quote:Occam's Razor says it's the same day we have it now.
Occam's Razor doesn't draw conclusions. The only information you can draw from Occam's razor is where to start your investigation, not where it ends.
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Dagonee, I would appreciate it if you would quit lying about me and indulging in base insults. Such things have no place in civilized discussion. It is very likely that I know far more about Catholic theology than you do. Certainly I have read the Catholic catechisms for myself. So have lots of other people. Catholics seem to feel the need to play with the way the commandments are listed for some reason.
You want to say that when Catholics bow down to images of saints in their churches they are not really worshipping them? OK fine. But may I point out, the pagans who bowed to the image of Neptune (the very same statue which in Rome is now called an icon of Saint Peter), they claimed they were not really worshipping the image either, but the god it represents.
Would admitting the obvious really kill you?
[ January 03, 2009, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: Ron Lambert ]
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quote:Dagonee, I would appreciate it if you would quit lying about me and indulging in base insults. Such things have no place in civilized discussion.
I agree. Which is why I would like you to stop engaging in them. But I know you won't, because you quite simply never do.
I haven't lied about you. I have corrected your errors such a large number of times that I no longer believe you are engaging in simple error. You are deliberately spreading lies. You've learned your lessons well.
quote:It is very likely that I know far more about Catholic theology than you do.
You exhibit such basic misunderstandings of Catholic theology that, if what you've discussed here is any indicator, your knowledge of Catholic theology is actually negative.
You are utterly incapable about talking accurately about what others believe, at least here. Usually I laugh it off. But your continued dishonest anti-Catholic propaganda has gotten very, very old on this site.
quote:Certainly I have read the Catholic catechisms for myself.
I've checked three catechisms - two printed and one online - and your description is wrong in all three. Each deals in depth with the portion you say they are hiding.
Similarly, what you say about bowing down to images of saints is wrong as well.
If you can't bother to be accurate, then stop talking about it at all. I'm sick to death of having to put up with your <bleeped for Samprimary's sensitive little eyes> here.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Jesus said: "For the Son of Man is Lord even of the sabbath day." (Matthew 12:8; see also Mark 2:28; Luke 6:5.) So which day did Jesus say was His day in a special sense? He claimed lordship of the Sabbath day.
Meaning Jesus is not the Lord of every other day, too? I don't agree with your logic. It doesn't even make basic sense. When Jesus said He was lord "even of the sabbath," He is saying He has prerogative. It downplays the importance of the sabbath, not the reverse.
quote: As for the discussion about images, and the claim that those who bow down to icons of saints are not "worshipping" them: Why is it that Catholics divide the Ten Commandments differently from most others, lumping the commandment about not making any graven images and bowing down to them, with the first commandment, that says we are to have no other gods before the true God? Catholics, when they summarize the commandments in all their catechisms, leave out entirely the words of what most others view as the second commandment, even though they do not deny that the text is there.
Why is it that certain religious perspectives in the west seem to be based entirely on anti-Catholicism, such that if anti-Catholicism weren't in the picture, they would simply blow away in the wind? That's the feeling I get, at any rate.
Nevertheless, I feel I should explain something I thought was obvious by now: I'm not Catholic. You'll have to ask someone else why Catholics do what they do.
As for the Orthodox, I could try to explain the veneration of icons to you, but I think it would likely be a waste of time besides being a further hijack of the thread.
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quote:I'm sick to death of having to put up with your bullshit here.
wah wah wah TOS TOS TOS
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Would admitting the obvious really kill you?
I dunno. You frequently act as though you are some sort of supernatural creature that would meet a grisly end if you ever, ever, even for a second, stopped being a complete imbecile about religion or politics.
So, you carefully check and recheck your posts, to make sure. "Is this post ignorant enough? Does it have enough lies and crass generalizations? Am I throwing in enough arrogant generalizations of people I disagree with? Heaven forbid this be the post that kills me."
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Occam's Razor can be found on the leader of Talon Company. It's superior to normal combat knives but as a light combat weapon it is still almost entirely useless, given that action point usage is not dramatically effected by the size of weapons and that no melee weapon can be targeted to specific body parts in VATS.
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quote:Originally posted by Occasional: "I understand, but [fill in the religious blank] has its own definitions of such things."
This, I find, is the one reason inter-religious conversations and understandings are mostly useless. Most disagreements boil down to what the believer understands about themselves and what those who are not believers insist it "really" means.
I'm not sure that's true.
I learned a whole lot about different sects of Christianity just through this thread and I found it pretty useful.
As for the debate on icons - yeah, so Jews believe one thing and most Christians another. ::shrug:: I think Lisa just wanted to make it clear that not everyone believes that icons and idols are different.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Like I said, shituf is idolatry even for non-Jews according to the vast majority of authorities. But Christianity is more than just shituf. And forms of Christianity that use icons in their worship... whatever.
Icons are not idols, contrary to what you may have heard from Chick Publications.
I understand, but Judaism has its own definitions of such things.
It's my understanding- feel free to correct it- that the prohibition of "graven images" refers to images in relief, i.e. statues and the like. Dura Europa shows that synagogues at the time of Jesus had fresco painting which is much like the tradition of icons, depicting "heroes of the faith" and patrons of that particular meeting place.
Graven images, we aren't allowed to have at all. But even non-graven images aren't allowed to be part of our worship. You can't for example, have a photo on the front of the ark containing the Torah. In fact, you aren't allowed to pray facing a reflective surface.
In any case, praying to a human being, whether you think he was a deity or not, is idolatry by Jewish definition.
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Armoth, Lisa, and others have made very good points that the Jews have been keeping the Sabbath every week throughout their history, and that when God gave them the Ten Commandments on Mt. Sinai, He surely would have made sure they knew which day He was talking about when He said "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy."
You recognize that, and yet you refuse to acknowledge that we've passed down the rest of what God told us.
It isn't only Jews who are stiff-necked.
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Oh. If "Occam's razor" is supposed to be a straight razor used as a weapon, I got news for you. Unless your opponent is lying exposed in a non-defensive position, a straight razor is just as likely to cut off the fingers of the attacker as it is to do damage to the opponent. I cringe every time I see someone in a movie slinging a straight razor around like a set of nunchucks.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: In any case, praying to a human being, whether you think he was a deity or not, is idolatry by Jewish definition.
Understood, but that is taking issue with the essence of Christianity, not specifically with "those who use icons in their worship."
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The dates of everything in this topic have been changed. The first post on page one is dated Dec. 29, 2008.
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That's certainly about when I remember it being posted. When do you recall it being posted, Ron?
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Well, I guess now we know how Sunday/Saturday (delete as applicable) got to be the day of rest. Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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I thought so, certainly. Fortunately for you, I am not in charge of your grades, pay, or social status, so you are free not to laugh or even smile. Aren't you lucky?
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Lisa, I realize you claim the Bible (O.T.) and all its promises exclusively for Jews, but your tradition aside, the Bible does not support your proprietary claims. God's Covenant with Abraham was for the purpose that "In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed...." (Genesis 22:18a)
The Sabbath was created on the seventh day of Creation Week, when Adam alone was the entire human race. There is no way you can claim that for yourself. The fourth commandment does not say the seventh day is the Sabbath because God was making it an exclusive covenant for the Jews, it says the seventh day is the Sabbath because God set aside the seventh day of Creation Week as a memorial of His Creatorship: "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it." (Exodus 20:11) The fourth commandment only enjoins the hearers to remember the Sabbath, it is not establishing anything new.
Lisa, Did the commandment "thou shalt not kill" also apply only to the Jews? Face it, the only commandment you want to claim is strictly for the Jews is the Sabbath commandment. Oddly enough, that is the only commandment that the majority of Christian denominations want to say does not apply to them. I guess in a perverse sort of way, then, Jews are in agreement with the Sunday-keeping Christians.
It saddens me though, that the people who should care the most about the Sabbath--having championed it for thousands of years often at the cost of their lives--seem not to appreciate the real reason why the weekly Sabbath is a holy day, and for whom it was meant to be a means for blessing and sanctified fellowship with God.
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Fugu13, I saw posts that I remembered from almost a year ago on page one of this thread. Maybe something wierd happened in cyberspace, and this thread was cojoined with another, older thread. Only takes a few misplaced pointers. Nothing looks out of place now though. So I can't prove it.
OK, you folks who keep referring to "Noachide laws," will you please tell me what they are, and why you believe these should take the place of the Ten Commandments God wrote with His own finger on tables of stone at Mt. Sinai?
Here are the only commandments I find that God gave to Noah: "But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood." (Gen. 9:4) "Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed." (Gen. 9:6) "Be fruitful, and multiply." (Gen. 9:7).
There is nothing in here about theft, or blaspheming God's name, or worshiping idols, or committing adultery, or telling lies to defame people, or coveting what others have, etc. Are all these things OK for all the descendents of Noah who are not Jews?
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Ron, there is a fairly detailed discussion of what these laws entail located on the 5th page of this thread, between your first and second posts on that page.
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Fugu13, I saw posts that I remembered from almost a year ago on page one of this thread. Maybe something wierd happened in cyberspace, and this thread was cojoined with another, older thread. Only takes a few misplaced pointers. Nothing looks out of place now though. So I can't prove it.
I have never seriously considered the idea that "Ron Lambert" might be someone's alt until now.
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It just seems like such over-the-top silliness, with such deadpan delivery, you know? It doesn't actually clinch it for me, though; it just put it on the table as an actual possibility. When it's been suggested in the past I've dismissed the idea more or less out of hand.
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Lisa, I realize you claim the Bible (O.T.) and all its promises exclusively for Jews, but your tradition aside, the Bible does not support your proprietary claims. God's Covenant with Abraham was for the purpose that "In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed...." (Genesis 22:18a)
Right. We're that seed. You get your blessings through us.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: The Sabbath was created on the seventh day of Creation Week, when Adam alone was the entire human race.
Oh, stop it. There was no commandment to anyone at that time to observe any Sabbath in any way. It was solely the day that God rested.
Shabbat as something for people to observe didn't come about until after we left Egypt.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: There is no way you can claim that for yourself. The fourth commandment does not say the seventh day is the Sabbath because God was making it an exclusive covenant for the Jews, it says the seventh day is the Sabbath because God set aside the seventh day of Creation Week as a memorial of His Creatorship: "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it." (Exodus 20:11) The fourth commandment only enjoins the hearers to remember the Sabbath, it is not establishing anything new.
Wrong. In Exodus it says to remember the Sabbath. In Deuteronomy it says to keep it. Both are positive commandments, and God told us the details of those commandments.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Lisa, Did the commandment "thou shalt not kill" also apply only to the Jews?
First of all, there is no commandment "thou shalt not kill." It's "Do not murder". When King James and company were doing their translation, the English word "kill" meant what "murder" means today. The modern use of "kill" was expressed by the word "slay" back then. "Thou shalt not kill" was a correct translation at the time, but it's incorrect today, simply because English usage has changed.
Second of all, the prohibition against murder is one of the Noachide laws, and it stems, not from the commandments given at Sinai, but from Genesis 9:6, where it says, "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed." So yes, non-Jews are also commanded not to murder. And no, the commandment "Thou shalt not murder" was commanded only to Jews.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Face it, the only commandment you want to claim is strictly for the Jews is the Sabbath commandment.
Yes and no. That's the only one that non-Jews are forbidden to keep. None of the rest are commanded to non-Jews, but it's no big deal if you keep them.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: It saddens me though, that the people who should care the most about the Sabbath--having championed it for thousands of years often at the cost of their lives--seem not to appreciate the real reason why the weekly Sabbath is a holy day, and for whom it was meant to be a means for blessing and sanctified fellowship with God.
You aren't keeping God's Sabbath, Ron. You're worshipping your own opinions. God has told us what He wants, and you've chosen to ignore that.
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quote:Originally posted by Noemon: It just seems like such over-the-top silliness, with such deadpan delivery, you know? It doesn't actually clinch it for me, though; it just put it on the table as an actual possibility. When it's been suggested in the past I've dismissed the idea more or less out of hand.
Who is he, then? I don't recall seeing anyone else like him here.
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quote:Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese: Ron, there is a fairly detailed discussion of what these laws entail located on the 5th page of this thread, between your first and second posts on that page.
But that was all in 2008, and with Ron so confused about the year, maybe he can't find it.
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Fugu13, I saw posts that I remembered from almost a year ago on page one of this thread. Maybe something wierd happened in cyberspace, and this thread was cojoined with another, older thread. Only takes a few misplaced pointers. Nothing looks out of place now though. So I can't prove it.
You're odd. There's nothing from a year ago in this thread. There's material that's been rehashed because of people like you, who keep asking the same questions even after they've been answered.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: OK, you folks who keep referring to "Noachide laws," will you please tell me what they are, and why you believe these should take the place of the Ten Commandments God wrote with His own finger on tables of stone at Mt. Sinai?
They don't take the place of anything. They are the laws that God commanded all mankind. The commandments at Sinai were given to the Jews.
quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Here are the only commandments I find that God gave to Noah: "But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood." (Gen. 9:4) "Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed." (Gen. 9:6) "Be fruitful, and multiply." (Gen. 9:7).
There is nothing in here about theft, or blaspheming God's name, or worshiping idols, or committing adultery, or telling lies to defame people, or coveting what others have, etc. Are all these things OK for all the descendents of Noah who are not Jews?
See, Ron, the only way you can know what the Noachide laws are is to ask us. Jews. We're your source for knowledge of God.
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Did you think my addressing your comments to Lisa that you can ignore the page of discussion we had?
Stop quoting the Bible to us over and over when we already DID the Bible quoting thing. I showed you how the covenant was exclusive: "Beni u bein Bnei Yisroel" - "Between ME and the children of Israel"
There was no commandment in Genesis. Show it to me.
"Remember the Sabbath" - again the translation is stinky. Zachor is a perpetual remembering - it doesn't mean "remember something that happened" - it means "keep this on your mind always". It is a commandment with many applications, one of them is to make sure that the Sabbath day is planned for all throughout the week. Like Lisa said, it parallels "Shamor" - "Observe" or "Guard" which appears in the Deuteronomy version of the commandments.
And lastly - C'mon, the Bible supports our claims for an exclusive covenant more than tradition. Take a look at the story - God makes a covenant with JUST ONE NATION. He appears to JUST ONE NATION. He gives commandments, establishes the tabernacle, talks about how great the bond is with JUST ONE NATION. He slays a whole bunch of Egyptians, spurns Esau and Ismael, the other progeny of Abraham, etc.
Weren't you the one who was all big on verses in context? It's like you forgot the whole story.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: See, Ron, the only way you can know what the Noachide laws are is to ask us. Jews. We're your source for knowledge of God.
I used to think that only fundamentalist Christians could be this obnoxious about their beliefs. Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: See, Ron, the only way you can know what the Noachide laws are is to ask us. Jews. We're your source for knowledge of God.
I used to think that only fundamentalist Christians could be this obnoxious about their beliefs.
It was special for Ron.
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I actually like the no-nonsense approach of that line, and think it'd work well as a commercial tagline. You know how the LDS church did those "get closer to your family" spots back in the '80s? You could have a whole bunch of ads for Orthodox Jews:
"Jews: we talked to God so you don't have to." "Tired of wondering what God wants? Just ask a Jew." "Think you know your Bible? Think again."
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quote:Originally posted by Noemon: It just seems like such over-the-top silliness, with such deadpan delivery, you know? It doesn't actually clinch it for me, though; it just put it on the table as an actual possibility. When it's been suggested in the past I've dismissed the idea more or less out of hand.
Who is he, then?
That's the thing--I have a hard time believing that anyone would bother with something so pointless as maintaining an alt for seven years. And even if someone were to be enough of an asshat to want to do that, and have enough drive to maintain it for that long, I can't believe that they wouldn't have slipped up often enough in that period of time to have been caught. And yet...that post. That post cannot have been serious, can it?
quote:I don't recall seeing anyone else like him here.
Well, his brother was more or less identical to him, back when he was posting.
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