quote:Proposition 8 was a democratic measure, it represents the voice of the people.
Up next, we're going to poll 30 wolves and 12 chickens on whether or not the wolves get to have chicken dinners...
Posts: 3852 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Jhai: ... Just because a right has restrictions (in the case of free speech, time/manner/place restrictions) doesn't fail to make it a right.
Our charter explicitly says this too.
quote: The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.
Edit to add: As an addition to the Jim Crow laws, I'm sure that the internment of Japanese Canadians and Americans in WWII would easily have passed the test of public support. I'm not even sure it would necessarily be opposed by the public today in a similar situation.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
"The LDS Church believes the Scripture about Homosexuality carries much, much, much more weight than the Scripture about Greed and the Need to aquire that which you don't Need."
You obviously have never, and I say this for other's because you won't care, listened to LDS Conference talks since at least the administration of Pres. Benson.
Posts: 2207 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
If the United States isn't a democracy, then why do we call it democratic? My take away from this discussion so far; The people's voice don't mean a thing! Voting is useless.
Posts: 2207 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
The fight against homosexuals and for criminalizing abortion is a great way for Churches to raise money, if a Church can never have enough money, or too much money, then Churches will continue to raise money using homosexuals and the criminalization of abortion.
Posts: 262 | Registered: Oct 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Occasional: If the United States isn't a democracy, then why do we call it democratic? My take away from this discussion so far; The people's voice don't mean a thing! Voting is useless.
Democratic WITH protections for minorities.
There's this document called the Constitution that talks about things like that.
Would you view it as fine if the 'people's voice' decided that YOU should be stripped of rights?
Posts: 3852 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Occasional: "The LDS Church believes the Scripture about Homosexuality carries much, much, much more weight than the Scripture about Greed and the Need to aquire that which you don't Need."
You obviously have never, and I say this for other's because you won't care, listened to LDS Conference talks since at least the administration of Pres. Benson.
Actions are louder than words.
Did the LDS Church invest over $8 billion dollars in the Stock Market?
Is the LDS Church worth over $50 billion dollars?
What is the definition of greed and how much does a Church need?
Posts: 262 | Registered: Oct 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Occasional: If the United States isn't a democracy, then why do we call it democratic? My take away from this discussion so far; The people's voice don't mean a thing! Voting is useless.
We *don't* actually call the United States simply a democracy, full stop.
quote:"You can't shout fire in a crowded movie theater."
Well, unless there's a fire.
Lisa, you are like one of those people that the Japanese officially designate as Living National Treasures.
Posts: 50 | Registered: Nov 2008
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quote:Watch the "Home Invasion" video on youtube. I don't think any reasonable person can say that video is not being deliberately dishonest in it's portrayal.
It's only dishonest if you believe people will take it literally. No, the Mormons won't knock on your door, steal your wedding rings and rip up your marriage license. But they do want to take away that marriage just the same. There is a certain violence and agression in that act which I think the commercial captures pretty well. The only thing dishonest about that ad, if taken literally, is that it portrays Mormons as physically aggressive rather than ideologically aggressive, but again I don't think anyone was intended to actually believe that the Mormons would be raiding homes.
Compared to the plain-spoken false arguments by the "yes" campaign, that ad was basically truthful.
Satan is the one who tells you lies while smiling sweetly, no?
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posted
Also, real Mormon missionaries are usually younger and slightly less scruffy, and they'd never think of spending any time alone in a house with two women.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Scott R: Where are you getting those numbers, UF?
From the 2006 lawsuit against the Church.
Spending lots of money on an anti-gay issue like Prop 8 allows the Church to generate money from their followers, who have been told that homosexuals do not deserve the same rights as heterosexual people and it is great advertising for the Church.
"Think Homosexuals are creepy and sinners? We agree! Check us out!"
It's breaking down the wall of Church and State without any evidence of homosexuals being inferior to heterosexuals without any proof other than "What our Holy Books say".
OSC himself said "Follow the Money."
Fighting gays is a billion dollar business.
Posts: 262 | Registered: Oct 2008
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posted
What's the intent of this thread? Are we really here to bludgeon each other?
I'm glad Prop 8 passed. I'm glad that millions of Californians in both parties still believe marriage should be understood as being between a man and a woman. I hope the result stands.
I have a hard time writing that paragraph, not because I feel it's wrong or shameful, but because I'm afraid of being shouted down by people I respect. I understand we all feel passionately about the issue, but when that passion gives way to degradation and emotional belittling, I think the mores of civil society are being shaken.
Which is all to say, from my perspective, it would be nice if we could try to disagree without being so disagreeable. Or perhaps I just have a low tolerance for the style of combative dialogue that seems to have become the norm in this thread.
Posts: 2926 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
I think moral high ground is very important in a debate. I was just trying to help you people see their side of things. I don't really disagree with you. Then I was called racist. This is just sad.
Posts: 1287 | Registered: Apr 2006
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BB: in that case there are no rights other than the ideas in one's head, and even those are disturbingly easy to interfere with.
If you define rights out of existence, it is easy to say things aren't rights.
As for the "decided by a majority" idea, I think the idea that a simple majority can amend a Constitution is repulsive. Constitutions are things that should be guided by supramajorities, since they are the law of the land that trumps other laws. I mean, there are people who get upset about the fairly stringent conditions for passing a US constitutional amendment being too loose.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
I think it's important to note that people within the church don't profit from these funds generated. They are used to build temples and whatnot.
We are an unpayed clergy, quite unlike most local churches who profit from their followers. The LDS church is not a business.
Posts: 332 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
It's funny...You talk about how much money the church has, but fail to mention how much it gives to third world nations, the homeless, the jobless, etc. You also cleverly ignore the fact that no one but full time employees in the church are actually *paid*. And they're not really paid *well* Even the prophet gets a relatively small living allowance. Any money the apostles have was gained entirely through their own careers prior to becoming leaders in the church.
Posts: 3003 | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Exit polls for The Associated Press found that Proposition 8 received critical support from black voters who flocked to the polls to support Barack Obama for president. Blacks voted strongly in favor of the ban, while whites narrowly opposed it and Latinos and Asians were split.
Smells like irony to me...
Posts: 1918 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
"I hasten to add that we deal only with those legislative matters which are of a strictly moral nature or which directly affect the welfare of the Church. We have opposed gambling and liquor and will continue to do so. We regard it as not only our right but our duty to oppose those forces which we feel undermine the moral fiber of society." - G.B. Hinckley
How can the LDS Church oppose gambling, yet invest BILLIONS in the stock market? The stock market is not a gamble?
TO GAMBLE
1 a: to play a game for money or property b: to bet on an uncertain outcome 2: to stake something on a contingency : take a chance transitive verb 1: to risk by gambling : wager 2: venture , hazard
How can a $50 Billion dollar Church oppose Greed?
Posts: 262 | Registered: Oct 2008
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quote:Originally posted by DarkKnight: I see that Mormons are being blamed for this which is why I found this article fascinating California voters approve gay-marriage ban
quote:Exit polls for The Associated Press found that Proposition 8 received critical support from black voters who flocked to the polls to support Barack Obama for president. Blacks voted strongly in favor of the ban, while whites narrowly opposed it and Latinos and Asians were split.
Smells like irony to me...
Did you quote the right article?
The closest paragraph to your quote in the article is this:
quote: Exit polls for The Associated Press found that Proposition 8 received critical support from black voters who flocked to the polls to support Barack Obama for president. About seven in 10 blacks voted in favor of the ban, while Latinos also supported it and whites were split.
Note that Asians are absent from the latter one and whites change from opposition to split.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
Mucus, I definitely did. I am looking at two different articles from the same link right now. AP must have decided to change the article? How very curious.... EDIT: When I refreshed my original page I now have AP's update story. I wonder why they changed it?
Posts: 1918 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
How can the Church judge people but be free of Judgement?
How can a Church openly take a side, yet be offended by those who disagree?
How come a Church is allowed to say 'people are wrong' but people are not allowed to say the Church is wrong?
Posts: 262 | Registered: Oct 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Unicorn Feelings: "I hasten to add that we deal only with those legislative matters which are of a strictly moral nature or which directly affect the welfare of the Church. We have opposed gambling and liquor and will continue to do so. We regard it as not only our right but our duty to oppose those forces which we feel undermine the moral fiber of society." - G.B. Hinckley
How can the LDS Church oppose gambling, yet invest BILLIONS in the stock market? The stock market is not a gamble?
TO GAMBLE
1 a: to play a game for money or property b: to bet on an uncertain outcome 2: to stake something on a contingency : take a chance transitive verb 1: to risk by gambling : wager 2: venture , hazard
How can a $50 Billion dollar Church oppose Greed?
*WHAM* Pay attention, you self righteous *expletive self-edited*. Did I just not say that the church gives away a very very large percentage of that money each year? You're trying very hard to convince people of half-truths. But let's face it. A half-truth is still a complete lie.
Posts: 3003 | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:I have a hard time writing that paragraph, not because I feel it's wrong or shameful, but because I'm afraid of being shouted down by people I respect. I understand we all feel passionately about the issue, but when that passion gives way to degradation and emotional belittling, I think the mores of civil society are being shaken.
If you get shouted down, it's because you are viewed as being against a civil rights issue.
I understand you don't see it that way. But that doesn't change the fact that this is a civil rights issue, and that to see people who you respect making a stand against civil rights is frustrating, infuriating and repulsive.
I don't mean to call you, or anyone, repulsive, but that is the feeling that is created in me when I see Americans voting to take away the rights of other Americans.
Posts: 3852 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Originally posted by DarkKnight: Mucus, I definitely did. I am looking at two different articles from the same link right now. AP must have decided to change the article? How very curious.... EDIT: When I refreshed my original page I now have AP's update story. I wonder why they changed it?
Probably because they were wrong, Asians shouldn't be particularly split on the issue. Polls on among Asian Americans reported strong opposition to the proposition.
quote: The poll found that 57 percent of Asian-Americans likely to vote in the Nov. 4 election oppose Proposition 8, which would reverse May's California Supreme Court ruling that gave gay and lesbian couples the right to marry. Only 32 percent planned to vote yes. Eleven percent were undecided.
Nearly 1,900 Asian-Americans in the state were interviewed by telephone in eight languages from Aug. 18 to Sept. 26. The survey was the largest scientific poll of Asian-American voters ever done both nationally and in California.
quote:Originally posted by fugu13: As for the "decided by a majority" idea, I think the idea that a simple majority can amend a Constitution is repulsive. Constitutions are things that should be guided by supramajorities, since they are the law of the land that trumps other laws. I mean, there are people who get upset about the fairly stringent conditions for passing a US constitutional amendment being too loose.
I absolutely agree. Supermajorities should be required to ammend constitutions. In fact, I believe that in order for us to ammend our constitution at the state level, we should be required to form regional (say county-wide) caucuses just to decide if we should put the measure on the ballot in the first place.
The unintended consequence of this decision will be another terrific example to many Californians of how underrepresented our voices are in our country, and even in our own state. When money from outside of our state can be used to hammer this change through on a simple majority- I see it as a breach of our sovereignty.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Javert: I don't mean to call you, or anyone, repulsive, but that is the feeling that is created in me when I see Americans voting to take away the rights of other Americans.
There's also an entry in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism here.
The $50 Billion UF is citing seems high, considering the cited estimates are around $30 Billion eight years ago. Furthermore, most of that money (appr. 2/3 according to the wiki) is tied to buildings throughout the world.
From my perspective having distributed church funds on a local level, the majority go to those who are unable to house or feed themselves. There are also large disbursements for local activities (like our annual wreath-making Christmas party and attending Boy Scout camps). Outside of my local purview, but very much a part of the LDS financial picture, are the large emergency disbursments that take place around the world in response to local catastrophes, as well as large educational grants to members getting minimal post-primary education in many countries throughout the world. My parents presided for a time over the humanitarian efforts of the church in Brazil, and were primarily responsible for distributing wheel chairs to charities, and working with local volunteers to supply food, clothes, homes, and hospital care to people who could not afford it.
To insinuate that because the church is greedy because it has a large budget (necessitating large holdings) is wrong. The church uses the funds given it by the membership to improve the lives of people throughout the world, primarily spiritually but also temporally to a significant degree.
Furthermore, no church funds were used to support Prop 8, although the church did pay appr. $2000 in travel expenses for church leaders who traveled to CA to meet with Prop 8 supporters.
Posts: 2926 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Lanfear: I think it's important to note that people within the church don't profit from these funds generated. They are used to build temples and whatnot.
We are an unpayed clergy, quite unlike most local churches who profit from their followers. The LDS church is not a business.
Other churches are also non-profit organizations. They pay their employees, just like the LDS church does. The fact that different denominations have different categories of which roles are filled by employees and which by volunteers does not mean that some are "profiting off their followers" and others aren't.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:that is the feeling that is created in me when I see Americans voting to take away the rights of other Americans.
Can you explain what rights were removed with the passage of prop 8?
They had it before prop 8 passed. And now they don't. You can figure it out.
Let's put forward a prop to remove the rights of Mormons to marry other Mormons. After all, they can still get married...to non Mormons.
Posts: 3852 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Lanfear: The LDS church is not a business.
...but they own
AgReserves Inc. - the largest producer of nuts in America.[1]
Hawaii Reserves, Inc. - Miscellaneous church holdings in Hawaii.
Along with the Polynesian Cultural Center (the leading for-profit visitor attraction in Hawaii[23]) and Brigham Young University-Hawaii, Hawaii Reserves generated revenue of $260 million for the Hawaii economy in 2005.[24]
Farmland Reserve Inc. - 228,000 acres (923 kmē) in Nebraska,[25] and over 312,000 acres (1,260 kmē) in Florida (dba Deseret Cattle and Citrus).[26]
Bonneville International Corporation - the 14th largest radio chain in the U.S.[1]
Deseret Morning News - a daily Utah newspaper, second-largest in the state.[27]
Beneficial Financial Group - An insurance and financial services company with assets of $3.1 billion.[28]
Why does a Church NEED to own an insurance and financial services company??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
Posts: 262 | Registered: Oct 2008
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quote: Probably because they were wrong, Asians shouldn't be particularly split on the issue. Polls on among Asian Americans reported strong opposition to the proposition.
Good find and a good reason to change the article. I still think it is fascinating that Mormons are being 'blamed' in many articles I have read and yet black voters who came out for Obama voted overwhelmingly in support of Prop 8.
Posts: 1918 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Javert: I don't mean to call you, or anyone, repulsive, but that is the feeling that is created in me when I see Americans voting to take away the rights of other Americans.
Yeah but dude... your like, gay, and stuff...
Actually I'm heterosexual. Not that it should matter. Civil rights are civil rights.
Posts: 3852 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:I have a hard time writing that paragraph, not because I feel it's wrong or shameful, but because I'm afraid of being shouted down by people I respect.
I won't shout you down. But I do respect you less because of your support for this proposition. It's harmful and offensive and based in bigotry and superstition, and I suspect you'll live to regret it. I recognize that you believe you were doing something good; I also quite firmly believe that you were absolutely, completely wrong.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote: Probably because they were wrong, Asians shouldn't be particularly split on the issue. Polls on among Asian Americans reported strong opposition to the proposition.
Good find and a good reason to change the article. I still think it is fascinating that Mormons are being 'blamed' in many articles I have read and yet black voters who came out for Obama voted overwhelmingly in support of Prop 8.
The stuff I've read in which Mormons are being blamed cites spending rather than votes.
Edit: Actually, I misremembered what I read, which wasn't specifically about Mormons at all.
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