posted
So I've been reading a book on Norse myths and it is sounding more and more like Tolkien's novels. For exampls, a prominent Dark Dwarf is named Durin, the same as LotR. That is the most evident link, but everything from the twelve gods and goddesses to the seperation of kingdoms to the light and dark elves seems to come from the same place.
I'm posting this not in confound-dom, but in an interest to find more links between the two. What am I missing? Also, what other mythical cosmologies was Tolkien working from?
It almost feels like these thirty-some-odd myths are an addition to the Silmarillion, along with the back story to American Gods and Long Dark Tea Time of the Soul.
I'm just getting into ancient religion (and their practical application today!) and am eager to learn more.
posted
He DID draw from those myths, but he also drew from other myths. There are some really famous letters he wrote that go into why he wrote the way he did, and what he hoped to accomplish by doing so.
I will see if I can remember where I read them, and will link back to them if I can remember. They were fascinating.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
So, do you think Odin is Gandalf? It would make more sense for him to be Manwe, but the physical description, except for the one eye, matches pretty well.
ETA: Actually, Manwe matches Freyr really well. Freyr is called the "First God", even though he technically wasn't the first (?). They both are known to be wise and well loved, but neither really produce much other than the order that comes with being respected above all.
Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
He drew heavily on the Finnish national myth, The Kalevala, as well as Anglo-Saxon stuff (the name Middle-Earth is from an Anglo-Saxon source, as is the name of Earendil. As I understand it, the tradition of dwarves and elves that Tolkien writes in comes from Northern European mythology.
But don't think he just lifted it all directly from that. He was the most amazingly inventive man, and so much of what he did was purely him.
Posts: 867 | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Also the book "Tolkien's Ring" by David Day. It's all about the mythologies Tolkien drew on for LOTR.
Posts: 2849 | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Tolkien was Rawlinson and Bosworth Professor of Anglo-Saxon at Oxford from 1925 to 1945, and later wrote a reference work on Beowolf - so it can be seen his interests have always been rooted in the languages and mythologies of Northern Europe.
What is the book you are reading Vonk? It sounds good.
Posts: 892 | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
If you read some Old English out loud, it sounds just like Elvish . . .
Lord of the Rings was based in major parts on The Ring of the Nibelung (HUGELY Germanic/Norse in mythologies and structure), which in turn was based on the Nibelungenlied (a High Middle German epic).
Posts: 1735 | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Tolkien was a linguist at heart. If you read his personal letters you learn that he wanted to dedicate his stories as a mythos for his own country. On par with the myths of the greeks, romans, and celts. If your are looking for connections between Tolkien and other things I'd highly recommend that you look at the Philology behind the names. For instance the word gandalfr originally was a Nordic and meant staff. Also the word Searu (as in Saruman) was "mechanism or machination) and The word Eyo meant horse. (think the names common in Rohan). Also the Old English name for central England was Maercia (pronounced: Markia) Also think Rohan, the riddermark or mark.
Posts: 208 | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
I recommend The Languages of Tolkien's Middle Earth by Ruth S. Noel. It talks about what languages Tolkien drew from.
Posts: 681 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by vonk: So, do you think Odin is Gandalf?
Tolkien is on record, IIRC, that the origin of Gandalf was a list of names in the Edda. There were all these dwarves, and then at the end you have "Gandalf" which could be "Staff elf" or "Wand elf." Tolkien got to wondering what this magically-endowed elf was doing among a bunch of dwarves. And, voila, it's time for a tea party.
Looking to the Silmarillion, Gandalf is not a member of the family of Gods, but rather one of the Maiar. So comparisons to Odin or Manwe seem a bit off.
To echo Philosophicle's point, Tolkien thought it would be interesting to reconstruct a coherent mythology out of the clues left in several of the great Anglo-Saxon epics. He drew inspiration from multiple sources, including the Eddas, the Ring cycle, and the Kalevala, among others.
Posts: 2926 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
There are at least two Odins: One is the chief of the Aesir, who doesn't do very much other than sit around collecting the souls of dead warriors in preparation for Ragnarok. We are told that his ravens bring him all the news of the world every morning, so presumably he is all-knowing (lots-knowing?) but we never see him do anything about it.
The other Odin, however, is the Grey Wanderer, a trickster-sorcerer archetype. He appears quite a bit in sagas of the Dark Ages (600-900), as opposed to the High Middle Ages that are usually associated with Vikings (900-1100), so he is less well known. (Also, I suspect a lot of his stories were taken over by King Olaf the Saint, and then faded when Christianity lost its grip in Scandinavia. If you dig a bit, Olaf does a lot of stuff that's not strictly very saint-like, or even Christian.) This Odin tends to make monkey's-paw bargains and lay long-lasting plans. Treachery is practically his middle name. So he's still not very like Gandalf, who is mysterious but moderately honourable, but he's a lot closer than the first one.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
That's interesting, KoM; I wasn't aware of the possible conflation of Olaf and Odin in his role as Gray Wanderer. I've been doing a little poking around online looking for stories about Olaf's exploits, but I'm not (yet) coming up with much.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: The other Odin, however, is the Grey Wanderer, a trickster-sorcerer archetype...This Odin tends to make monkey's-paw bargains and lay long-lasting plans. Treachery is practically his middle name. So he's still not very like Gandalf, who is mysterious but moderately honourable, but he's a lot closer than the first one.
I'd never heard of this either. Other than the name he seems to partake more of Loki than Odin. Gandalf as trickster, though, is evidenced in a couple places, preeminently in his encounter with the Trolls, but also perhaps his escape from Orthanc, his sudden appearance among the Goblins in the Misty Mountain tunnels, and even his ability with fireworks.
Posts: 2926 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: The other Odin, however, is the Grey Wanderer, a trickster-sorcerer archetype...This Odin tends to make monkey's-paw bargains and lay long-lasting plans. Treachery is practically his middle name. So he's still not very like Gandalf, who is mysterious but moderately honourable, but he's a lot closer than the first one.
I'd never heard of this either. Other than the name he seems to partake more of Loki than Odin. Gandalf as trickster, though, is evidenced in a couple places, preeminently in his encounter with the Trolls, but also perhaps his escape from Orthanc, his sudden appearance among the Goblins in the Misty Mountain tunnels, and even his ability with fireworks.
In other words, he has the same sense of humor minus the sadistic nature.
Posts: 1099 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Joldo: If you read some Old English out loud, it sounds just like Elvish . . .
Lord of the Rings was based in major parts on The Ring of the Nibelung (HUGELY Germanic/Norse in mythologies and structure), which in turn was based on the Nibelungenlied (a High Middle German epic).
I'm not so sure of either of those. Old English was used as the language of Rohan in the movies, and I've heard it spoken out loud in other places and I think it sounds nothing like Sindarin.
Also, in his collected letters, I'm pretty sure he has specifically refuted links to the Ring of the Nibelung.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Noemon: That's interesting, KoM; I wasn't aware of the possible conflation of Olaf and Odin in his role as Gray Wanderer. I've been doing a little poking around online looking for stories about Olaf's exploits, but I'm not (yet) coming up with much.
Please note: When I say "I suspect", I mean exactly that. I am not a scholar of Norwegian folklore, by any means.
Googling for king Olaf is probably easier in Norwegian; here's my translation of one result for "hellig-olav troll":
Once upon a time King Olav was building a church [as one does... In fact King Olaf doesn't seem to do much else.], and it had to be finished in a few days, or his son would be lost. [I wonder if some detail has gotten lost in the collection, here. The scenario doesn't seem very well fleshed out. A corruption of an older legend?] A troll came to the King and offered to build the church on time, but demanded for payment that the King should guess the troll's name, or else give it both Moon and Sun, or his son if that was too steep a price. The King agreed to this.
Now the work went swiftly, but the King took to pitying the Sun and Moon. [Let's note, kings are all very well, but giving away this sort of thing seems better suited to gods.] And it would be worse yet to give away his son. So he thought deeply on how to find the name of the troll. The evening before the church was to be finished, the king walked out in the forest and came to a mountain, and within the mountain lived a troll-wife. Now King Olav heard the troll-wife sing a lullaby for her crying child: "Sleep, sleep, little one. Tomorrow father Arnfinn comes home. He shall have the sun and moon, or Olav's son for your servant." [Not very tricksy, really, in this instance, just lucky or perhaps blessed.]
Now the next day the King went to the new church, where the troll was putting the final touches to the spire, and shouted "That's enough, Arnfinn!" And at this the troll fell off the spire in surprise, and died while he was at it. So the King had his church.
This is ML7065-560 at the University of Oslo's database Ariadne. It is collected from Hedmark in the east of Norway. The parallel to the story of how Odin acquired Sleipnir from the jotun (giant) who promised to build a wall around Asgard in a single year is pretty clear. Also a Rumpelstiltskin shout-out, which I haven't encountered before in Norwegian stories. King Olaf forcing trolls to build churches is a pretty common trope in these things, as is killing the troll at the end; or sometimes it converts to Christianity and is given a human soul.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by King of Men: The other Odin, however, is the Grey Wanderer, a trickster-sorcerer archetype...This Odin tends to make monkey's-paw bargains and lay long-lasting plans. Treachery is practically his middle name. So he's still not very like Gandalf, who is mysterious but moderately honourable, but he's a lot closer than the first one.
I'd never heard of this either. Other than the name he seems to partake more of Loki than Odin.
Um, yes. Odin's been cleaned up a bit by various national-romantic authors of the nineteenth century. He wasn't really very nice in the originals.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Thanks for translating that, KoM. I still haven't been able to dig up much, but I'll continue to look, and maybe see what I can find at the library.
In terms of the "Odin as trickster" stuff in general, I thought that Gaiman did a great job of capturing that aspect in American Gods.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I didn't realize there were two Odin's, as I have always heard both types of myths attributed to the same being/god.
I always liked the stories about the trickster side, even though I wouldn't have wanted to meet him.
I think the book I was remembering was Tolkien's Ring...IIRC it has letters he wrote as well as essays he wrote on the subject of Saxon original myths and what losing them meant to the English.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Joldo: If you read some Old English out loud, it sounds just like Elvish . . .
Lord of the Rings was based in major parts on The Ring of the Nibelung (HUGELY Germanic/Norse in mythologies and structure), which in turn was based on the Nibelungenlied (a High Middle German epic).
I'm not so sure of either of those. Old English was used as the language of Rohan in the movies, and I've heard it spoken out loud in other places and I think it sounds nothing like Sindarin.
Also, in his collected letters, I'm pretty sure he has specifically refuted links to the Ring of the Nibelung.
I believe the appendices describe more than one Elvish language. One of them was heavily based in Welsh. Rohan is much closer to Anglo-Saxon. I ran across a manuscript today called The Book of Rohan, even. Hobbit-related words are very Anglo-Saxon. Tolkien was well-acquainted with more than one ancient language, and the cultures he created are linguistically distinct, something I just love (and I'm lookin' at YOU when I say that, R.A. Salvatore).
Posts: 2849 | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:I'm not so sure of either of those. Old English was used as the language of Rohan in the movies, and I've heard it spoken out loud in other places and I think it sounds nothing like Sindarin.
Sindarin was based on Welsh, while the High Elf Language, Quenya was based more on Finnish. He explained the relationship of the two languages to be similar to the relationship between English and Latin.
I'll have to look up the languages he used for Rohan, but I think it was Old English.
Posts: 681 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
The language of Rohan was Old English. When Tolkien translated the Red Book of Westmarch from Westron or common speech into English, he decided to translate the language of Rohan, which the hobbits noted sounded familiar and had many elements in common with Westron, into something similar to English. Since he knew Old English too (as a linguist) it seemed the best choice.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Gandalf sort of tricked Bilbo into going on the quest to begin with, and he was also pretty tricky in the way he got Beorn to accept the party as guests, you know?
Another tricksy thing Gandalf did was trick the trolls into arguing with one another about how to cook 13 dwarves and a hobbit until the sun came out and turned them to stone.
It seems like Gandalf the trickster was particularly evident in the Hobbit. By the time the war of the ring began in earnest, he seemed much more straightforward.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:I'm not so sure of either of those. Old English was used as the language of Rohan in the movies, and I've heard it spoken out loud in other places and I think it sounds nothing like Sindarin.
Sindarin was based on Welsh, while the High Elf Language, Quenya was based more on Finnish. He explained the relationship of the two languages to be similar to the relationship between English and Latin.
I'll have to look up the languages he used for Rohan, but I think it was Old English.
Yeah that sounds more right. It's been awhile since I've read the behind the scenes type stuff. I'm much more up on the lore itself than the lore sources.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
The hobbits' language (as expressed in the names) was based on Hebrew. But as this was because Tolkien took their actual hobbitish names and rendered them into a language form reasonably familiar to the modern world, Hebrew is only a fairly arbitrary choice.
He said he chose Old English to render the language and names of Rohan because the Rohirrim reminded him culturally of Anglo-Saxons.
Posts: 867 | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
