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Author Topic: Down With The British!
BlackBlade
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Happy 4th of July Folks! A day when we Americans celebrate the one time in our history where we sucked up to the French, mooned the most powerful empire in the world, and said bullocks to foreign authority. It was probably our most punk rock moment. Jets just buzzed my house, and drums are signaling the parade that is marching just outside my doorstep. Pools will be plunged into, ground beef will be devoured, and gunpowder will be ignited!

I'm proud to belong to this country, and share it with those of you who live here.

[Hat] s off to hatrack as well, another American staple.

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bootjes
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Congratulations.

Did you know the Dutch were the first to acknowledge the American flag with a salute from a canon at St. Eustasius? I brought us war with England (and the downfall of our golden age). We as free merchandisers recognised the freedom fighters (and the profits that could be made of it, I think)

So I can share just a little bit.

[Hat]

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ketchupqueen
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Yeah, Free Ireland!

Oh, um... Wait...

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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by ketchupqueen:
Yeah, Free Ireland!

Oh, um... Wait...

Hardly necessary when all the real Irish moved here ages ago. [Wink]
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Starsnuffer
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quote:
Originally posted by bootjes:
I brought us war with England (and the downfall of our golden age).

Wow, you were certainly pivotal in your country's history, and I didn't realize you were so old. [Wink]
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bootjes
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quote:
Originally posted by Starsnuffer:
quote:
Originally posted by bootjes:
I brought us war with England (and the downfall of our golden age).

Wow, you were certainly pivotal in your country's history, and I didn't realize you were so old. [Wink]

Yes, shouldn't have used my intuition.


[Blushing] It brought us war [Blushing]
Hope this isn't a freudian mistake.

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brojack17
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Happy Birthday America.

I hope everyone had a safe and enjoyable 4th. My wife's grandmother is getting married tomorrow and I am going to be the photographer so I have to get to sleep now.

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DecayedCordet
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Though it's technically not the fourth anymore:

"Yonder are the Hessians. They were bought for seven pounds and tenpence a man. Are you worth more? Prove it. Tonight the American flag floats from yonder hill or Molly Stark sleeps a widow!" -- John Stark at the Battle of Bennington in 1777

And I really think that July 4th is not the true independence day because y'know...we DID apologize for the declaration of independence but by then, the loyalists were already picnicking at Lexington and Concord. The true day of independence? June 21, 1788: the fracking constitution was ratified!

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Telperion the Silver
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All glory to the Republic!
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BlackBlade
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Decayed Cordet: How did we apologize for the declaration of independence?
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Nighthawk
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Yesterday they were doing 4th of July fireworks from Micosukee Indian Hotel and Casino.

I couldn't help but think... why are they celebrating American independence? Didn't Americans make their lives miserable to begin with? I mean, granted, there's no guarantee the British would have been any different, but I figured they'd be upset that Americans didn't get their tails whipped by the British.

Or are they simply thanking Americans for making their own capitalism possible?

On a side note, why is at the add at the bottom of this page offering me Chinese women? Not that I mind, but still...

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BlackBlade
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quote:
I couldn't help but think... why are they celebrating American independence? Didn't Americans make their lives miserable to begin with? I mean, granted, there's no guarantee the British would have been any different, but still.
Maybe that's water under the bridge as there's no way to make that wrong right?
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Mucus
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More cynically, maybe this particular group of "Indians" actually IS better off due to Americans.

i.e. while the majority of them, especially the dead, are worse off, this particular group actually makes a pretty good living with low skills being allowed to run a casino

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Bella Bee
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Bloomin' colonials. [Smile]
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Lyrhawn
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quote:
And I really think that July 4th is not the true independence day because y'know...we DID apologize for the declaration of independence but by then, the loyalists were already picnicking at Lexington and Concord. The true day of independence? June 21, 1788: the fracking constitution was ratified!
I suppose you could make that argument, but that isn't Independence Day so much as "Formation of a Constitutional Republic" Day.

September 3rd, 1783 I think is what you're going for. That's the day we signed the Treaty of Paris and officially ended the war with Britain and got our independence.

John Adams always thought July 2nd would go down in history and would be celebrated for years afterwards by Americans as the day we adopted the independence measure.

I guess it's all a matter of perspective.

quote:
Did you know the Dutch were the first to acknowledge the American flag with a salute from a canon at St. Eustasius? I brought us war with England (and the downfall of our golden age). We as free merchandisers recognised the freedom fighters (and the profits that could be made of it, I think)
Without the Dutch it's very likely that America either never would have won the war, or would have foundered and been reconquered after the Treaty of Paris. Dutch loans helped us win the war, and helped us survive immediately after the war ended. They didn't exactly jump on the bandwagon though. Without John Adams' direct efforts with the people of the Netherlands and his unusual actions with the Dutch government, they likely would have continued to treat us the same way that most of the rest of Europe did. Still I think the Dutch get much less credit than they deserve for helping us, and the French get way too much. The French helped us becuase it was in their direct interests to do so, and they planned all along to keep us weak for their own benefit, as the subsequent Quasi-War proves I think. The Dutch on the other hand were convinced to help out of a sense of kinship and moral rightness.
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DecayedCordet
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I mean, it still took forever for countries to actually recognize us. Aren't we truly an independent country when we have an actual governemtn? ...but i see your point Lyrhawn. The olive branch petition was the apology.
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BlackBlade
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quote:
The Dutch on the other hand were convinced to help out of a sense of kinship and moral rightness.
Please, the Dutch loaned us money expecting to get it back with interest. Yes it was admirable of many of them to loan us money when the odds of us winning were so slim, but they, like the French, had alot to gain from a weaker Great Britain.
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bootjes
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:
The Dutch on the other hand were convinced to help out of a sense of kinship and moral rightness.
Please, the Dutch loaned us money expecting to get it back with interest. Yes it was admirable of many of them to loan us money when the odds of us winning were so slim, but they, like the French, had alot to gain from a weaker Great Britain.
We were first of all merchandisers. (not sure we still are). We were known to be a tolerant people (again, not so sure we are now). Tolarance is a good attitude to keep in business with everyone.

So profit was a big part of it.
But also seeing fellow people that fight opressing governements. (our war with spain)

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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:
The Dutch on the other hand were convinced to help out of a sense of kinship and moral rightness.
Please, the Dutch loaned us money expecting to get it back with interest. Yes it was admirable of many of them to loan us money when the odds of us winning were so slim, but they, like the French, had alot to gain from a weaker Great Britain.
99% of the world that knew what was going on in America fully expected us to get whipped soundly. None of them expected we'd actually have a chance. Most of America didn't even think there was a chance. Why lend millions of dollars, really vast sums of money at the time, to an upstart country that might not even be around this time next year? There was a lot more to it than a simple profit margin, or everyone would've been lending us money, which most certainly was not the case.

And while the Dutch might've had a vested interest in seeing the British weaker, they took a considerable risk in helping us with the British on their doorstep and a pitiful fleet to defend themselves with. All for some interest on a loan? The French on the other hand wanted to use us as a puppet. They were fighting an active and longstanding war with the British and using as a proxies to weaken them from afar. They hoped that if we won the war, they'd get exclusive trading rights, and a slew of other benefits while keeping us beholden and attached to them. The Dutch had no such angles.

Away from the government though, the Dutch people felt far more strongly about American independence than any other nation in Europe. They felt a kinship with a people not to distant from themselves, as many Dutch immigrated to America, and the Pilgrims themselves found a friend in the Netherlands before eventually heading for America. Granted they didn't do it freely, it took some cajoling and a PR campaign from John Adams to do it, but when called to action and informed of the situation, the people rose to the occasion, and I think they were a large influence in getting the Dutch government (or rather, governments) to go along with helping us.

Comparing the French and Dutch support is comparing apples and oranges.

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BlackBlade
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I don't think so. If you were 99% sure a venture would not succeed why would you commit your time, talents, and resources to it? The Dutch and French were not fools, both had fought bitter wars with Great Britian, see all three British Dutch conflicts. Brits fighting other Brits was a golden opportunity for them. I don't believe France had altruistic motives regarding America, but neither did the Dutch. The only Dutch colonies in the Americas were taken by the British over a hundred years before the revolution. The pilgrims found a host in the Netherlands but they left because they were not comfortable there, (no fault of the Dutch I might add). The economic benefit that could be had by friendly relations with a new nation outweighed the risk.

I subscribe to the adage, "The next time a nation does something altruistic for another nation will be the first time."

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bootjes
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For more information read The first Salute:

In THE FIRST SALUTE (1988) Tuchman analyzed the American Revolution. She placed the war in the historical context of centuries-long conflicts between England and both France and Holland, and painted a vivid portrait of General George Washington. The title of the book refers to a salute of gunfire on November 16, 1776, when St. Eustatius, a small island in the West Indies, acknowledged a ship flying the flag the red-and-white flag of the Continental Congress, recognizing American sovereignty.

from: http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/tuchman.htm

(My mother was a history teacher and she loved the books of Barbara Tuchman. I inherited them all)

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Lyrhawn
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quote:
I don't think so. If you were 99% sure a venture would not succeed why would you commit your time, talents, and resources to it? The Dutch and French were not fools, both had fought bitter wars with Great Britian, see all three British Dutch conflicts. Brits fighting other Brits was a golden opportunity for them. I don't believe France had altruistic motives regarding America, but neither did the Dutch. The only Dutch colonies in the Americas were taken by the British over a hundred years before the revolution. The pilgrims found a host in the Netherlands but they left because they were not comfortable there, (no fault of the Dutch I might add). The economic benefit that could be had by friendly relations with a new nation outweighed the risk.

I subscribe to the adage, "The next time a nation does something altruistic for another nation will be the first time."

First, off the top of my head: The no-fly in Iraq to protect the Kurds, and NATO intervention in Kosovo. Neither had any practical benefits for us. Those were moral actions, not economic or strategic.

Besides, what economic benefits? The only nation to sign a trade pact with the US before the Peace of Paris was signed was Prussia. And considering the absolute pounding the Dutch got from the British as a result of their actions, I don't think the risk was anywhere near the potential reward.

Doesn't add up to me. There was something more than cold hearted economics at work there.

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