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I'm not sure if I should write a small novella of the entire backstory or what. His father died when he was 12 or so, he is currently 21/22 and according to his mom he hasn't been the same since. He is completely in a shell. Plays WoW all day, every day, feeds his cats, cleans their litter, eats, and sleeps. Was raised Catholic, probably clashed with his mom on the subject since he thinks it's BS and everything else.
He tried suicide several years ago and failed, went to a therapist, didn't say a word. His mom doesn't know what to do with him, and things have been in limbo mostly. I don't want to say she's given up, but I think she's barely functioning as it is. I know that ultimately it's up to him, but when someone has basically said "i've given up" do we just give up too? What kinds of resources are out there? And I'm not just talking helpline, he is seriously at some place in his head where suicide appears romantic and poetic, there's no point to the world, and the phrase "I don't care" is mantra.
His brother claims that he acts like his father never existed, and while he acts very quiet and controlled on the outside, I do know that he doesn't like being touched/hugged, and I feel that underneath he is profoundly angry and hurting. My brother was able to talk to him, and at one point he said something like "don't start that pity s***." It's just so incredibly controlled and subdued. Ghost in the Shell, whatever you want to call it.
What can we do? He's not well in the head...right? After 21 years of disconnected living he thinks life isn't worth living? No shit!
I don't care if he screeches, moans, hates me, or any other pushing away tactics, there is something chemically screwed up in his head, and he needs serious, serious help.
posted
If your friend is going to kill himself, he needs some kind of intervention. If you could convince him to talk to a doctor and admit that he is having suicidal ideation, then he may have some kind of access to treatment. When you a friend in that situation, all you can be is firm and resolute. Insist that he see a doctor.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
It's very difficult to get help for someone who may be suicidal. If they're coherent, they can usually talk their way out of whatever authority might try to intervene.
I'm not an expert, but my best suggestion would be to do your best to dispel the notion of suicide as romantic or as a way to get some sort of attention he feels he's currently lacking. That suicide fixes things at the lowest point in his life, and refuses- in a rather cowardly way, honestly- to consider the possibility that things pass and change and that life can get better if one keeps trying.
To die now is to miss every movie that comes out in the future, every good book, every new friend, every new love. It glorifies the pain the suicide is experiencing as insurmountable, as something that beat him. And it leaves everyone who cares about him, ultimately, not mourning his loss but angry at his selfishness and short-sightedness.
What I will warn is that antidepressants aren't a good idea without a supportive community, in that they often remove the apathy/lethargy that prevents suicide before they result in a lifted mood.
I wish I had more to offer. A family friend committed suicide a few years ago after his father's death and an ugly divorce, and his family is still hurting. It's a lousy situation.
quote:Originally posted by Sterling: To die now is to miss every movie that comes out in the future, every good book, every new friend, every new love.
That's the thing, I know he thinks there's no point. "Yeah, so we watch a good movie, it doesn't last anyway, so what's the point?" This isn't to dismiss your reply, but to give you an idea of the brick walls that are currently erected. Thank you very much for replying!
And thank you everyone who has replied, and who will reply after this. I'll be keeping tabs and updates. I'm reading a fascinating book by Daniel G. Amen, MD about brain function, and how it correlates to behavior, and how through targeted brain treatment, amazing results with treating depression, anxiety, focusing problems, ADD.
Depression runs in his family, I know his mom takes meds and his brother has ADD. I think there's seriously something wrong with his brain.
Sorry to be repeating, I'm just trying to rally the troops! You guys have been great at giving suggestions and helping out when Tatiana had questions. Your thoughts and prayers, insights, and comments are all important!
Posts: 1236 | Registered: Mar 2002
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That's a tough one. I don't think there's a one size fits all solution, but Sterling I think touched on a good general strategy. Generally I'd say to gather together his friends and family and go the intervention route to show him there are things to live for and to convince him to seek help. But if you don't have that many people to rally, and he's in a state where nothing you say will have much of an effect on him, then you're in a bit of a bind.
I don't know what the rules are on having someone involuntarily committed to a facility where they can get treatment, but I'm pretty sure that those rules demand that a family member be the one doing it, so I would imagine his mother would have to seek out such a course of action.
Getting help for someone in that state is tough, because at the end of the day, they have to want to change, have to want to get better. As great an influence as friends and family can be (and they can be powerful), the person in question has to take a lot of those steps himself, or it'll never work.
Could you get together his family and friends and try some type of intervention? It might not work but it's worth a shot. Other than that, if he's really as seriously far gone as you're saying, you could try talking to his mother and seeing about forcing him to get help. I mean if it's between that or death, and he's really on the verge, then I don't think it's too drastic a step.
Take all that with a grain of salt though. It's hard to give advice without really knowing all the details of the person and the situation in question, because with so many variables, good advice can be totally different depending on what is what. I'd agree with you from your description though that something is certainly misfiring in his head, and he needs to see someone to get it fixed, but usually that entails him wanting to participate, which it sounds like he hasn't wanted to do in the past.
Regardless, good luck, and I hope he gets better.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
I'm a little fuzzy on the time line here. Are you saying he's 33 years old, been this way since he was 12, and has only tried suicide once in 21 years?
While I'm certainly aware that one can be close to attempting it without going through with it, he doesn't really sound that dangerous. Has he been saying things recently that give you reason to believe he's contemplating it again?
Though suicidal or depressed, my advice is close to the same. He needs to see that his life is capable of changing. Could you convince him to leave the computer long enough to have a picnic with you in the yard? At this point, he probably needs the Vitamin D. Do you remember anything he enjoyed at 12 that might still make a good hobby? If you've got any wind in your area, I'm a big fan of kites, myself. Drawing paper, legos, a good book - there's all kinds of cheap options.
If it's more repression than depression, that one's not budging until there's a reason. If he's decided he doesn't trust people with his thoughts and feelings, he needs his friends to build a connection with him that is completely non-judgemental and honest. You have to tell him exactly what you're thinking too, even if you don't think you should be thinking it.
And he can't ever feel that this was brought about because you read a book and think you can fix him. So you have to be in a place where it's just about him and not about you saving him before this is even remotely a good idea.
I hope you both feel better.
Posts: 2283 | Registered: Dec 2003
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I think the most important thing to remember is, while it's good to help, it's ultimately not your responsibility. Your friend has responsibility for his own life, and whatever he decides to do is no reflection on you.
I had a friend once who killed himself. He wasn't a bad guy, but he had a hard time making friends, and put a little too much pressure on our friendship, since I was just about the only person he had outside his family that would spend any time with him.
I genuinely liked the guy, but I wasn't able to spend as much time with him as he seemed to want. When I found out that he'd killed himself, I felt partially responsible, and I kind of went numb emotionally for a long time afterward. I didn't know how to deal with it. I felt terribly guilty, but I wasn't able to summon the kind of grief that I thought was appropriate, and any other reaction seemed callous and confusing. So I closed myself off from the world during a lot of high school trying to come to terms with my role in his death.
In college, I was manipulated into dating a girl I didn't like because she had problems that she insisted I could help her with. She wasn't a bad person, but she was very wrong for me. Still, I dated her for several months, and suffered greatly for it, because she was able to make me feel emotionally responsible for fixing her.
In the end, neither of these situations got any better until I was able to realize that my only real responsibility is for myself. It took me a long time to absolve myself of personal responsibility for my friend's suicide. And when I was able to be firm with the girl I was dating, end the relationship, and offer my friendship from a more realistic, dispassionate perspective, it ended up being good for both of us.
Not that we shouldn't try to help other people when we can. But before you even try to begin helping him solve his problems, it's important that you clearly and realistically define your place in his life, and the limits of your responsibilities towards him.
I think it is possible to help someone with problems like his. But you have to understand that only he can make the final decision about his life, and keep yourself in a position where a bad decision from your friend won't drag you down with him. That's the best advice I can give.
Posts: 2804 | Registered: May 2003
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posted
He's 21, he tried suicide when he was....16? I was on the outskirts of that whole thing so I'm fuzzy on those details except the ones listed in the OP.
Yeah, I'm not sure what it is, although repression seems highly likely. I can't tell if he has a huge ego that keeps him in some denial about where he is in his thinking/perception of reality or what's going on.
Thank you for that advice regarding it being "about him" and not "about me saving him". You could even elaborate because while I got it, I think I might get more if you expanded on that. I see that to be important. Should I be honest and say that this dialogue is because I heard he was contemplating suicide? I'll admit I've been in the "given up on him" camp for a while.
Posts: 1236 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Speed: I think it is possible to help someone with problems like his. But you have to understand that only he can make the final decision about his life, and keep yourself in a position where a bad decision from your friend won't drag you down with him. That's the best advice I can give.
Thank you, I realize that. I'm pretty sure I do.
Posts: 1236 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
I can't speak for your friend personally, but my experience with repression is that it comes about because the person is systematically taught that their thoughts and feelings don't matter. There's no point sharing them with others because at best they'll be ignored and at worst they'll be declared wrong. If he's been prone to dark or morbid thoughts, he may even have learned that there's something wrong with him because of them. (Imagine how Tim Burton must have felt as a kid trying to share his stories with other people.)
So if all his life his most inimate thoughts have always been framed in terms of how other people feel about them, he may not have a very clear sense of self. If you come in trying to change his thinking and behavior because you disagree with it, even though you have the best intentions, it's just more of the same. He probably needs help figuring out who he is.
The problem is that he's got no reason to trust anyone. Start slow. Don't expect anything. Invite him to go for a walk or something and be ok with it if he doesn't say anything. Don't push.
If he asks why you're doing it, tell him you think he's lost touch with himself and you want to help him find it. I wouldn't bother mentioning the suicide. If he said it to anyone already, he knows darn well why you're there, and if he hasn't said it he can probably still guess. He's probably more aware of the rumors than you are.
Posts: 2283 | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:Originally posted by AvidReader: I can't speak for your friend personally, but my experience with repression is that it comes about because the person is systematically taught that their thoughts and feelings don't matter. There's no point sharing them with others because at best they'll be ignored and at worst they'll be declared wrong. If he's been prone to dark or morbid thoughts, he may even have learned that there's something wrong with him because of them. (Imagine how Tim Burton must have felt as a kid trying to share his stories with other people.)
I had this theory forming in my mind before. I will tell you another story in which this came to my attention.
We had a dog named Dusty, mid-sized lab-mutt mix. He had snapped at one or two people in the 7 years we had him. He tried to bite Daniel (that's his name) IIRC.
Later, I forget how it was brought up, but my brother had a way of being affectionate as a way of "disciplining" the dog, and Daniel took issue with it. There was a dialogue, fairly heated near the end, where both Daniel's brother, his mom, and my brother said he was wrong. His mom mentioned a few choice words, which I thought indicative of a) the underlying humanity of all people including devout Catholics b)a pattern that wasn't unusual ie, had occurred many times previously.
It wasn't until Dusty tried to bite me that we put him down, but that argument that day made me really think about Daniel's perception of his "Voice". He is incredibly quiet most of the time, and when he does talk, it's very very quiet. His mom is quiet too, but not on that great a level.
Tim Buron is a great example, I don't think he's seen too many of his films, but I think he's sent me some really dark stuff. He sent me an animated image of a woman turning to look into the camera while their face distorted into some creepy "hag" archetype.
Posts: 1236 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
It's unclear whether your friend is currently suicidal or not. If not, just encourage/invite the friend to do things outside of the house and be more active. That will probably help more than anything else. If the friend wants to spend time with you then you have some influence to get him outside.
If the friend is suicidal, there's some advice that seems sensible to me here.
If you're in the same room with your friend, insist on having the blinds open, or at night having the lights on.
Sounds like the friend has no job? Living at home with mom? She's got to insist on limits to WoW time, or that he pay rent (and get a job), if he continues to live there. The access to the option of numbing himself in a video game all the time probably prevents him from dealing with life in a normal fashion. Of course, if he's actively suicidal it might not be the right time to add this kind of stress.
Posts: 4287 | Registered: Mar 2005
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My cousin was severely depressed and one day when I talked to her about it she said that the key to finding happiness was that it wasn't her but her depression taking control of her. I guess what ended up happening was that the depression just ended up running her life. She's on anti-depressants now and she says they work great, so I guess you should try and get them for him.
Posts: 1158 | Registered: Feb 2006
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He's living with my mom right now, and she set a deadline to get a job or be kicked out. He hasn't paid rent for 4 months at least. He's sent out a few applications, but the effort has been so...timid? It's barely there. No followups, and I don't think a single application deposited to the manager in person, a shake of the hand, et al.
The deadline is in 7 days, and I'm seriously considering options. It seems to me like our solutions so far have been just the typical "pick yerself up by your bootstraps!" kind of mentality.
Posts: 1236 | Registered: Mar 2002
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Earendil, I hope all works out with your friend.
This should go without saying, but just in case, please remember that the advice you are being given is just that, and that Hatrack and its owners/operators may not be held liable for any results from following/not following that advice, etc. (you agreed to something like this in the TOS, but I'm just tossing out a reminder).
I recognize that, as serious as the subject matter is in the first post, it seems kind of petty to be concerned about a couple of swear words, but I would really appreciate it if you would edit those out.
And as good as Hatrack is on nearly every subject, you're better off with professional assistance instead of amateur (as in non-professional, not necessarily substandard or untrained) advice, and from someone who will be able to learn more of the story (there's always more to the story). Again, I wish you and your friend well.
posted
Definitely don't give up! The most important thing you can do is show by your caring that his life means a lot to you. Ask him things and really listen to what he says. Don't ever, ever give up. Do your best to convince him to try things, try antidepressants, exercise, sleep, sunshine, diet, doctors, therapists, everything. Whatever is the key that unlocks the secret of his life will be there somewhere. It matters very very much that he live long enough to find those keys. Good luck and let us know how he's doing.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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quote: The deadline is in 7 days, and I'm seriously considering options.
The only way he can possibly do that is to find somewhere that will let him wait tables in the next few days. But that's not something you can do for him. You can offer the suggestion, but if he doesn't go get the job, it amounts to nothing.
On the other hand, moving out and being in charge of his own life may be the best thing for him. If he does have to move on, he'll need a couch to crash on (does he have any single guy friends?), a job to buy some groceries, and some help dealing with the side effects of going off WoW cold turkey. I'm only partially kidding on that last one.
The only thing you can really do is try to have that safety net on hand for him. If you know someone who might take him in for a month or so, talk to them now. See if you've got an extra bag of rice or a box of fish sticks you can give him as a moving out present. It's rough, and it feels insignificant, but really, it's all you can do. You can't live his life, and he wouldn't want you to even if you could.
He has to live his own life, for good or bad.
[Edit becuase I misunderstood whose mom he was living with.]
Posts: 2283 | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
I've been suicidal twice in my life, so this is my experience, and not medical advice, talking:
The only thing that can really draw a person back from the edge is the desire to live, and the only way to desire to live is to remember the good things in your life.
I don't think interventions help, but I do think being around love one's help a lot. For me, the second time I came out of a suicidal funk, and decided to get help, was after having my whole family and girlfriend over for my birthday. No one knew how bad a funk I was in. We simply had a good time, and afterwards I remembered why I want to live. Too many people I care about in my life.
I don't kno what the good things are in his life. Friends? Family? Certain activities? E.G. does he like bowling? If so, gather up a few of his friends who like to bowl and do an all day bowl-a-thon. Don't mention his emotional state, just go and laugh and bowl and drink mountain dew and eat chips until you explode. This method can be applied to any activity, and my honest opinion is that these types of things work better then intervention, because they remind us what we love about life. NOT that other people love us, which we know... we just don't care, when we are that depressed.
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
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A friend of mine committed suicide in May. He was 54 and left behind a wife, three sons and two grandchildren. He had just lost his fourth job in six years.
There were 200-300 people at his funeral. I leaned over to a co-worker and said that I wish our friend could have seen this before he made his decision. Maybe if he had known how many people his life had affected, how many people loved him, maybe he wouldn't have chosen that way. It's such a sad waste of life.
Posts: 2034 | Registered: Apr 2004
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"There were 200-300 people at his funeral. I leaned over to a co-worker and said that I wish our friend could have seen this before he made his decision. Maybe if he had known how many people his life had affected, how many people loved him, maybe he wouldn't have chosen that way."
As I said above, i'm not sure this really works. maybe it does for some people, but my experience with depression is that we KNOW other people care about us, most of the time... its just, we're so wrapped up in whatever is bad with our lives, that we don't care. Knowing other people count on you can keep you alive temporarily... but it doesn't draw you back from depression, so ultimately that knowledge isn't enough to prevent suicide.
Again, my opinion and experience with my own emotional state, and not to be taken as expert medical knowledge.
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
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I was checking for updates. How is your friend, Earendil?
A friend of mine committed suicide in high school. We none of us had any idea he was even depressed or suicidal in any way. We all cared about him a whole lot, and he was one of the best-liked among us. It was a horrible shock. I kept wanting to argue with him but he put himself beyond argument.
I relived that night over and over, when we saw him in the drive-through line at the bank, honked and waved, and didn't stop and ask him to join us. We didn't realize it but he was withdrawing all his money to leave it for us. He wanted us to throw a party in his memory with it. We should have stopped and talked to him at least. As many times as I've relived that night, I can't make it turn out differently than it did.
Please reach out to your friend. Please do everything you can to help him. There's a world of help available to him while he's living. If he dies there's no way to bring him back.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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He's been given another month to find a job, and my brother and I are encouraging him and helping him transportation-wise and other ways. If it comes to it, I'm sure my partner and I will be ok if he stays with us for a while.
As for what he likes. He's a clam, but he says he likes debating (but rarely engages because I'm sure he's been put down before, and "what's the point" etc), World of Warcraft, and other games. I'm not even sure if he got his GED, but he doesn't have too many skills, something he knows, but doesn't seem to do anything about. Thank you Paul for sharing your thoughts, they have been helpful.
Now that my bro has moved out, I really don't see him getting a job this month, and I see him moving in with my partner and I, more of a possibility, simply because NOW, it's just him, his bro, my mom and his.
I'm in Kirkland, he's back in Spokane. He's put in maybe...8 apps? I'm not sure. He's working with a temp agency, and a few other places. He seems to be making follow-up calls which is good. Meanwhile, though, I'm not so sure.
But there are at least 4 places hiring near me, so maybe he could move over here, be with friends, and get a job. Posts: 1236 | Registered: Mar 2002
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