quote:"We want to hold homeschoolers to a standard that doesn't exist in public schools as a whole because it exists in my personal classroom."
Where did you hear that? I for one advocate holding homeschoolers to the SAME standards as public school students and not anything different. The same.
I don't think I've ever suggested homeschoolers should be held to a different standard. Public school students have their reading aptitude measured regularly, all I've suggested is that homeschooled students should be evaluated as well.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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What actually happens to a student that fails a standardized test? They get a remedial class once a week? Maybe a teacher's aide helps them with their notes? No where are they actually required to improve their test scores.
So if homeschoolers are held to the same standard, will nothing really happen to them if they fail as well? That's the part the anti-test crowd doesn't buy. There's no way the parents are going to be given the same pass that the bureaucracy gives itself.
Posts: 2283 | Registered: Dec 2003
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So you're mad at people suggesting testing and then offerings of help for what they AREN'T saying??
THAT'S paranoia. That's fine - you're welcome to be paranoid. However, if you think that those who are suggesting treating homeschoolers like public schoolers are in fact LYING and secretly want to treat homeschoolers like E.T., then I wouldn't wait around for any sort of resolution.
There can be no resolution when one side suspects the other of being secretly evil and lying when they state their cases.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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I don't think individuals want to persecute homeschoolers, no. But I apparently disagree with you on the fundamental nature of the government. I don't believe the system as a whole wants children to find the system that meets their needs. I believe the bureaucracy wants every child accounted for, properly stamped and trained in their idea of proper education.
Yes, it is a little paranoid, but I don't believe it's unreasonable paranoia. And I was the one on the last page saying that there probably is compromise. But both sides have to acknowledge each other's perspectives to get to that point.
Having schools offer voluntary testing services or lists of counselors who can help diagnose learning disabilities would probably work much better than anything mandatory. The parents that want the help will take it, and the ones who don't won't bother no matter where their kids go. If you don't have to pass a test in public schools, you shouldn't have to pass one to opt out.
Posts: 2283 | Registered: Dec 2003
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There is a lot of irony, that in order for a child to have educational freedom, one has to defend the parents' rights above the state's rights.
What would you (general you) think of an actual private school that doesn't teach reading, or do any reading or math evaluations or tests? and in fact has structured classes as optional? (if there are structured classes...)
posted
I find it mystifying that people, religious, hippie, or otherwise, think that they can completely isolate their kid from public education and/or outside influences, and somehow do an unequivocably better job than otherwise. I'm not accusing any homeschooling parents here, because it doesn't look like any of you reach that extreme, but it does sort of scare me. Seriously, how do people not understand the basic principle of costs and benefits? There's no perfect solution, and, at some point, you have to let go of your kid. The world has its bad points, but there are ways to insulate your kid against those. A reasonable compromise that I have seen is to homeschool until high school, and then send your kid to a good public or private school. I still refuse to believe that the greatest achievements in math and science are going to be from homeschooling. I wouldn't say that about the arts and letters. I'm a little surprised that each side can't see some benefit in the other position. If I had the time and money and decided to have another child, I'd probably take a serious look at homeschooling the kid until as late as 8th or 9th grade. I'd definitely get some tutoring on the side in math. After a certain age, though, the kid needs some kind of group experience, and will suffer socially if they don't get it. Yes, there are drawbacks to the high school experience, and yes, it depends on the kid as to what and when is best, but...homeschoolers are raising some weirdos. There really are some good schools and good teachers out there, public and privately-funded. It's foolish to assume otherwise. I had some great teachers who changed my life in public school. I had probably the best 3rd grade teacher in the state. I don't think she ever had a student who didn't feel that way, in 20+ years. I don't think many homeschooling parents could achieve what she did. Knee-jerk homeschooling is not necessarily an automatic good, based on my experiences. I'm not pointing out anyone here and saying "you need to learn that fact!", necessarily... Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:After a certain age, though, the kid needs some kind of group experience, and will suffer socially if they don't get it.
I think I have mentioned that the vast majority of homeschooled kids I have known are socially awkward and just plain weird, but there are some I've known who were essentially homeschooled to college age and have had no lack of effective socialization. Some could even turn out nicer and more mature than if they had been in Insert Hometown's School District Here.
The issue isn't that kids need school group experience. It ain't necessary. You can highly recommend it, though. I do.
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quote:What would you (general you) think of an actual private school that doesn't teach reading, or do any reading or math evaluations or tests? and in fact has structured classes as optional? (if there are structured classes...)
Why would this be any different than homeschooling? Same thing applies. If the students, after evaluation, can't pass the benchmarks set, then remediation and help would be offered.
I've already expressed in this thread my fear that I'm talking past others, and that I hope people don't take what I'm saying as merely a desire to be confrontational.
It honestly, truly is not. I'm going into education. I care deeply about education. I also care deeply about religious freedom and parental rights.
I know many people who homeschool and I respect them and think their children are brilliant and wonderful. My church is a cover school and I think it does a wonderful job and I support it.
It would be nice if we could assume that every homeschool parent did an equally wonderful job of homeschooling as my friends do and as I'm sure the hatrack parents do.
But we can't. We just can't. To use an analogy, it would be nice if we could assume that all employers put their employee's safety higher than profit margin and provide safe working environments. But we can't assume that, so we have OSHA and we have state regulations, and inspections, and such to ensure the safety of workers.
We have to have a safeguard, a fallback position that makes certain children are getting the education they need to be successful in this life. I do not believe that simply training a child in music, to go back to an earlier discussion, is enough.
How is that person going to read and interpret a contract for a music deal? How is he or she going to manage a budget or deal with money? Or understand how mortgages work? How are they going to vote and be a contributing citizen of our democratic nation if they have no skills in discourse analysis? There are things we need people to be able to do. They need literacy, numeracy, an understanding of finances and how such things work.
Does the public school do a good enough job of teaching such things? No, they don't. I think we need to spend more time on things like teaching people how credit and financing works and media literacy. But what a public education, K-12 gives someone - if they take full advantage of it - are reading skills, math skills, and an understanding of science and history. If they graduate from an American high school they have tools in their tool box - literacy, numeracy, and understanding of the quest for knowledge and the ability to do basic research. They can use those tools to be successful in whatever endeavor they pursue.
I think homeschooled and privately schooled kids need at the very least, the same set of tools in their metaphorical toolbox. I admit many times they might have even more tools. But, I want to be sure they all have the same set of basic ones.
This doesn't mean I think the public schools are always better. There are some schools that graduate students who are functionally illiterate. That's a shame, and it's wrong, and I would like to see it stopped. But, the point I'm making, and many others have, is that it's way too late to tell a high school junior who is 17 years old that he can't graduate because he doesn't read well enough.
We should be looking at that boy when he's 8 and saying "He doesn't read, what needs to be done in order to fix this?"
I think in our state, at least, with the Alabama Reading Initiative, that we're starting to do a better job with early intervention. We're not perfect by a long shot, but we are now doing a much better job. We have recognized the importance of identifying struggling readers early and intervening when it does the most good.
The kids I'm going to teach in the public schools deserve that. They deserve an eduational system that cares for them as individuals and wants to make sure they get the tools they need for success. Even though they may never be in my classroom, I happen the think the kids in private schools and homeschools deserve that too. The educational system still belongs to them. It still works for them. Just because a child is taught at home doesn't mean that child has any less right to the facilities and resources the public school has to offer.
But we have to know there are problems before we can offer help. There's no other way, that I know of, to identify problems without some sort of testing.
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Homeschooled kids don't necessarily lack opportunities for socialization. Many get together with other homeschooled kids. Others might take a few classes at the local public school. There are plenty of ways to socialize a child, and some of those ways might be better than public school, particularly if the social dynamics of the school aren't good. I think it's unfair to make a blanket statement about whether homeschoolers are well-socialized.
I got a terrific education in public high school. My parents would have had a lot of trouble giving me anything remotely as good. I suppose it's possible my school was exceptional, but my experience has been that it's best to learn from teachers who have focused on a particular subject. My parents don't know enough molecular biology to have taught it to me; nor would they have had the equipment for some of the physics experiments I did. That's why I tend to think that public schools are generally better for high-school aged kids than homeschooling (but I don't think this is a good reason to make anti-homeschooling legislation). I wonder if a lot of the disagreement just comes from different experiences. It sounds like some kids get great educations at home without some of the frustration of trying to learn at someone else's pace, and I can see why those people would think that homeschooling is better.
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Boon
unregistered
posted
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit:
I'm very disappointed that both KQ and Boon were so easily offended in this thread and left in a huff. Its not exactly the behavior I would expect from open minded parents who are sincerely trying to do their best. It tends to reinforce my believe that homeschoolers are fanatics who aren't able to objectively assess their efforts or willing to change as needed.
-sigh-
You are making assumptions that aren't true. I did not leave in a huff; I am not angry. I chose to leave the thread for a while because I was becoming too emotional to carefully consider "the opposition's" points and respond without things becoming personal.
Assuming that I choose a substandard education for my children because I oppose mandatory testing is not exactly the behavior I would expect from open minded educators who are sincerely concerned for my children. It tends to reinforce my belief that some public educators are fanatics who aren't able to objectively consider the fact that not all children are best served by being in a classroom setting.
I am opposed to mandatory testing, not because I'm afraid my children will fail it, but because it will not provide any useful data I don't already get. It has the added "bonus" of allowing a toehold into our home of a government entity that is not impartial.
I believe some schools, some teachers, and the government funded educational system as a whole, stand to benefit both financially and personally by "proving" homeschooling parents "unfit to teach" their children.
I also don't think "standardized testing" does a good job of measuring how much a child has actually learned about any given subject. Instead, I think it does a great job of measuring how well a person takes standardized tests and how much of the curriculum being used to compose the test the child can regurgitate. Never mind all the things that aren't covered by the test...
There's also individual circumstances to consider. I don't think *MY CHILDREN* would be best served by having to take a standardized test based on a curriculum we don't use. They don't need to take time away from what they're learning to learn how to take a test that isn't necessary, that we don't want, and that wouldn't change anything.
Also, the pressure of outside measurement...is something I don't think they need in this area of their lives. I do take note of what they're doing, and I do compare it to what the "should" be doing at their ages, but they're not taking "tests" they don't choose to take and they don't know I'm keeping track.
Now, again. I'm bowing out, for at least a week, not because I'm angry, but because I, as KQ said, don't have much time online anymore. My children have officially become computer hogs. There's a lot more I'd like to say swirling around in my head struggling to get out, but it'll have to wait.
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I am opposed to mandatory testing, not because I'm afraid my children will fail it, but because it will not provide any useful data I don't already get.
This is the problem I see in this thread. People who homeschool keep assuming other parents are as good as they are. Most of us for standardized testing have said over and over again that we aren't worried about your kids, we are worried about others that we have met whose parents should not be homeschooling. So you may not get any useful data out of it, but joe schmoe might. For example, my husband works for a tutoring company. These parents brought there kid in after homeschooling for 2 years. After much discussion with the parents and the student, it appeared as though the only thing the kid did in those 2 years was play x-box. He didn't want to work, the parents didn't want to force him. Luckily, these parents- AFTER 2 YEARS- realized playing x-box all day was not good for their child. But it took 2 years. These are the parents that we are concerned about. If I knew all parents were as concerned about their kids education and as capable as Boon and kq and BannaOJ's mother, then I wouldn't care what they did. But I know they aren't and these parents are doing considerable harm to their children.
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This really is mostly a "talking past each other" situation. The problem is that, generally, the people who want to homeschool have had, either by choice, chance, or both, a pretty non-socially-diverse life. Therefore, they are less likely to have encountered enough different types of people and situations to be able to say, either from direct experience, or logic plus some nearly-direct experience, "Man, there are some people who WANT to homeschool their kids who really ought NOT, particularly without help in certain subject areas." The only cure for this is direct experience, but the average socially-backward person is LESS likely, on average, all other things being equal, to get direct experience. Am I right here?
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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One problem I see is that ALL homeschooling parents believe that they are giving their child the best possible education - that's why they're homeschooling them. I don't believe that any homeschooling parents are intentionally trying to give their child a substandard education.
More than half of any random sample of people will say that they're above average. It's human nature. And parents are notorious for thinking their child is a wonderful gem who is better than all the other in their own special ways.
That's exactly why impartial, unbiased testing could benefit homeschooled children. Their parents can't be impartial about the education that they are giving, nor about their child's progress.
Heck, there were several times in college when I thought I really new a subject, only to do horribly on a test, and realize that I was missing some key elements. I didn't know what I didn't know.
That's why I would be in favor of an outside measuring stick for homeschooling children. It isn't to give the evil monolithic government a way to steal anyone's precious baby away - it's to help the parents see where their child might be falling behind, and ideally, would then provide resources to help the family do what's necessary to excel.
If the parent happens to be right, and their child really is a special flower who is way ahead of the morons in public school, awesome for them. Maybe they get a cookie with their A+.
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quote:Assuming that I choose a substandard education for my children because I oppose mandatory testing is not exactly the behavior I would expect from open minded educators who are sincerely concerned for my children. It tends to reinforce my belief that some public educators are fanatics who aren't able to objectively consider the fact that not all children are best served by being in a classroom setting.
And these type of broad-sweeping generalizations and denigration of professional educators tends to reinforce my belief that homeschool parents are unreasonable and so unable to be objective THEY refuse to admit that not all children are best served in a homeschool situation.
See, I'm perfectly capable of typing scathing remarks that don't remotely address what conscientious, dedicated people who sincerely believe they are making the best decisions have said. The only way to completely mimic your behavior would be for me to post a scathing, disrespectful attack and then not even give people the courtesy of continuing to read the thread.
I hope I'm not that immature and petty, however. I plan to continue this talk because I think - if people will not be defensive and actually try to LISTEN and learn from the other side - that it's a helpful and productive conversation to have.
quote:I believe some schools, some teachers, and the government funded educational system as a whole, stand to benefit both financially and personally by "proving" homeschooling parents "unfit to teach" their children.
How so? Please, demonstrate for me how I, as a teacher, benefit from proving homeschool parents are unfit. It's not as if I feel like job security is threatened, because for most children in this country, homeschool is not now and never will be an option.
quote:I also don't think "standardized testing" does a good job of measuring how much a child has actually learned about any given subject. Instead, I think it does a great job of measuring how well a person takes standardized tests and how much of the curriculum being used to compose the test the child can regurgitate. Never mind all the things that aren't covered by the test...
How much time have you spent studying academic measurement and evaluation? This is a common refrain that I hear from a lot of people who are anti-testing, but many of them truly don't understand how they work and what they intend to measure. Standardized tests measure a heckuva lot more than "the ability to take tests." A standardized reading evaluation does a darn good job of evaluating whether or not the child can read independently and comprehend what he/she reads. And it does a fantastic job of showing where that child performs in relation to his/her peers and across age groups.
Now, a low score on a standardized reading test doesn't necessarily mean the child can't read. There are other factors that may have affected the score like test anxiety, or cultural bias in the questions, etc. That's why standardized tests should never be used alone to evaluate a problem - but they certainly can and do serve a useful function of helping to identify potential problems.
The problem is that people expect standardized tests to do things they were never meant to do. Predict future performance, for example. Tests are tools - potentially very valuable tools, at that. One can get a lot of information from such tests as the Stanford Achievement or Iowa Test of Basic Skills. What it can't do though,is tell you if the child is smart or not. It also can't tell you what grades the child will make, or whether or not he has a chance to become a doctor or should focus on learning a trade instead. Any professional educator should have received training in how to interpret scores and how to use the information properly. Used right, such tests can give parents and teachers valuable information.
I've said before, in this very thread, that if you can come up with another completely objective way to measure a child's performance against accepted benchmarks that can be implemented on a wide scale and is fairly economical - then by all means let me know your solution. Standardized tests aren't perfect but they have three big advantages - they're objective, they're easily implemented, and economical to use for large populations.
Now, I also am stepping away - for a while. I have a family function to attend today and I want to watch some Olympics later. I will, however, return to read responses and reply to others' posts, because, as I said I think the discussion is a good one and a worthy one. I certainly don't believe that public educators are always right, and accept then there may be things I haven't considered. It's good for me to see the other side of things and gain exposure to others' point of view.
I'm not angry, or upset, about anything and want to keep on talking about what are very important topics for people who care about education and children.
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quote:The problem is that, generally, the people who want to homeschool have had, either by choice, chance, or both, a pretty non-socially-diverse life.
Nope. You're not right because, as usual, you're reasoning totally from your own drastically limited experience and projecting it onto a whole you know very little about, and then speaking authoritatively on the subject. Also because you're relying on unproven assumptions as being factual.
For example, that a 'socially diverse life' (whatever the hell that means) is necessary for one to be a good educator of their own child.
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I'm very disappointed that both KQ and Boon were so easily offended in this thread and left in a huff. Its not exactly the behavior I would expect from open minded parents who are sincerely trying to do their best. It tends to reinforce my believe that homeschoolers are fanatics who aren't able to objectively assess their efforts or willing to change as needed.
-sigh-
You are making assumptions that aren't true. I did not leave in a huff; I am not angry. I chose to leave the thread for a while because I was becoming too emotional to carefully consider "the opposition's" points and respond without things becoming personal.
To be fair Boon, I did post an apology for that statement a full day before you posted this. So you don't have to scroll back through the discussion to find it, here it is --
quote:Perhaps this is just an issue to which they are hypersensitive or maybe they both just happened to be PMSing (not intended as derogotory, I overreact when I'm PMSing and consider it a forgivable and understandable in others). If this is the case, then my last remark was an unfair judgement and I apologize.
Since one apology didn't seem to be enough, let me repeat. I misunderstood your reasons for leaving and I apologize.
[ August 17, 2008, 04:35 AM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:Also, I realize you are a college educator. However, if you had a student in your class that participated in a normal manner, would you have any occasion to find out if they WERE home schooled? You seem to be applying some inductive reasoning on the subject.
I generally found out students were homeschooled through scholarship applications, so while there was definitely a selection bias it was not the one you are suggesting.
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quote:Originally posted by BannaOj: What would you (general you) think of an actual private school that doesn't teach reading, or do any reading or math evaluations or tests? and in fact has structured classes as optional? (if there are structured classes...)
I think the community has an obligation for oversight of private schools as well.
If the private school was accredited by a reputable organization, I would be willing to let that organization oversee the school and evaluate their programs.
I think some sort of oversight is needed for all schools. If the school you are referring to wasn't accredited, I would ask for some other type of community oversight to ensure that the children's rights to learn basic skills were protected. That could be in the form of requiring minimum competency exams or some other form.
I'd actually support much harsher treatment of this sort of private school than I would for a homeschool. If a significant fraction of the students without documented disabilites weren't reading at grade level by age 8, I think the school's business license should be revoked. I think stricter standards would be in order for two reasons, first the rights of a private school are far far more limited than parental rights. Second, since we would be talking about more than two or three children, the chances that the problem was inherent in the school rather than the children would be much greater.
Finally, there seems to be an element of fraud involved if a private school is taking money to educate children and not delivering. I suppose that the fraud aspect could be eliminated if they openly advertised 'Our curriculum is designed to promote free expression so we don't teach reading, writing or math and nearly all of our students perform poorly in these subjects.'
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quote:I believe some schools, some teachers, and the government funded educational system as a whole, stand to benefit both financially and personally by "proving" homeschooling parents "unfit to teach" their children.
I'm with Belle on this one. I can't see any personal advantage a teacher or school system could gain be proving homeschooling parents were 'unfit to teach' their children. No teacher benefits from having more kids in their class.
I do however agree that many professional educators are biased against homeschoolers. At least part of that is because we work very hard at a profession that is we believe is very important and are sick of being unfairly denegrated. While not all homeschoolers are anti-public school and professional educator, a very large number are.
Homeschoolers aren't the only ones who do this. There is a widespread belief in this country that the public school system is rotten to the core. This is flat out untrue. In fact according to a recent study, when you control for socio-economic factors, public schools in this country are on the average doing a slightly better job than private schools.
If homeschoolers would stop spreading lies and half truths about public schools and show some respect for professional educators where it is do, I suspect they would find professional educators would be alot more open to what they are trying to do.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:Assuming that I choose a substandard education for my children because I oppose mandatory testing is not exactly the behavior I would expect from open minded educators who are sincerely concerned for my children. It tends to reinforce my belief that some public educators are fanatics who aren't able to objectively consider the fact that not all children are best served by being in a classroom setting.
You misunderstand my assumptions. Let me state them explIicitly
1. Children have a right to be taught certain basic skills necessary for them to thrive within their community. These skills include reading, writing and basic arithmatic.
2. Although parents should be allowed to teach their children these skills themselves if they desire, they do not have the right to deny their children a basic education in these subjects.
3. Although many homeschools work very well, many do not and are in fact doing life long damage to their children by allowing them to reach adulthood as functional illiterates.
4. The community has an obligation to protect children's rights. This includes the right to be taught basic skills. To fullfill this obligation, the community needs to do some oversight of homeschools to ensure that the child's rights are not being violated.
5. Requiring minimum competency testing for children in basic areas like reading and math is one way for society to fill this obligation. I would be more than happy to consider other ways that the community might provide oversight which are less invasive but I haven't been able to think of any.
6. Although minimum competency testing places a perhaps unneeded burden on good homeschools, that burden can be made relatively small if tests are given only a certain critical points in the child's development and limited to basic skills rather than including the whole curriculum. The benefits of identifying bad homeschooling early on when corrective action is still possible far out way that inconvience.
7. Testing should not be used to define what constitutes a good homeschool or bad homeschool but as an indicator that further investigation is necessary.
8. When ever possible, parents who homeschool should be given the support they need to be successful. Parents should not be forced to enroll their children in a public school or acredited private school until all other avenues for protecting the child's rights have been exaughsted.
9. I have explicitly avoided saying that this should be a responsibity of the government. Its not the governments responsibility, it is the communities responsibility. Although communities commonly choose government as a means to fullfill their responsibility to protect children's rights, there are other options. For example, there are NGOs that accredit private schools. I can imagine NGOs tasked to oversee homeschools that could satisfy the communities obligations to the children. I suppose, however, in the end the government must have a role in enforcement when parents refuse oversight of any kind.
I'd be happy to discuss any objections you or anyone else has to these points, but I'm sick of the strawmen people keep throwing up.
I recognize that many parents object to the type of oversight that has been required of homeschools in the past or to the content of standardized test that have been used, but those objections are fundamentally different than objecting to anykind of oversight or suggesting that no kind of testing could be useful.
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posted
Just to point out that I am here and reading responses, I want to add my agreement to all of Rabbit's 9 points above. I could have written each of them.
I also want to point out that I didn't mean, in my previous post, to say Boon was petty and immature. I realize on reading it through a second time, that it may be construed that way.
What I think is petty and immature is posting insulting remarks aimed at people and then stating you won't stick around to let people respond. It's the internet equivalent of a child hurling insults and then slamming the door and refusing to talk anymore with the person they just insulted.
I recognize Boon said she had valid reasons for not being on the thread for a week or more - fine. I have no problem there. But given that she knew she wouldn't be around for a while, the mature way to handle that would be not to post at all until she had the time to devote to it and the respect for others to allow the ones she insulted to respond.
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2 is a little trickier since I'm not sure what should be done about it if the parents or child refuse. If there is a penalty, I would demand that it be applied to students in all settings: public, private, home or other. I'm leery of penalties being applied unevenly. (See government bureaucracy rant above.)
3 I agree with, with the caveat that it is by no means exclusive to home schools.
For 4 through 7, replace home school with all schools and I agree completely. Though again, what happens when a student doesn't make progress?
8. What happens when the student flunks out of public school? Where do we register them then to protect their rights? Moving students from one setting to another in search of a teaching style that better suits them is laudable, but your phrasing seems to imply that public schools are the default educational setting where everyone can be expected to succeed. The Manhattan Institute says that's only true about 70% of the time. I'm in Florida where we're only talking a little better than half over all. If I remember right, my high school's rate was about 66%, and we were in a pretty well-off district.
My assumption 8a would be that public schools work great for students with an average learning speed and retention, no or mild disabilities, and a personality that lends itself to the environment. Students on the edges of any of those curves may not be well served. Also, anyone using a different criteria than just the ability to graduate reading, writing coherantly, and able to do math may disagree with the philosophy underlying the system without ever doing poorly in school. Failure does not necessarily mean not graduating or not learning depending on the speaker.
9. I think I'd rather see a variety of NGOs used to monitor students instead of the government. Since all levels of government are responsible for standards and funding, none of them can really be objective on the subject. Seperate bodies with no conflicting interests are always preferable, in my banker's mind.
In fact, I wouldn't be oppossed to audits of students' work instead of tests. Parents could keep five examples of their child's best work per subject and present it to the auditors upon request. It could be completed worksheets, recordings of the child singing a song they composed to memorize their multiplication tables, drawings from their history of medieval clothing project, absolutely anything educational that the child did.
That would avoid the objections that the child is being forced to regurgitate material someone else considers important, that the child is being held to an arbitrary pace, and that government standards stifle creativity. It would mean that parents would have to keep a portfolio. Personally, I think it's a pretty reasonable compromise.
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quote:In fact, I wouldn't be oppossed to audits of students' work instead of tests. Parents could keep five examples of their child's best work per subject and present it to the auditors upon request. It could be completed worksheets, recordings of the child singing a song they composed to memorize their multiplication tables, drawings from their history of medieval clothing project, absolutely anything educational that the child did.
Although such a proposal allows for lots of flexibility, I see several problems with itl. First, it would be far more difficult and expensive to administer than testing. As a teacher, I've graded projects and portfolios and it is a very time consumming and difficult job. Second, while projects and portfolios are excellent way to demonstrate certain skills, they are very poor for others. I'm having difficulty seeing how a portfolio could adequately demonstrate reading comprehension in a portfolio of their work. Third, the potential for cheating is enormous. Did you read Mrs. M's post about the mother they could hear in the background feeding answers to the child? Fourth, I think this system would place a much higher burden on the parents than a few strategically timed tests. Fifth, evaluation of a portfolio of this kind would be extremely subjective which would lead to constant problems for both the auditors and the parents.
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quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: There are some states that already have the portfolio requirement in place.
KQ, Do you know which states? How do they evaluate the portfolios? How do they ensure that the portfolio is actually the child's work?*
*I know that the problem of parents doing the child's project isn't just or even primarily a problem for home schools. There are plenty of parents who actually do their children's projects in formal schools. There is even a big problem at the University level with students submitting projects that aren't their own work. That's one of the reasons that we rarely grade a student based solely on a written project.
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I think Pennsylvania is one. I can try to find a list. Give me a few minutes.
I think they mostly have credentialed teachers whose dedicated job is reviewing the portfolios. I've never heard of whether it's a child's work being called into question, since the people I know wouldn't do that; I assume there are procedures in place. I think since there's no formal curriculum requirements they're more looking for growth and progress. I would think that something seeming way out of a child's league based on the previous work of the child and the child's age and abilities would trip a red flag and might warrant a closer examination of the child's work, but I don't know the procedure. I've really only heard it mentioned in passing; I know some parents keep notebooks and some use, um, what's-it-called, those minibooks made into a file folder presentation that they have their kids make... I'm sorry, my brain is fried tonight. I'll go work on that list.
ETA: Lapbooking! I knew I was talking about a real thing. There are whole online communities dedicated to it and companies that sell worksheet kits to make them and stuff.
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(I believe, from what I've heard, it's kind of like a case manager situation in that families are generally assigned one teacher who follows them for years at a time. But I'm not sure, that's just an inference and don't quote me on that. Back to looking.)
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What I'm finding on a browsing through laws is that many states offer homeschoolers a choice between testing (and testing is not necessarily by the school district; in Alaska any nationally standardized test can be used, not just the one used in Alaska schools, for instance, although testing is not actually required at all in Alaska; the law just allows for parents to use it) or "evaluation by a professional teacher," which in many cases is accomplished by a yearly portfolio review. Many families in this instance choose the portfolio review over the standardized testing. Some states require families to maintain a portfolio of the childrens' work but do not require it to be evaluated, rather they allow for it to be submitted for review in cases where educational neglect is alleged.
There are just too many laws for me to want to wade through them all right now, I don't have the energy. I can do it later or you can look for yourself. HSLDA has a legal analysis of laws in each state. If you look at the map (you can click on states in the list or on the map), the ones colored orange or red require testing and/or professional evaluation on some basis (not necessarily yearly.)
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quote:My assumption 8a would be that public schools work great for students with an average learning speed and retention, no or mild disabilities, and a personality that lends itself to the environment.
Students on the edges of any of those curves may not be well served.
That is a very common but inaccurate stereotype of public schools that is largely invalid. For the most part, public schools offer the best programs for children with disabilities. Very few private schools are available for children with severe disabilities. For children with mild learning disabilities, what you are saying was likely true 30 years ago before learning disabilities were widely recognized as real. Today, most public schools have good programs for students with identified learning disabilities. In fact, many home school parents use the public schools resources for children with learning disabilities. Public schools are required by law to offer these services, private schools aren't.
Additionally most public schools have strong gifted and talented programs. I have some close friends who have children with IQs off the curve who did a lot of research into this issue. At least in their areas (several places in the US), the public schools offered stronger gifted and talented programs at the elementary and middle school level than any of the private schools.
As I mentioned earlier, my husband taught AP chemistry for 4 years in a top ranked college prep (i.e. private) school so I became pretty familiar with what went on there. I don't think this school offered superior education to the top students than the top local high schools. In fact, they had a smaller selection of AP courses and didn't have an IB option. The students who really benefitted compared to a public school were the average students who often just coast through in public schools.
As for students with personalities that don't mesh well with a traditional classroom, many areas have charter schools. These are fully tax payer funded public schools that are allowed to have a more focused mission. I know of charter schools that have open classrooms, are project oriented rather than test oriented, that focus on experiential learning, that focus on math and science, or arts or that require parental involvement in the classroom. I know these aren't yet available everywhere, but in most places, there are many options within the public school system.
By and large, the people who are not well served by the public school system are people from the lower socioeconomic classes. That isn't just speculation, its been confirmed in hundreds of studies. Most of the children doing poorly in public schools, have parents who are poorly educated, who do not have the time or the skills to help their child in school, who do not know the system well enough to make sure their child has access to all the resources available, or who are in unstable life situations. One of the biggest problems in public schools are "migrant" students, who move frequently, often many times within a single school year. In these cases, schools simply can't adequately track a students progress. Teachers often don't see the child for a long enough period of time to even accurately gauge their abilities let alone assess their problems. Most children need a stable home life to thrive. A kid who moves several times a year will spend so much time adjusting to new teachers and friends, new home, new neighbors, maybe even new family that they are unlikely to be able to focus on things like spelling and arithmetic. Study after study has shown that the home environment is the most significant factor in determining whether or not a child will succeed in public schools.
I'm completely in agreement with you that we as a community need to make sure public schools are doing their job well but see that as a different issue. Public schools are our default as a community, They are the way we as a community have chosen to fulfill our obligation to educate our children. We need to make sure that these schools are really fulfilling that obligation or we are negligent.
Many school teachers are as strongly opposed to any oversight of their classrooms as are home schools. In fact, teachers unions often oppose any attempts to evaluate teachers. I think this is completely unacceptable. As a community, we have an ethical obligation to make sure the people teaching our children are doing a good job. We need to make sure that teachers don't get railroaded by a single outspoken parent and that their expertise receives due respect, but that doesn't mean no oversight.
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GATE here is crap. And it's next to impossible to get adequate services for a gifted student with a learning or other disability; you basically have to choose one or the other. (For instance, my brother never got gifted education, despite his genius-level IQ, because he is disgraphic and on the autistic spectrum.)
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KQ, Thanks for the information. I'm curious, would you object to having a certified teacher come into your home once a year to interview your children and look at their portfolio. Would you see this as more or less invasive than requiring your children to take a standardized test at ages 8, 12, 16 and 18?
I know one family that home schooled to avoid public school teachers scrutiny over their children's frequent bruises. I suspect they would have considered having a certified teacher visit their home to be even more invasive than testing.
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I note here that most states do not require home visits. New York does but I can't think of another off the top of my head. Where evaluation is mandated it is usually just sending in the materials by mail to a centralized office or turning them in at the school district headquarters once a year (depending on who does the evaluations.)
I would object to sending in a portfolio but much less than I would object to standardized testing. I would strenuously object to having anyone come into my home. I see that as invasive, disruptive, stressful for my children and me, and prejudicial. If I had to choose some method of evaluation, I would choose sending in a portfolio for evaluation, which is what most of my friends who have that choice do.
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(So basically, if there must be oversight-- which I don't think there should be-- I find requiring remote review of the childrens' progress to be the least restrictive option. The caveat is that I would stipulate that it should only be evaluated to "checklist" that the required subjects were being taught, not how or when or how much they were being taught, that the children were gaining basic literacy, and that progress was made from year to year, not how much progress was made, but that any progress was made.)
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KQ, Did you decide to home school before or after you moved to LA? Did you decide to home school after you had investigated all the public school options or before? If you lived in an area with an outstanding public school system, would you still want to homeschool?
I ask this questions because I have found that home schoolers often have an unfair bias against public schools and are quick to believe anything bad they hear about them.
For example, earlier in this discussion you said that the teachers in LAUSD sometimes didn't get paid because the funds had been misappropriated. I found that hard to believe since its in violation of dozens of laws for any employer not to pay their employees, but I know you well enough that I wouldn't accuse of lying so I looked in to it. It turns out that in 2007, LAUSD did have problems with some teachers not getting their pay checks, some also were overpaid and some underpaid. It turns out that this was the result of problems with new software they were using. While that is still a big problem and still an inexcusable burden on teachers and still likely to cause the district to loose good teachers unless its fixed quickly, it is quite different than misappropriation of funds.
As I said earlier, if home schoolers wish professional educators had more respect for what they were doing, home schoolers need to stop spreading misinformation about the public schools.
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I decided to homeschool after getting a diagnosis for my daughter of SPD, recognizing she is gifted (double complications) and investigating public and private school options.
If I could afford it, there's a Montessori school I would consider sending her to if after meeting with them I was confident in their ability to serve her SPD needs.
If I lived in a school district that had a school/program appropriate for a gifted child with SPD, I might send her if the school environment was safe (I do not consider our local school environment safe-- I'm sorry, but I'm not sending my kid to a school where assaults and weapons violations are on the up each year. In ELEMENTARY school. This based on the police report for the local elementary school and surrounding schools for the past 5 years.)
The misappropriation comment was based on discussion with a LAUSD teacher. I should have fact-checked her statement, sorry.
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(I should add that Emma has been attending a Montessori preschool two days a week for the past two years, and is only stopping this fall because she's aging out.
We enrolled her because of a social and verbal delay, which are now corrected, at least enough that we feel she doesn't need the intervention any more.
We intend to prayerfully and earnestly consider each child's educational needs each year before deciding whether to continue homeschooling or to make a sacrifice to find a private school that will serve the child's individual needs even if it is a financial stretch. If we move to a better district with safer schools we'd consider public schools, too, though we don't intend to move from the area right now as we other than the schools love where we live.
As I said, every year we will re-evaluate and the choice will be made on a year by year and child by child basis.)
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I should also add that we have discussed this decision with educator friends along the path to making it, in particular my uncle, who has a Masters in Education, and who has taught in public and Catholic schools for many years, mainly teaching sixth through eighth grade English, and has seen kids who came to his classes from public, private secular, Catholic, Armenian, and home schools through the years. He agrees that we are making the best choice for our family, and that has helped me to find strength to do what I'm sometimes a little afraid to do, and conviction that this is indeed right for us.
Not that that's really relevant for the discussion, but to just tell you that we really did consider all the options. And because I am really going to miss my uncle when he is gone. (He has ALS and sadly I don't think he's going to be around long enough to teach my kids to write a proper paper.)
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quote:Originally posted by ketchupqueen: (So basically, if there must be oversight-- which I don't think there should be-- I find requiring remote review of the childrens' progress to be the least restrictive option. The caveat is that I would stipulate that it should only be evaluated to "checklist" that the required subjects were being taught, not how or when or how much they were being taught, that the children were gaining basic literacy, and that progress was made from year to year, not how much progress was made, but that any progress was made.)
Can I understand this to mean that you think a parent does have the right to prevent their child from being taught to read?
I get the impression you feel that what your children learn is no ones business but your own and that if parent thinks reading is an unnecessary or even undesirable skill that's just fine.
I just can't accept that. Children do have the right to be taught certain things. A parent's right to choose what their child is taught is necessarily constrained within in the bounds that do not violate the child's right. The only way that society can protect the child's rights is by requiring oversight for all schools including home schools.
I'm perfectly willing to accept a very limited definition of what a child has the right to be taught. I'd be satisfied with reading, writing and arithmetic.
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I don't think that it's okay not to teach your child to read.
But I don't think the state has the right to tell me when or how I must teach my child to read.
I am all for compulsory education laws-- as long as they do not mandate the manner in which education must take place or a timeline for it, or require state oversight of non-public or accredited schools.
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Also, if the state finds out about gross educational neglect through some other means, I do think they have a right to intervene.
If a child's doctor finds out that she can't read at 14 years of age, and reports this (and I would hope that a doctor would have someone to report this to, if after speaking with the parents she was not satisfied that they were giving due diligence to their child learning to read), I think the state has every right to mandate that child be taught to read whether that child is in public, private, or a home school, and require followup of the interventions given.
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quote: Additionally most public schools have strong gifted and talented programs.
Yeah, but gifted only goes so far. In primary school it was once a week and I was just in regular class the rest of the time. By middle it was one class out of seven, and by high school it was an elective I rarely had time for.
And if you're moving along faster than the rest of your honors class, even that doesn't really help. A classroom setting ties everyone to the average pace which may not be appropriate for all students.
I did appreciate the free year of college I got in my junior and senior years. But I still don't think being treated like an idiot child at 18 was worth the bother. And in the end, the college didn't help since I was so exhausted by school and its mindless bureaucracy and feeling of floundering along with no goal because that's just what you're supposed to do that I dropped out of college my junior year.
So even the stuff my public school did well was ruined by the parts they did poorly. For me.
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KQ, It's sounds like you are choosing to homeschool for excellent reasons. I wish you the best of luck.
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AvidReader, At some point you have to take responsibility for your own education. By the time you reach college, if you are still blaming your choice on the system, you've got a lot of growing up to do.
quote:And if you're moving along faster than the rest of your honors class, even that doesn't really help. A classroom setting ties everyone to the average pace which may not be appropriate for all students.
A classroom setting does not need to tie people to an average pace. There are many ways of instructing a class that allow students to progress at different paces. I've never known of a student who approached a teacher saying that the class was moving too slow for them who wasn't encouraged and assisted with moving ahead on their own.
I think students who complain that their classes aren't challenging enough are just looking for excuses to justify being too lazy to challenge themselves. And I say that as someone who both made that complaint in school and has heard plenty of students claim it.
It's unreasonable to expect that any school could hand taylor the perfect education for every child. Even homeschools can't do that. Nearly all public schools have terrific things to offer. A student who is looking for them rather than trying to justify their own youthful malaise, will find them.
As for dropping out of the University during your junior year, only you can know if that was the right choice for you. Whatever opinion you may hold of the public K-12 schools in the US, it is widely agreed that the US has the world's premier University System. Even moderately ranked public Universities in the US offer an excellent higher education.
A University education is a valuable thing, but a degree is not needed for success in life. You may someday find you regret not taking advantage of what the University had to offer. Maybe you will conclude that what the University had to offer wasn't important for achieving your goals. But hopefully, you will stop blaming your own life choices on the failure of the schools to engage you. At some point, you have to recognize that being engage is your responsibility no the schools.
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quote:If a child's doctor finds out that she can't read at 14 years of age, and reports this (and I would hope that a doctor would have someone to report this to, if after speaking with the parents she was not satisfied that they were giving due diligence to their child learning to read), I think the state has every right to mandate that child be taught to read whether that child is in public, private, or a home school, and require followup of the interventions given.
The problem is in part that there is rarely an opportunity for the community detect observe educational neglect. Unlike bruises, broken bones and malnutrition, illiteracy rarely has any obvious visable signs. Many illiterate adults are able to successful hide it from nearly everyone.
Forget about the fact that 14 is almost certainly too late for successful intervention. Forget about the fact that unlike issues of injury or nutrition or psychological problems, doctors aren't trained to diagnosis literacy. Forget about the fact that a visit to the doctor rarely offers an opportunity to observe someones reading skills and let me reiterate my point number 4.
quote:4. The community has an obligation to protect children's rights. This includes the right to be taught basic skills. To fullfill this obligation, the community needs to do some oversight of homeschools to ensure that the child's rights are not being violated.
Unlike issues of physical abuse or neglect, educational neglect is extremely unlikely to be observable by the community. I can't see how the community can fullfil its obligation to protect the rights of homeschooled children without some sort of formal oversight.
Not that long ago, the community presumed that parents were neglecting their children's education solely because they home schooled and home schooling was considered a reason to take children away from their parents or even to jail the parents. I'm not suggesting that we go back to anything like that.
What I'm saying is that to fullfil our obligations to educate our children, we have as a communitee established certain organizations --including public schools and the organizations that acredit private schools. Parents choice to pursue an option other than public or accredited private schools, does not obsolve me as a member of the community of my responsibility to protect the child's rights and that means some sort of oversight.
To fullfil our responsibility, we must not only have a means to intervene when the child's rights are being violated but also have a reasonably high probability of determining when that is happening. That's why we've made laws that require doctors and teachers to report when they observe evidence of physical or psychological obuse. That's why we require CFS to investigate all claims of child abuse.
I suppose we could go with a system like we have for physical abuse. Any time someone calls CFS and reports that they think you are beating your child, CFS is legally required to come into your home and check on the claim even if there is no other evidence to support the claim, even if they've visited a dozen times in the past month. We could have a similar law for education, if at anytime anyone called and reported anonymously that your child's education was being neglected, the state would come into your home and test your child. But to me, that seems likely to be far more invasive and far more likely to be abused than an organized oversight program. I can easily imagine a manipulative aunt or neighbor calling the state regularly to report everyone she knows who is homeschooling. I don't think anyone would find such a system acceptable.
Requiring homeschoolers to take minimum competence tests at ages 8, 12 and 16 as a way to determine whether further investigation is necessary seems far simpler and more respectful of the parents rights.
[ August 18, 2008, 09:25 AM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
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I'm going to be traveling for the next few days and don't know when I'll be able to get on hatrack again. I will come back to this thread when I get a chance.
Just letting you know so no one assumes I'm blowing them off when I don't respond. Its been a good discussion so far and I hope it continues.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: I've never known of a student who approached a teacher saying that the class was moving too slow for them who wasn't encouraged and assisted with moving ahead on their own.
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: I've never known of a student who approached a teacher saying that the class was moving too slow for them who wasn't encouraged and assisted with moving ahead on their own.
You have now. Me.
Me, too. And don't forget that even with sympathetic teachers, other kids can make it torture to be "different". And I went to very good public schools.
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This is all made me curious, so I looked up Virginia's laws on homeschooling. As far as I can tell from a quick scan, parents file a curriculum plan for the year at the beginning of each school, and there is some kind of evaluation every year. It can be a standardized test, a review of a portfolio, an evaluation letter from a professional teacher or else someone with a Masters degree in any subject, a report card filled out by someone other than the parent, or something else if you can get the school district to go along with it.
All of it gets submitted to the superindentent. If it doesn't, then I think the case is handled the same way truants are.
I think this is a great idea. If a homeschooling parent doesn't have a plan and can't provide proof of progress of any kind, then I DO question the quality of education the kids are getting, and letting that situation continue is a failure of society to protect the kids.
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quote:Me, too. And don't forget that even with sympathetic teachers, other kids can make it torture to be "different". And I went to very good public schools.
Other kids can make life brutal in private schools. Kids who are homeschooled can be teased by peers they meet in other settings.
Public schools aren't the only places kids get teased and picked on.
I should say, since we're throwing out anecdotes, that I was identified as gifted and in every grade except one - third grade - I had teachers who went above and beyond to make my learning experience fun and challenging. I have a daughter who has been identified as gifted and her experience has been very good, through elementary and middle school. She's now in high school where there is no formal gifted education, but she has the capability to take honors classes and dual enrollment for college credit. She's been very challenged.
I have a middle daughter who tested but fell short of being identified as gifted, but her fourth grade teacher chose not to believe the test and still went out of her way to challenge and push my child. Personally, I DO believe the tests, because I don't think my 10 year old learns the same way her gifted older sister does, but she is certainly brilliant in her own way.
We should do more with gifted education in the public schools, I agree. I wish we were able to find the money to put gifted teachers in every level, but usually they are not in the high schools.
And I agree with Rabbit, at some point (and high school is probably a good place to start, definitely college) you do have to take responsibility for your own education and learn to push yourself.
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quote:Me, too. And don't forget that even with sympathetic teachers, other kids can make it torture to be "different". And I went to very good public schools.
Other kids can make life brutal in private schools. Kids who are homeschooled can be teased by peers they meet in other settings.
Public schools aren't the only places kids get teased and picked on.
No one said they were. The Rabbit said she had never heard of a teacher who wasn't encouraging when approached by a child for whom the class was going too slowly. Now she has.
I am finding it interesting that, given the level of support for parental autonomy that was shown on this forum during the crisis with the FLDS children, that there is so much support for govenrment intereference in this area. I don't know if it is just different people having the conversation or what. I am not sure what to make of it, but I do find it interesting, including my own reactions.
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