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Author Topic: Do body mods still hold the same stigma?
dabbler
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I don't know how much that removable ink caught on. It's contrary to the idea that most people have on inking - the permanence. Giving yourself an out isn't the intention of many people getting inked.
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Lyrhawn
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I think a great many people who either A. Don't get tattoos specifically because they're afraid about the permanence issue and B. Want a tattoo as something purely decorative rather than something specifically that lasts forever, will have no problem with it.

Besides, tattoos have never been permanent. You can remove them now, it's just expensive and painful. This just makes it cheaper, faster and more complete. And even if it IS the intention of many or most people getting tattoos, what about the people who don't specifically because of the permanence issue?

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Noemon
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quote:
Originally posted by dabbler:
I don't know how much that removable ink caught on. It's contrary to the idea that most people have on inking - the permanence.

If a tattoo is a (relatively) indelible thing, the vast majority of people who are willing to get one are going to be people who are specifically after the permanence of it.

I would guess that if there were a marketing push made to let the general public know that relatively painlessly, inexpensively removable tattoos were available, you'd see a lot of people who would previously have been turned off by the permanence start getting tattoos.

I've never seriously considered getting any tattoos, personally. When I was in my teens I was aware that what, say, 14 year old Jake considered important enough (or actually, funny enough) to have inked onto my body wouldn't necessarily be something that later iterations of myself would appreciate being saddled with.

Considering that what I toyed with at 14 was getting one of these on each butt cheek, I'm glad that I took my future self into consideration.

[ January 26, 2009, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: Noemon ]

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Corwin
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Those would have been legendary! [Wink]
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Vyrus
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quote:
Originally posted by Tante Shvester:

Be rebellious on your own dime, sweetie. Otherwise it hardly counts as rebellion, and where's the fun there?

He didn't not allow me to do it because of money-as I stated. Money, here, is hardly the issue. Eyebrows are relatively inexpensive-with maintenance and upkeep the price of an expensive video game.

I'd hoped to have made it clear that my parents are very accepting, that I'm relatively happy with my life, so I don't see why I would spite them with something rather petty, that generally wouldn't even really be upsetting anyway. And, while, like all teenagers, I have qualms with society, I hardly would ever do it to be rebellious in that sense. More in the sense of "it's my body, and you shouldn't judge me because of my looks, so I don't see why I should conform to your standards, and less "I'm going to make you suffer by sticking piercings in my face, and possibly jeopardizing your chance of hiring me. That'll show you!"

It sounds rather stupid to me.

Not a very logical argument, just saying. But I do understand that "Phuck Yew" idea is pretty standard with a large number of teenagers.

And I hardly think an eyebrow piercing can be compared to porn, no offense.

Sarcastimuppet-Many facial piercings do do wonky things, but,as I already stated, I think it's important to get it done by a respected professional in an up-scale shop with safe instruments, and to take proper care of it. As opposed to, say, shoving a safety pin in your brow. [I've had friends who have done it, never been a good idea.] While I can't completely eliminate the chance of infection, I can greatly reduce it, as one takes chances with all sorts of hazards in life both great and small.

I didn't expect to directly change people's perceptions immediately-such a thing can be quite challenging. I merely hoped to express to them an example of what people they traditionally thought as lesser could do, and try to show them that looks don't dictate anything about a person's personality. That's about as much as I can do, and make sure to never discriminate against people myself-yes, obviously, there are business practices merely good for business, but I largely don't believe in them, and I never expected to be in such a field anyway.

More like an author, who can be eccentric, as well as a commentator/journalist. I'm aware this is traditionally considered a rather professional scene, but considering it's for the field of professional wrestling I think I'll be fine.

In the meantime, I'll be sure to take it out for interviews and while at work-it's not like it's dermal.

Noemon XD I'm glad they don't give tattoos to fourteen-year-olds for this very reason.

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Mike
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Hi dabbler! [Wave]

-----

quote:
Originally posted by Noemon:
Considering that what I toyed with at 14 was getting one of these on each butt cheek, I'm glad that I took my future self into consideration.

I lol'd, srsly.

-----

Regarding the original topic, I think it depends a lot on where you live. I've been living in San Francisco for the last three and a half years, and body mods have gotten much more normal to my eyes. The girl I'm dating has a couple of visible tattoos, which would've been a big deal before I moved here, but now isn't at all. I used to work for a startup (I'm, uh, between assignments now) and there was little if any correlation between how professional my coworkers looked and whether they had visible tattoos or gauged ears. In other words, in an environment where body mods are fairly common, the appearance of professionalism and respectability depend primarily on other cues (good grooming, good posture, assertiveness, etc.). Of course, if you're in a more conservative place or profession, it can still be very limiting.

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Shanna
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Reading this thread makes me think that some people just need to get out more.

Its just some metal and ink. In a way, it just scars. Lots of people have scars or differences in their appearance and we don't discriminate against them. But because its a choice, its perfectly acceptable to declare it negative or gross or unappealing.

I just don't understand. I used to feel cautious around piercings or tattoos. Then I made the effort to talk to some people with body mods. I love my part-time job because we're allowed to have weird hair color, forearm tattoos, facial piercings, or dress as we like as long as we wear closed-toe shoes and cover all the important bits. Its nice to work in an environment, especially such a big chain, where we're judged on the service we provide not our appearance. And its nice that our diverse appearances make it a comfortable environment for all people and perhaps challenges those who judge people negatively for piercings and tattoos.

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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Shanna:
But because its a choice, its perfectly acceptable to declare it negative or gross or unappealing.

Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

No one is going to say, "You know, you should have avoided getting sliced with that knife. What an ugly scar!" or, "Why would you go and get burned like that? Colloid scars are so unattractive!" But when it's a choice, why shouldn't people consider it unappealing? Especially if someone asked for feedback.

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Shanna
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And some people choose to get bad dye jobs, wear excessive facial hair, become overweight for reasons excluding medical, etc.

Personally, I don't have a problem with people finding certain chosen physical trait unattractive. But you don't find too many people who can control the negative thought in their head and it often spills over into discriminatory behavior. People can be as close-minded as as judgmental as they want, but I don't understand why this mindset and discrimination is acceptable. There are few things in this world that AREN'T under our control and it seems like a waste of time ranking which modifications are bigger offenses.

Why can't people just get over it? Everyone's got something about them that make them unattractive in someone's eye.

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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Shanna:
There are few things in this world that AREN'T under our control

If you think most things in your life are under your control, there is little I can do to shatter that illusion.

No one deliberately gets a bad dye job or becomes overweight. Excessive facial hair is a matter of taste, but (outside of academia [Wink] ) I would expect it to limit job opportunities as well.

Permanent bodily mutilation will as well.

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quidscribis
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quote:
Originally posted by Shanna:
Lots of people have scars or differences in their appearance and we don't discriminate against them.

Sure we do. Pretty people/tall people/thin people get better, higher paying jobs than ugly, short, or fat people. Happens all the time.
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Rappin' Ronnie Reagan
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quote:
Originally posted by sarcasticmuppet:
quote:
Originally posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan:
This really reminds me of the modesty discussion.

If all you can think about when talking to someone with a piercing is the piercing, then maybe you should work on changing that.

When "someone" is a person with a facial piercing, and "you" is someone interviewing for a job "someone" wants, I don't think they "have" to do anything. When you're conducting interviews and several, possibly even dozens of applicants are vying for the same job, a bad first impression can kill your chances. In non-work related public situations, human beings tend to be polite and not stare or try think that it's a big deal, but those situations don't seem to be what very many in this thread is referring to. Vyrus's father specifically referred to missed opportunities (academic, employment, etc) that would come with a facial piercing. Wrong or right, whoever has the power to open doors or give out opportunities has the power to dictate what they want in a candidate. If what they want is someone without stigmatized body mods, that's their prerogative. If it's wrong, then YOU build a successful business/university where you hire/admit whoever you want, but saying that *they* should just change their biases is silly and a little bit naive.

I remember hearing when I was about 17 that someone got an eyebrow piercing and ended up with a permanent facial twitch. Probably an urban legend, but I can't help thinking about it whenever someone talks about it.

I think it's funny that you're responding to something I didn't actually say. Obviously going to job interviews with a facial piercing is a bad idea because you don't know what prejudices or biases or appearance requirements the interviewer is going to have. I do think that people should work to change their biases against body piercings, though. And I don't mean thinking their unattractive. I mean assuming negative personality traits based on the fact that a person has a nose or eyebrow piercing.

I think that because of the demographics on Hatrack, people here are more inclined to feel negatively about piercings than the general population in at the places I've been. Nose piercings are practically mainstream now, and earlier today I was waited on by a girl at Papa John's with two lip piercings.

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scifibum
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"Nose piercings are practically mainstream now, and earlier today I was waited on by a girl at Papa John's with two lip piercings."

Let us know when she's servicing investment accounts. [Smile]

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Dan_Frank
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For what it's worth, Vyrus, I've known plenty of people in a wide variety of jobs... academic, corporate, science (practical, as opposed to academic), financial... with an equally wide variety of tattoos and piercings. It does limit options occasionally, but it's not in any way the stigma it once was. I've still met people who say long hair limits job options, but I've had long hair since I was a kid and it's never hindered me in the slightest.

It's a big world, filled with a whole lot of people, each with their own personal view, but you'll generally only hear from people who disapprove. Don't let it bother you. Get the piercing you want when you turn 18, take it out when the situation calls for it, and be happy. [Smile]

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Lanfear
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"More in the sense of "it's my body, and you shouldn't judge me because of my looks, so I don't see why I should conform to your standards,"

It sounds to me like your already assuming the worst of people, and deciding to go against the "standards" in some kind of rebellion.

Oh goodness, I'm only nineteen and I feel like your trying to dress up your teenage rebellion with big words and philosophies, when in reality all it is is that you want to be different.

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Lyrhawn
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Looks like you're assuming more than she is.
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Shanna
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quote:
If you think most things in your life are under your control, there is little I can do to shatter that illusion.
I used to have this terrible fixation on doing what I was supposed to. Every other verb out of my mouth was "should" or "must" or "have to." I have a couple of close people who know how to wrangle me in with a game of "what if."

Me: I HAVE to go to work.
Them: What if you didn't?
Me: I would lose my job?
Them: What if you did?
Me: I wouldn't be able to pay my bills?
Them: What if you didn't?
Me: I'd have to live in a cardboard box and eat garbage.

And so on and so forth. The point was that you could probably survive but maybe not to the standard that you want. Everything is a choice. I choose not to live in a cardboard box. I can choose whether or not I hate my job. Etc.

People have so many choices, opportunities, and control over their lives. Most people I see have some form of body modification be it dyed hair or suntans.

quote:
No one deliberately gets a bad dye job or becomes overweight. Excessive facial hair is a matter of taste, but (outside of academia [Wink] ) I would expect it to limit job opportunities as well.
Lots of people think their hair looks great but I know I'm not a fan of artificial highlights. Should I just assume that what I think is a poor hair style choice means that they aren't responsible, hard-working people? I spent most of last week listening to several coworkers who have health conditions that require that they lose weight and yet they flat out said they don't want to diet and exercise. Its their choice. Should I judge them as have poor priorities? If someone knew this about them and chose not to hire them, they'd be missing out on some incredible workers.

quote:
Permanent bodily mutilation will as well.
Not if they don't show off their mods. Personally, it seems like a waste to get a major piercing that constantly has to be removed but the point is they are removable and can still be enjoyed on weekends. With the exception of face tattoos, all others can be hid with clothing.
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Jhai
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quote:
Originally posted by Dan_Frank:
For what it's worth, Vyrus, I've known plenty of people in a wide variety of jobs... academic, corporate, science (practical, as opposed to academic), financial... with an equally wide variety of tattoos and piercings. It does limit options occasionally, but it's not in any way the stigma it once was...

It's a big world, filled with a whole lot of people, each with their own personal view, but you'll generally only hear from people who disapprove. Don't let it bother you. Get the piercing you want when you turn 18, take it out when the situation calls for it, and be happy. [Smile]

QFT.

You'd be fine in most jobs in NorCal - any startup worth working for wouldn't blink twice. Really, any startup anywhere worth working for wouldn't care much. I'm rather surprised at the hostility expressed here, since you wouldn't be blinked at in the metro areas I've lived in on either coast. Really, the only jobs (in the areas where I've lived) where having a discrete eyebrow piercings would hurt you are the ones where you have to wear a suit or serve stuffy customers. I see it as a very "normal" mod - it's pretty common. No more odd than a streak of pink or purple hair.

And I'd be surprised if most of the people hear expressing disapproval would even notice the holes if you removed the piercing, unless your eyebrows are rather sparse. It's a good choice for a discrete piercing. And it can be quite attractive on the right face (totally not mine though).

Personal history (for biases): I work as an analyst at a mid-sized consulting firm with a bunch of engineers & economists in metro DC. My husband works in product management at a large tech firm. We both have coworkers with visible tattoos or piercings. At the startup he last worked for there was a developer with many facial piercings - and he was valued as one of their best programmers.

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Lanfear
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I have no problem with her getting any body piercings and wouldn't think twice about it. I have a problem with the motivation she has chosen to identify as her reasoning for doing it.
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Shanna:
People have so many choices, opportunities, and control over their lives.

Yup.

Until they are: laid off; hit by a careless driver; caught in a hurricane, tornado, earthquake, wildfire, flood, or other "act of God"; affected by the depressed stock market; killed by salmonella-laden peanut butter . . .

quote:
I spent most of last week listening to several coworkers who have health conditions that require that they lose weight and yet they flat out said they don't want to diet and exercise. Its their choice. Should I judge them as have poor priorities?
I think you just made it pretty clear that is exactly what you're doing.
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Shanna
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Or not. I was just reporting the conversation and offering one interpretation. But I know these women and I know about their lives and their devotion to their families (most of whom are single bread-winners for disabled or laid-off husbands.) Maybe they should exercise because that's what their doctors told them. I care about them and wish they could have perfect lives where diet and exercise would be easy and they could live long, healthy lives. But that just doesn't happen. I'm sure many of them look at me and wish I didn't have tattoos but they don't know my story and the comfort that my tattoos give me in moments of crisis.

I don't assume lazy because they're overweight. And I wouldn't want someone to look at my tattoos and think slacker or rebel.

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Jhai
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Shanna, for what it's worth, I agree with everything you've said in this thread. Especially the things about choices. Yes, you can't always control what life throws at you - although I'm with Seneca & Jefferson on luck - but you can control how you react to what you get, and that's what ends up mattering in the end.
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Samprimary
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Nose studs can be pretty great. Small eyebrow piercings are okay. Lip rings are meh and get in the way. Light amounts of body mods that work with your facial structure are fine. Intense body mods (e.g. anything close to idolizing the bme pain olympics) are as far as I'm concerned a sign of one being crazy.

I live in a place where people could honestly care less if you have some tasteful piercings in your face. I also tend to think they can be shway and I've gone on several dates with girls that had face piercings I liked. My own advice (purely on aesthetic matters) is to keep them small and avoid rings in favor of studs and stuff.

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AvidReader
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Meanwhile, I have a friend who does computer security for the state whose boss aproved his request for an eyebrow piercing (they're not specifically covered by state dress code) because it would make him less able to get a job elsewhere.

It comes back to choices. If getting the eyebrow ring is worth more to you than having the option of interviewing somewhere that doesn't allow them during the initial healing phase when you can't take it out, then get one for your birthday. Just don't assume that the only place you could ever be happy working is somewhere that lets you have piercings. Keep your options open.

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Vyrus
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quote:
originally posted by rivka:

No one deliberately gets a bad dye job or becomes overweight.

Bad dye job, I agree with-but people can choose to get haircuts with colors/styles that one normally would equate with "normalcy".

Yes, there are people with thyroid problems. There are people with other genetic disorders and ones that are biologically inclined to be larger.

However, being fat is just as much a choice as any other-now, don't get me wrong, I doubt people set out and think "How much weight can I gain today?" But if they lead a lifestyle that fosters this, like never working out ad burying their feelings into a box of chocolates, they're living just as much as a choice as anyone who ever watched their weight, or put on make up, or got a tattoo, or put on a pair of clothes.

Still don't think they should be discriminated against by any means, but body image, to a certain extent is a personal choice.


quote:
Originally posted by Dan_Frank:
For what it's worth, Vyrus, I've known plenty of people in a wide variety of jobs... academic, corporate, science (practical, as opposed to academic), financial... with an equally wide variety of tattoos and piercings. It does limit options occasionally, but it's not in any way the stigma it once was. I've still met people who say long hair limits job options, but I've had long hair since I was a kid and it's never hindered me in the slightest.

It's a big world, filled with a whole lot of people, each with their own personal view, but you'll generally only hear from people who disapprove. Don't let it bother you. Get the piercing you want when you turn 18, take it out when the situation calls for it, and be happy. [Smile]

[Hat]

I've been wanting to use that smiley for a very long time.

quote:
Originally posted by Lanfear:
"More in the sense of "it's my body, and you shouldn't judge me because of my looks, so I don't see why I should conform to your standards,"

It sounds to me like your already assuming the worst of people, and deciding to go against the "standards" in some kind of rebellion.

Oh goodness, I'm only nineteen and I feel like your trying to dress up your teenage rebellion with big words and philosophies, when in reality all it is is that you want to be different.

I'm not trying to dress up anything-I'm just trying to put a reason behind my actions so as to make more sense than the average "rebellious teenager."

And, so we're on the same page, how do you define rebellion?

And I didn't want to be *different*, I wanted to be *me*.

And I'm unique in my own way, just like everyone here is different from everybody else.

And your "different" comment contradicts your "just like every other punkgoth kid" comment.

quote:
originally posted by Lanfear

"I have no problem with her getting any body piercings and wouldn't think twice about it. I have a problem with the motivation she has chosen to identify as her reasoning for doing it. "


Does it matter my reasoning, if it's my choice? Besides this, many of your points I find flawed and inaccurate, based largely on assumptions.


As for others:

Eyebrows take a relatively short time to heal, and if I did get a job it wouldn't be during time of recuperation.

And there's still the matter of my father [Big Grin]

But I'll not do anything stupid behind his back.

And there's no saying he won't change his mind-I used to be not allowed to stay up past eleven-when I'm a senior next year, or over summer, whose to say he won't lighten up? It's not like it's something I'm dying over.

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Noemon
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quote:
Originally posted by Vyrus:
Noemon XD I'm glad they don't give tattoos to fourteen-year-olds for this very reason.

:: nods :: It's a wise move on society's part, that's for sure.

Add my voice, by the way, to those who don't think that an eyebrow piercing is likely to particularly slow you down later in life. I have no idea what you're planning to do with your life, much less what you'll actually end up doing (this from the guy with a Classics BA and an MA in Teaching ESL who has been doing computery stuff for the past decade--no slight intended), but even now a single eyebrow, nose, lip, or tongue piercing is unlikely to be an insurmountable hurdle in IT, engineering, or the arts (picked because I know people with said piercings in those fields) in SW Ohio, the area I've been living in for the past six years. As time wears on the sort of body mod you're contemplating will only become more mainstream; by the time you're out of college and diving into the job market what stigma there still is will be dramatically less severe than it is even now.

I'm curious now (and forgive me if you included it in an earlier post and I missed it; I'm reading on the job, so I occasionally get distracted by, you know, work, and pay posts less attention than they deserve)--what are you planning to do once you get out of school?


quote:
Originally posted by Mike:
quote:
Originally posted by Noemon:
Considering that what I toyed with at 14 was getting one of these on each butt cheek, I'm glad that I took my future self into consideration.

I lol'd, srsly.
[Smile] Looking back at who I've been over the years, I think that the only element of my personality that's been more of a constant than my love of SF has been my dedication to The Funny. I have no doubt that there are more than a few alternate universes in which other-me is running around with his ass emblazoned with twin Yosemite Sams.
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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
by the time you're out of college and diving into the job market what stigma there still is will be dramatically less severe than it is even now.

Assuming of course, that society continues to shift in approximately the same direction and speed that it's shifting now.
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Noemon
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Sure. But I think that that's a fairly safe assumption.
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mr_porteiro_head
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Safe as houses. [Wink]

Even if something has a low chance of happening (like real estate losing value, for instance), if it could seriously affect your future, it's worth considering.

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Liz B
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OK, (most) everyone:

DISCREET: unobtrusive, modest

As in, for example, a discreet piercing.

DISCRETE: detached

As in discrete math.

Thank you for your attention to this matter.

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Noemon
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
Safe as houses. [Wink]

Even if something has a low chance of happening (like real estate losing value, for instance), if it could seriously affect your future, it's worth considering.

It's always a good thing to consider the possibilities, and if she were contemplating getting her tongue bisected, or having the sclerea of her eyes tattooed, I probably wouldn't give the same advice*. What she's interested in doing, though, is something that is relatively unnoticable if the jewelry isn't in place, and which will heal if the jewelry is left out for an extended period of time. Depending on where on her eyebrow she were to get the thing, it's possible that the only sign that it was ever there would be a slight irregularity in the pattern of her eyebrow hairs.


*Note that my advice here isn't "run out and get that piercing". She respects her dad's wishes in this, and I think that that's a good thing. When she's no longer a minor, though, and has the freedom to make this choice for herself, I don't think that she'll be doing damage to her future selves by getting this piercing.


[Edited to add the asterisked bit]

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scholarette
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Depending on career choice, I think it could matter. I know my sister's career would have been hurt by that choice, not sure about mine (since I am still a grad student). To be fair, my sister has been in very professional jobs for a while. She once got clothing bonus. I don't think they even have casual Fridays were she is now.
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mr_porteiro_head
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Sure, Noemon. Also note that I wasn't saying she shouldn't get it or that it would ruin her life.

I guess my post was somewhat of a knee-jerk reaction to the implied "If present trends continue..." of your post.

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Noemon
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[Smile] I figured as much. It's just that blathering on is my kneejerk response.
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mr_porteiro_head
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[Big Grin]
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Noemon:
It's just that blathering on is my kneejerk response.

Shvester!
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mr_porteiro_head
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O_o
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Traceria
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Eyebrow piercings won't be a problem for you, because you can take them out for job interviews. (Note: wearing them to a job interview would be a mistake.) What you don't want to do is something that you can't remove.

I was going to say something similar. In future years (and depending on your future profession) you're going to want to present a certain image. If you're planning to work in the corporate scene,for example, you won't want to have something so obvious as a pierced brow, and taking it out every day for business functions could just get annoying. At least, it'd annoy me.

I'm 28 now, but about ten years ago I was a college freshman and made it a point to go out on my 18th birthday (I was still 17 for the first two months of college) to get my cartilage pierced. My parents had refused to let me. It was half an act of rebellion and half because I'd always wanted it. Well, while I do have two piercings up there still and work as a paralegal in a fairly large law firm, I try to keep them as nonobstrusive as possible. I still want to be my own person/have my own style, but I also have to consider a professional appearance.

I can understand your desire to express yourself, and I hate to say it, but one of the things that is popular now IS the look you've described, or at least something akin to it. 'In my day' (bit of self-mocking there) the ratio of teens and those in the low 20's dressed in an edgy fashion to those sporting Gap, Abercrombie, Old Navy, etc., etc., etc. was far from balanced, and I notice a significantly greater number of teens now dressing edgy (my word choice). That said, what you wear does say something about the person you are. Perhaps instead of wearing a pencil skirt every day to work, my choice to wear a wrap skirt will give off a different (yet still professional) vibe. I've had conversations about this with coworkers who do wear a button-down shirt and slacks every day, and while we'll both agree the other looks nice and perfectly acceptable, we also accept that we wouldn't necessarily 'fit' the clothing choice of the other person. It's funny.

Anyhow, all that is to say that you've got a lot to consider, piercings or clothing or whatever. You send out signals with those things whether you like it or not. One day, you might find that your current attire doesn't work for your profession. That happened to me. I had to retire a lot of thrift store t-shirts and sweaters and such because they just wouldn't do for where life had dropped me. (I also ran out of drawer space when the new clothes moved in.) If you ever find that is the case, don't let yourself think you have to give up your individuality. Instead, let your image evolve and mature. You don't need piercings or tatoos necessarily to stay true to yourself.

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Noemon
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Just for the record, were I the type to dobie, which I most decidedly am not, I would long since have created a thread entitled "Do body molds still hold the same stigma", which would contain a link to some site talking about candida.
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rivka
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ewwwwwwww!
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Noemon
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Yeah, dobies really are repulsive. We're all lucky I'm not the type to create them.
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rivka
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[Razz]
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