quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: At least Sarah Palin took on the corrupt political machine, and actually drove many of the miscreants out of office. Obama never blew the whistle on anyone, just went along and accepted all the support he could get--even from people like William Ayers and Tony Rezko.
Yeah, that's exactly how it went down. Plus he palled around with Ayers, which of course involves a lot of back slapping and winking and joint passing. TOTALLY!
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
(Warning - Many bleeped out obscenities in the rest of the article)
quote:In what is being called one of the most daring escape attempts in the history of law enforcement, Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich today offered the U.S. Senate seat vacated by President-elect Barack Obama to the FBI agent who took him into Federal custody this morning.
According to U.S. Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald, the astonishing escape attempt occurred moments after Mr. Blagojevich was handcuffed by the agent, who was wearing a wire and captured the entire expletive-laden offer on tape.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: At least Sarah Palin took on the corrupt political machine, and actually drove many of the miscreants out of office. Obama never blew the whistle on anyone, just went along and accepted all the support he could get--even from people like William Ayers and Tony Rezko.
Yeah, that's exactly how it went down. Plus he palled around with Ayers, which of course involves a lot of back slapping and winking and joint passing. TOTALLY!
Interestingly enough, it's looking like Obama's people are the ones who finally did.
quote:Originally posted by Morbo: The previous governor in jail is a Republican. Do some homework...[yada yada yada].
Morbo, political corruption and machine politics are not necessarily confined to one party. In the case of the political corruption in Alaska that Sarah Palin succesfully opposed, part of the corruption was in her own party. She took the place of a Republican incumbent governor.
Noeman, about Obama not being a U.S. citizen--the actual issue is whether he qualifies as being a NATURAL BORN U.S. Citizen.
The question was brought to one Supreme Court justice by an attorney, who was then told he lacked the proper standing to bring suit over Obama's constitutional qualification to be president. The question was then apparently put up as a "jump ball" for the other justices to play with it if they wished. I haven't heard that anyone rose to the challenge.
But now some people who do have the proper standing (certified candidates in the same election and their electors) to bring this lawsuit before the Supreme Court have filed in California and in Mississippi, and plans are being made to file similar lawsuits in other states. These the Supreme Court will have to deal with, even if it takes more than a year for the process.
This paragraph is in the petitions:
quote:"Should Senator Obama be discovered, after he takes office, to be ineligible for the Office of President of the United States of America and, thereby, his election declared void, Petitioners, as well as other Americans, will suffer irreparable harm in that an usurper will be sitting as the President of the United States, and none of the treaties, laws, or executive orders signed by him will be valid or legal."
posted
katharina, Tin foil hats make poor lightning rods unless they are grounded.
Ridicule may feel good, but there is no substance in it, especially for those who have been careless about the details and hope to laugh their way through the continued controversy. Team Obama's response to these lawsuits is that they are just "garbage." That is not very substantive. It does not deal with the serious questions that do still remain about whether Obama was born in Hawaii, or in Kenya (as his own relatives claim).
What would do the Obama lawyers good would be for them to state which hospital in Honolulu Obama was allegedly born in, and who was the attending physician (so that corroboration will be possible).
Keep your eye on Obama's relatives in Kenya--if any of them suddenly disappear or die under mysterious circumstances, then we will all know that things have taken a real turn for the dark side.
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
There is an official birth certificate and an announcement in the paper from the time. The tin foil hat is completely appropriate.
As the man himself said, if his family was planning on him running for president in a half century time, they would not have given him the middle name of "Hussein."
quote:in Kenya (as his own relatives claim).
Absolute, complete baloney. I can't tell if you really think this or if you are just enthusiastically spreading what you know isn't true.
When asked if Obama was born in Kenya, his grandmother replied "He was born in Hawaii."
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Morbo, political corruption and machine politics are not necessarily confined to one party. In the case of the political corruption in Alaska that Sarah Palin succesfully opposed, part of the corruption was in her own party. She took the place of a Republican incumbent governor.
About Palin, very true, and I give her props for that.
But you previously said:
quote: They said on the news I listened to that the previous governor of Illinois is currently in jail. This is the corrupt political machine that produced Barack Obama.
There is a Democratic machine in Illinois. The previous Republican governor now in jail was not a part of it, and has no relation to Obama. So your original quote made no sense.
BTW, Ron, I mostly agreed with you in the Big 3 hypocracy thread. Just sayin' Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
The previous governor may have belonged to a different party, but he operated in the same corrupt climate. The behind-the-scenes facilitators, a.k.a. the beaurocrats, often hang around and ply their trades for both parties. But just the fact that this kind of behavior seems to be endemic in Illinois (and especially in Chicago) politics, and has been for decades (remember the old 1960s "Boss Daley"?), tarnishes the reputation of the governments involved, and makes it seem reasonable to look with suspicion on any politician coming out of that milieu.
I have known people who have had to deal with Chicago government on church business, obtaining permits or whatever, and they told me they were shocked to discover that they were routinely expected to give bribes on every level of government. This is how government was done as a rule, not an exception. Granted, this was a couple of decades ago that I heard about this, and I cannot say if it is still true. I hope not, but it does not sound like any great reform has come to Al Capone Land.
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
My goodness this guy is an idiot. I don't know a whole heck of a lot about him, but wasn't he already in trouble for like a half dozen things before this? It either takes a special kind of God complex to think you can do whatever you want and get away with it, or he's just beyond the normal realms of STUPID.
Duckworth, Jesse Jackson Jr, and Valerie Jarrett are the three names I hear tossed around the most. They all bring up different issues. Tammy Duckworth isn't considered at all a contender to take up a reelection campaign when the seat expires in the next midterm election. She'd be a placeholder at best. JJJ is looked to as a guy who has more statewide name recognition than the other two, which would help him hold onto the seat in 2010. Jarrett on the other hand is a close friend to Obama, and any other Governor might have considered her for the spot in an effort to send someone to the Senate who will obviously work with Obama. Apparently Blagovich isn't any other governor though. I don't know any of the candidates well enough to say who I'd prefer, or for that matter who I think is best.
I'm sketchy on the whole "appointing himself" thing. Near as I can tell he isn't allowed to hold two offices at once like that, which would mean he'd have to resign and have his Lieutenant Governor take his spot and then appoint him, and I can't imagine any Lt. Gov would actually do it. And even if they did, yes, the Senate can refuse to seat him, though I'd call 50/50 odds on them actually doing that. Losing a valuable seat would hurt, but allowing a guy as tainted as he is into the Democratic caucus could be its own political firestorm.
There's a little controversy going on in Deleware over the appointment to fill Biden's spot, which many consider a placefiller until his son Beau Biden comes back from his military deployment and run for the seat in 2010 (the appointment I believe only lasts until the next major election, not the entire term). But that's another story.
But take everything I say with a grain of salt. You all saw what I said about Obama in the Christopher Walken thread. Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I get this image in my head of a self-appointed Senator being dragged from the Senate chamber by police screaming "And... I propose a bill that we give all the third-born children in America FREE BANANAS!... And a military contract for Illinois for a aircraft carrier that doubles as a PARADE FLOAT!... And.."
More seriously, I can't help but wonder if there is a special election (as seems likely) if the governor's shenanigans might not lead to a backlash against the Democrats.
As far as Obama... He won. Get over it. Sheesh.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: And even if they did, yes, the Senate can refuse to seat him, though I'd call 50/50 odds on them actually doing that.
Evidently that's not necessarily true. Here's a post at fivethirtyeight that explains what the constitutional issues might be. Essentially there is a difference in how appointees and electees are handled; the Senate can choose not to seat an electee, but not an appointee (unless the appointment violates necessary conditions of age, citizenship, etc).
Posts: 2926 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
That was before the US Supreme Court found such exclusions unconstitutional (although the wikisummary doesn't make any distinction between appointment and election, unlike the legal summary at fivethirtyeight; I don't know which is more accurate).
Posts: 2926 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
It is a little different, too, because Powell was already a member of the House (and had been for quite some time) and had been elected rather than appointed.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I've been wondering if Blago could still just appoint himself. It sounds like our State Attorney General would immediately bring him up on conflict of interest charges if he did try that maneuver.
Posts: 11265 | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
While it is considered somewhat gauche, appointing yourself is pretty common, and not illegal.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think the man might be insane enough to do it. I suspect if there is corruption involved they might be able to declare the appointment void, but it doesn't seem like there is much legal precedent.
Also our kmbboots was prescient about the "Lady MacBeth" bit.
posted
I haven't checked this out, but if my recent memory of readings is correct...
Blagojevich can appoint himself to the seat.
The Senate will have to accept the appointment.
However, once he's sworn in, they can vote to expel him - and I don't think there would be a problem getting the votes to do that.
Posts: 4344 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:President-elect Barack Obama believes that Gov. Rod Blagojevich should resign, his advisers said on Wednesday. "The President-elect agrees with Lt. Gov. Quinn and many others that under the current circumstances it is difficult for the governor to effectively do his job and serve the people of Illinois," Robert Gibbs, the incoming White House press secretary, said.
posted
If Gov. Blagojevich were to appoint himself to the Senate seat vacated by Barack Obama, and then the Senate voted to expell him from the Senate, would he still get the cushy retirement and other benefits enjoyed by former Senators as an entitlement?
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
It's probably a moot point. He may have only a couple of days to try that maneuver. The Illinois legislature is meeting on Monday to vote on a measure that would change the law in Illinois - so that a vacant Senate seat would be filled through a special election. It should get a veto-proof majority.
According to the Illinois Attorney General, she would challenge any self-appointment by Blagojevich on a "conflict of interest" basis. Traditionally, Governors who get to fill a Senate vacancy do so by resigning and relying on their successor to appoint them to the seat.
posted
Which cushy retirement benefits are those, Ron? They are part of the regular federal retirement system which, while good, is hardly "cushy."
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Dagonee, members of Congress get a whole lot better retirement package than I do, or most other Americans. Not to mention health care, dental, etc. And you don't even have to serve for 20 or 30 years, like big city government plans require for their workers.
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: They said on the news I listened to that the previous governor of Illinois is currently in jail. This is the corrupt political machine that produced Barack Obama.
Interestingly enough, one of the tapes has the governor berating the Obama campaign for not giving him more than, "appreciation."
But hey guilt by association right?
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: And even if they did, yes, the Senate can refuse to seat him, though I'd call 50/50 odds on them actually doing that.
Evidently that's not necessarily true. Here's a post at fivethirtyeight that explains what the constitutional issues might be. Essentially there is a difference in how appointees and electees are handled; the Senate can choose not to seat an electee, but not an appointee (unless the appointment violates necessary conditions of age, citizenship, etc).
Interesting. I wasn't aware of the distinction.
I'll have to check out that article when I get the chance. Thanks.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
If you grow up in a manure pile, you are more likely to be a mushroom than a rose. Some people do rise above their origins. But mushrooms require thorough washing.
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged |
Here's Madigan the state AG saying that she has a number of options to keep Blago from appointing himself. On the other hand she isn't quoting legal chapter and verse so I'm not sure how many options she really has.
Posts: 11265 | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:If you grow up in a manure pile, you are more likely to be a mushroom than a rose. Some people do rise above their origins. But mushrooms require thorough washing.
posted
Short-term Senators do not automatically get full retirement benefits. I don't know the details, but I know that the person Ventura appointed to fill out Wellstone's Senate seat does not have health insurance.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: But now some people who do have the proper standing (certified candidates in the same election and their electors) to bring this lawsuit before the Supreme Court have filed in California and in Mississippi, and plans are being made to file similar lawsuits in other states. These the Supreme Court will have to deal with, even if it takes more than a year for the process.
HAH. I believe it's one of the perks of being on the supreme court that the justices get to decide what cases come before them. So, iirc, they won't "have to deal with," anything if they don't feel like it.
And this is most certainly, emphatically, a situation they will not care to deal with.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Ridicule may feel good, but there is no substance in it, especially for those who have been careless about the details and hope to laugh their way through the continued controversy. Team Obama's response to these lawsuits is that they are just "garbage." That is not very substantive. It does not deal with the serious questions that do still remain about whether Obama was born in Hawaii, or in Kenya (as his own relatives claim).
Ah, ok I get it. You think that the world has to slow down to accommodate idiots and charlatans and their various grandiose claims of respectability and credibility even though they cannot satisfy the opposition with enough evidence even to warrant more than offhanded and flat denial of their credentials, their theories, and their supposed evidence.
Gee whiz, it occurs to me that if these people had anything substantively real or useful to say, or if at any time their claims approached a level of reality that demanded attention, magically smarter and more reliable people than you would notice. But then there's all the very easily accessible and totally reliable evidence that they're not only wrong, but that they are in fact lying about their own belief in their accusations.
But no, part of what attracts you to conspiracy theories and assorted nonsense is the romantic and egotistical belief that you might be capable of seeing something no one else can see. What better way than by championing causes that no one takes seriously? You can forever cry-foul, and claim martyrdom, and you can better control people's reactions to you, rather than if you ever attempted to be actually truthful or reasonable.
So as a self-branded conservative heretic, you're no better than the hippies and counter-culturalists (including Ayers) of the 1960s who decided, quite without any sense of perspective, that they were so right about things, they should jump into the machinery of our society and sabotage it with their own excessive lifestyles. You are just like that.
So far, you're it. So don't be surprised if I sleep soundly knowing you're on the case.
Edit: But hey, that's what's great about you Ron! You haven't been right about Obama, to my knowledge, even one time through this whole election process. I suppose a compass with the poles reversed is not necessarily broken, just reliably inaccurate. I'll start worrying when you do say something useful.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: Which cushy retirement benefits are those, Ron? They are part of the regular federal retirement system which, while good, is hardly "cushy."
Please Dag, anything that is actually good = cushy. In order to meet Ron's standards, the retirement system must inherently suck.
I mean, what good is a retirement system that is good for the people who are in it? What, moreover, does Ron get out of the deal?
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: If you grow up in a manure pile, you are more likely to be a mushroom than a rose. Some people do rise above their origins. But mushrooms require thorough washing.
Actually, roses grow much better in manure than mushrooms do.
Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:You can forever cry-foul, and claim martyrdom, and you can better control people's reactions to you, rather than if you ever attempted to be actually truthful or reasonable.
Hmmm, there are ironic similarities between those reactions and those of Blagojevich himself...
Posts: 11265 | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Uhuh. And Hitler was a vegetarian and Eisenhower's mother made him wear a dress and Abe Lincoln was gay, blahdy blahdy bla.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Team Obama's response to these lawsuits is that they are just "garbage." That is not very substantive. It does not deal with the serious questions that do still remain about whether Obama was born in Hawaii, or in Kenya (as his own relatives claim).
posted
Here's another left-wing source criticizing the lawsuits regarding Obama's citizenship and alleged lack thereof -- David Horowitz at the National Review:
quote:Obama Derangement Syndrome Shut up about the birth certificate.
By David Horowitz
The continuing efforts of a fringe group of conservatives to deny Obama his victory and to lay the basis for the claim that he is not a legitimate president are embarrassing and destructive. The fact that these efforts are being led by Alan Keyes, a demagogue who lost a Senate election to the then-unknown Obama by 42 points, should be a warning in itself.
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
