. I still feel like it's doing me a world of good to eat this way, even if every 2 or 3 weeks I eat something not on the diet.
I do base my diet around beans and rice, for the most part, or rice and soy protein isolate. I usually cook once a day at dinner, and save leftovers for the following day's lunch. Breakfast is usually some sort of fruit. An apple or avocado, or perhaps a bit of cantaloupe.
A typical meal, the one I fixed last night, would be stir frying 2 lbs of frozen vegatables plus some sesame seeds, flax seeds, and a can of sliced water chestnuts in some olive oil, sprinkling soy protein isolate about 3 scoops or 75 g protein on top and cooking it along with the veggies as a sort of breading. I use soy sauce as a way to cool the skillet so the stuff doesn't burn, as well as adding a wonderful flavor and more protein. When this is cooked well, I add some previously cooked brown rice and continue to stir it around, adding more soy sauce as needed, until it's all hot and steamy and done. Sometimes I'll add some cooked chick peas to give it more substance. The result is a one-skillet meal that covers all my nutritional bases, and only takes about 15 minutes to make.
I like to choose colorful vegetables because they're the most nutritious. So it might be broccoli, spinach, bell pepper in red, orange, yellow, and green, baby carrots, or could be onions, cauliflower, or pretty much any vegetable mixture that sounds good to me that day. I eat variations on this dish quite often.
I settled on using frozen vegetables instead of fresh because they're already washed and cut up, they last a long time in the freezer and don't rot, and because the price seems to be comparable. Sometimes I use fresh vegetables instead, but then it's a lot more work washing and cutting or chopping them, and if I don't get around to using them in time, they rot and I have to throw them out.
Taking into account the price of fresh vegetables, the amount of stuff you cut off them before you eat them, and the chance that you'll have to toss them from not using them soon enough, does the price work out even? I can't really tell. It seems to me to be close. I know fresh veggies have probably a better flavor and more nutrition, but I think the frozen ones are pretty good too. Anyone else have any opinion on that?
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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The vegetarians I've known in my life do it very badly.
It seems to me that if you're going to do vegetarian right, you need to completely rethink your approach to food. Meat can't be the focus of the meal as it so often is in American cooking. Yet those I know who have gone vegetarian essentially take the same recipes they used before and use a meat substitute. The soy burger is the primary example of this.
One vegetarian I knew a few years back didn't like vegetables. I think my mouth fell open before I point-blank asked her what she ate and she said cheesy fries. I could believe it, too. She didn't look healthy.
Another friend of mine tries, I think, but I've seen her serve meals of pasta with a side of pasta. She uses soy as a substitute for meat and rarely incorporates beans or nuts. Her hair and teeth are suffering and so are her children's.
I tend to have meat-free dinners twice a week. These are almost always bean dishes. (Although last night it was fettuccine alfredo...no good protein source and I was pretty hungry afterward. Next time, I'll put pine nuts on the side salad.)
I'm not a fan of going vegetarian, low-carb, or any of the rest. I feel best when I eat a varied diet and *exercise.* Meat is simply over consumed. A serving of beef, for example, is 3 oz. I haven't seen a steak at a steak house under 7 oz. A serving of poultry or fish is 4 oz. A serving of pork is 2 oz with the fat trimmed. We only need 2-3 servings of protein a day, and that also includes eggs, nuts, and beans. So when you have a great big burrito with beans and chicken, that's all you need for the day.
After that, you need to learn to eat fruits and vegetables.
That's what I've been trying to do lately -- not to eliminate anything from my diet but instead trying to focus on fruits and vegetables. I like to think about dieting in a positive sense. Instead of cutting or restricting (something that inevitably makes me want to binge on the thing I'm keeping myself from eating) I think about pro actively incorporating good foods.
Pro actively focusing on fruits and vegetables is very expensive, btw, although my fridge looks very pretty.
The most recent thing I've fallen upon -- syrups made from fruits instead of high fructose corn syrup. I'm turning some fresh blueberries into blueberry sauce this morning. Sprinkle some almonds on top for a serving of protein in the morning. And morning protein is very important. Even very carnivorous Americans for some reason tend to skip the protein at the most important meal of the day.
Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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I love how this thread gets bumped! Thanks Invincible, much of the suggestions you mention I have in fact been doing. I tend to peck at fruits, veggies, and nuts throughout the day(i'm a serial snacker), and cook at least one large meal each day(making lots of leftovers to store in the fridge and freezer).
Last time back in November I had just gone fully Vegetarian(after slowly weening myself off meat over 6 months). It's been a bit over 9 months now without any meat and it's going fantastic.
Successes
I always ate relatively healthy in general, but vegetarianism has motivated me to try new foods that I had never really eaten before, and so I've opened myself up to much more variety than in my meat eating days.
I'm cooking a lot more. Though this is also in part due to the fact that this switch over coincided not only with wanting to go vegetarian, but wanting to more actively make ethical life choices. This has included cooking more from scratch and buying less processed and prepackaged foods.
I don't know that I subjectively feel any healthier, but I certainly feel happier!
Failures
Still not a vegan. Invincible nailed it right on the head...I would miss my cheese SOOOOOOOO much. I have greatly reduced my egg consumption as the more I thought about the egg industry the harder it was for me to continue eating them. I still drink milk, but since I rarely drink milk(or when I do use it in very small amounts) this one hasn't bothered me so much ethically. I do think I could probably make the switch to a soy type milk and probably be okay(except for in White Russians...you will never take away my milk/cream). But cheese...i just can't do it...not yet.
Replacing meat with Quorn. This was more of an early failure. I was using Quorn product a lot to supplement my diet, and replacing dishes where i would normally use chicken or ground beef with Quorn. This was going against the whole prepackaged foods part of things. This has become less of an issue as time has gone on. I still use Quorn product, but rarely as a replacement for meat in some sort of dish, and mostly from time to time when I'm too lazy or tired to cook something.
Tatiana, I can't really comment on the frozen veggies. I've been trying to buy my veggies as much as possible from local farmer's markets. But when I don't, I buy fresh veggies from the supermarket. I've never really thought in detail about the differences and benefits of fresh vs. frozen, but it just seems that fresh taste better. Though there is a certain percentage that always gets thrown out when going the fresh route. I've also been told about nutrient loss when freezing veggies, but I've never confirmed this.
edit - oh, i've also found a vegetarian club in the area. They meet once a month and do a vegetarian pot luck dinner. The food is amazing, and i've been introduced to so many new dishes. Everyone brings recipes(partly for copying purposes, and partly so people know whether dishes are veggie or vegan). Discussions usually take place afterwords around some topic in vegetarianism and they are always informative.
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
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I can't agree on the spinach. Even cooked, I think it tastes MUCH better fresh. But I have nightmares of soggy wet spinach on my lunch tray in 1st-3rd grade. Frozen spinach is, at least, edible, but doesn't hold a candle to fresh. And I can find fresh spinach year round for not too much more than frozen. So when I have a recipe that calls for frozen spinach, like the garlic and feta pizza I'm making from scratch on Saturday, I substitute fresh.
Strider -- I'm glad you're happy with your new lifestyle. I love cooking from scratch and the more I eliminate processed or packaged foods, the happier I am with my meals. I'm not entirely clear on your reasons for eliminating meat but I think you should focus on your successes and not consider it a failure that you're not going to the extreme of veganism.
Or maybe I'm not understanding your rationale for wanting to make that choice. I missed this thread when it started last year (I think I was busy with a newborn) and skimming through here I'm getting vague impressions of dissatisfaction with the way we produce meat and associated products?
Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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One of my biggest annoyances with the period we were experimenting with vegetarianism was the number of vegetarian "meat" products that seemed to say, "Hey, look! If you take a soy protein, and add soy sauce to it, it's just like meat!"
*sigh* No, no it's not, guys. Please stop doing that.
'Course, quorm wasn't available when we were doing this. And for what it's worth, Morning Star's vegetarian breakfast sausages aren't half bad. Still, I'd much rather have felafel or hummus or feijoda or chili with rice than most of what was on offer in the "vegetarian" section of the local supermarket. As long as you like beans, there's a lot of protein options available.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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Strider-- I've been using Silk creamer for cooking when I need something thickly milk-like, like when I had a hankering for mashed potatoes last week (Earth Balance margarine works quite well for that) and that or something similiar would be great for your White Russians. This stuff cut with regular soy milk (make sure you're not using the sugary kind) makes a good replacement for cow milk in just about every cooking application except when you need it to stay uniform with scalding temparatures (here the soy protein denatures in a different fashion from dairy, by becoming slightly grainy) but I can't think of a time this would happen unless you happen to like your hot cocoa burned. As for regular soy vs cow milk, my main application for soy milk is in cold cereal, where (and I swear it's true, and naysayers need only test it out) soy milk is *better* than cow milk.
Posts: 4 | Registered: Jul 2009
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Christine, I certainly don't consider myself a failure...and even in my failure section I talked about how certain aspects have improved over time. Like I said, i'm really happy, I just can also point out areas where there is room for improvement, objectively.
As for my reasons, it's a confluence of forces.
1) the ethics of eating animals. killing a conscious life for the purpose of eating food, when it's not necessary. plus the whole system that revolves around it. The conditions the animal is living in, how it is treated. it's life and it's conscious subjective experience. how it is killed. etc...that's probably the primary factor
2) the chemicals that are pumped into these animals as well as the chemicals that are pumped into the foods they are fed and their unnatural diets.
3) the impact on our environment and natural resources. whether it's the amount of land mass devoted to meat production(both for the animals and the crops needed to feed the animals). or the energy used in growing all the food for the animals to eat. the gas used to transport the meat from it's point of origin to the super market, etc...
That's a brief synopsis. I don't know if I'll be a vegetarian my whole life. I don't have any theoretical or philosophical problem with the idea of eating the meat of a dead animal. I can conceivably see myself eating meat if it met certain requirements(i.e. - came from a local, organic farm, treated humanely, killed humanely, etc...), but at least for now I'm not going that route partly because I think we eat too much meat in this country in general and I just want no part of that system for now, and partly because I'd rather err on the side of caution for now till I more fully formulate my views on all this.
It's for those reasons that I consider myself a bit hypocritical to still be consuming dairy. But like I said, I've consciously cut down my egg consumption...and that's one baby step. The same way the decision to go vegetarian had been stewing in my mind for months(years really), and even when I did it, even then I slowly weaned myself off, I think this decision to go vegan will work along similar lines. I must say, some of the vegan dishes I've had at this vegetarian dinner as well as a great vegan restaurant I've found in the area are strongly convincing me I'll be quite happy with a vegan diet.
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
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Sterling-- MorningStar's faux-meat stuff is super salty and fatty, and I'm pretty sure none of those are vegan (they contain milk and eggs).
Homemade meatless burgers ftw, seriously. If I was going for convenience I guess I'd do Amy's "All-American" patties or something, but homemade stuff will nearly always be better. (Eggplant in my burger? Yes please.)
Posts: 4 | Registered: Jul 2009
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Quorn products are also sadly not vegan...but they're so god damn tasty!
Thanks for all the advice Invincibe(and welcome to Hatrack!(unless you're a new alt, and in that case, welcome new alt)), I'd be willing to give the Silk creamer a try and see how it goes. Though I did just receive an email recently talking about something negative to do with Silk products and Dean Foods and that I shouldn't support them. I didn't really read it carefully, so I don't remember exactly why, since it wasn't an issue for me as a milk drinker.
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
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Strider-- I am pretty similiar on my considerations for veganism myself. I was vegan in fact for a while before I went ahead and began to refer to myself that way, for convenience. I am simply not a follower, and labels feel like "following" to me. I began with pretty near veganism, for health considerations, because like most people who are aware of the problems with the food/meat industry, I simply ignored that awareness, until I realized that it's just an accident that I don't know the animals out there getting slaughtered, being pumped dry, being commoditized, as opposed to my own cat, who I love dearly (obnoxious as he can sometimes be). I can't stand the thought of someone doing something awful to my cat (and it makes me emotional right now just thinking of it to type) and so I can't stand the thought of someone doing terrible things to other lives, no different from this little being that I love. Anyway, I'll probably be vegan my whole life. It's the sort of thing I don't foresee ever changing, pretty similiar to how I know I can't *un*know my own atheism (to give you some comparison with something that goes pretty deep).
Posts: 4 | Registered: Jul 2009
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Protein is not about protein, it is about amino acids. Without complete amino acids, the protein you eat isn't fully utilized. (or something like that.)
So, when I say, being a vegetarian is about a search for complete protein, it is really a search for a sufficient variety of proteins that across the span of the week, you get a complete spectrum of amino acids.
Red beans and rice accomplish this because, while they both have protein, each has a different compliment of amino acids. Between the two of them, they come very close to the full spectrum.
So, in a sense, it is right, if you eat a varied diet, you are likely to get the full spectrum of amino acids, and therefore will not suffer a protein deficiency.
As to people who become a vegetarian who think they can get by eating salads all the time. If you doubt that, you don't get out much. I've seen many many people who decided to become vegetarians, who made no effort to study it and understand what was involved. Most became very weak and run down. A few looked like death warmed over.
During my bout with vegetarianism, I had a large circle of other supportive vegetarians around me, read several books, and took cooking classes.
If you go about this half-arsed, you are going to be in trouble very quickly.
As to protein, I over estimated. It seems that 3 to 4 ounces in more than enough. In other parts of the world, especially Asian, vegetables are the center of the meal, with small amounts of meat added.
Here in the USA, we base a meal around a large chunk of meat, with everything else being peripheral. Not a good approach.
There a few foods that qualify as 'complete proteins', but I don't recommend relying on them too heavily. The article at Wikipedia that Mike referenced says that it is far better to take in a variety of protein sources. And all the amino acid spectrum doesn't have to come in one meal. You could eat beans for lunch and rice for dinner, and it would be the same as if you ate red beans and rice together.
posted
To those who are vegetarian and contemplate becoming vegan but think it's too hard, I just want to report that when I gave up animal foods altogether I felt lighter, just better, in my whole body. Like, it seemed to suit me more. I really love the plant foods, and they just give me an overall feeling of health. The tastes of all those varied fruits and vegetables are so delicious. I think my taste buds have blossomed or something. I enjoy eating my food about 1000% more than before. It's just wonderful. At one point I got this feeling from my body (after eating some black eyed peas and brown rice) as though it were healing from something that had been wrong so long I didn't even remember getting sick with it.
So don't sell yourself short. I mean, I thought before starting this diet that it would be difficult and I'd be hungry all the time. I think instead that the equation worked out to be all positive. You might want to give it a try and see if your body feels the same way. If you're needing scientific evidence to convince you, which I certainly did, read "The China Study". I know a lot of endurance athletes swear by this diet. It's very easy. Just eat plant foods that are whole foods, rather than being processed. Get a good variety, and have as much as you want. Avoid oils. That's all there is to it.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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