quote:it sounds one step removed from the Hitler Youth (Godwin be damned). Who is going to enforce the volunteering and what is going to be acceptable volunteer work?
I don't know how it will be enforced, but "acceptable volunteer work" is covered in the text of the bill Lisa linked to.
From what I can tell, service with a non-profit (like a church) will work just fine.
quote:It's the "making them" that's the problem. No government has the right to draft innocent people.
I disagree. I mean, I see what you're getting at, and there's a certain attractiveness to your point of view. No one wants to be a shill to the Man.
But we are members of communities, and communities do have a claim (in my opinion) on individuals' wealth. Wealth being defined as resources. The community provides quite a bit of support to children-- public schooling, safety, etc; it's fair for the community to expect an investment from the child when the child has reached the appropriate age to participate.
So I don't have any problems with this at all, assuming that no discrimination is involved in choosing which organizations can take volunteers.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:Can folks PLEASE stop saying things like Obama is a fascist or like Hitler? It's really getting annoying and it's sort of an insult to people who actually LIVED through real hard core fascism.
To be fair, Syne, I can distinctly recall your comparing Bush to Hitler.
Of course, the problem isn't really that Bush or Obama are like Hitler; the problem is that the federal government has its fingers in so many pies that its merest twitch nowadays turns over someone's beloved apple-cart.
I don't recall comparing Bush to Hitler...
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Compared to that, some hours of community service doesn't seem like that big of a deal.
Except that this sort of thing should really be part of a much larger national discussion, not foisted onto people. And especially not after the original proposal was scuttled after people complained about it the first time around. I'm open to hearing Obama's case for mandatory public service; what I can't stand, though, is never getting to hear that case, and instead having to watch him try to achieve that goal in some ridiculously backhanded fashion.
It's the same thing that bugged me about our "War on Terror." If Bush had tried to sell me on the necessity of an open-ended war, I'd've been more receptive to it than to his real approach: sell a short, easy, focused war full of lies, and try to turn it into the open-ended war he thought we needed.
I'd like more credit from our chief executives.
Agreed on all counts.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
Wow, and here I thought this could be a reasonable conversation about the merits/drawbacks of federally-sponsored volunteer programs. Instead, I find a thread full of people who are so afraid that their pet political opinions are not currently popular that they would talk about taking up arms against their own government! Dislike Obama's policies all you want, but understand that when you throw around words like Messiah and Hitler, you only prove that you have no understanding of the current American political climate, the historical German political climate, nor what constitutes dangerous.
Let's get real here. Bush walked all over our civil liberties for 8 years and we survived. There were moments when I wondered if we were taking the first steps (the FIRST STEPS) towards a fascist dictatorship. I worried that people were willing to exchange too much of their own personal freedom for some temporary (and probably false) sense of security. I worried about the great gulf forming between Republicans leaders who had abandoned the financial principles of the party and the Republican party members, who still seemed to buy the party lies of fiscal responsibility and individual liberties.
To my great relief, I saw that the American people were not entirely stupid and that indeed, we can still oust incompetent and corrupt leaders.
Now, my only fear is that the Republican party won't get it's head out of it's *** and figure out that they have become a party of hypocrites and liars. Among the regular members of the party, there seem to be two separate bases: the moral conservatives who want to tell us all how to live and the fiscal conservatives who should give up and become Libertarians.
At the moment, the party is torn and broken which gives the Democrats too much power. The Democrats are not even a party with a strong platform. It's more a general non-Republican stance that bridges many levels of moderate to extreme positions.
When the Democrats piss us off badly enough, they'll go too. My biggest fear is that this will happen BEFORE the Republicans are ready to come back to power.
But what I do not fear is that our democracy is ready to fall apart. If it didn't happen under Bush, it sure as heck isn't going to happen over Obama, who is a reasonable man who yes, is putting forth some (uncomfortably) new ideas.
Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
OK. I totally looked up some of my past posts and I do not think I compared Bush to Hitler and at least half of the posts were about the Fog by Kate Bush which is one of the best songs ever.
Comparing him to Hitler is a bit harsh. I totally do not agree on the so-called war on terror but you've got to wonder if the guy meant well, but there's the best intentions and all.
I do not think volunteering is a bad thing and is quite the same as the Hitler youth group. 100 hours in college doesn't seem like much to me. More of my fellow college students spent about 500 times that partying and having a way better tolerance for booze than I ever could.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote: Instead, I find a thread full of people who are so afraid that their pet political opinions are not currently popular that they would talk about taking up arms against their own government!
Well...really only two people. At most. I'm not sure Lisa has said anything like that (but it could possibly be construed); and Occasional didn't explicitly say he'd "take up arms against the government."
He ranted against Obama, and then said he was thinking of buying a gun.
Let's try to stay sans-hyperbole.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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However, you did compare the Boy Scouts to Hitler's Youth (because of their uniforms and outdoor activities).
Just for perspective...
hehehe she said ***
But they do sort of look Hitler Youthy. Maybe it's the shorts. However, boy scout manuals are super useful. Especially if civilization should collapse and you need to survive in the woods or figure out what to do about shock. But, community service could be very useful. Especially with people needing help in a bad economy. Perhaps not making it mandatory is a better idea, but I don't think it's like what that Jay Severin guy said, but that guy is such a @#$!%@#! You can't insult people you don't agree with and expect them to say, "I see the error of my ways and will join your side." No ways.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Occasional, before you resort to armed rebellion, I suggest marches and sit-ins. I can lend you my, "What To Do When Your Government Is Being Run By Scary People" handbook. I don't expect to need it for the next few years.
ETA: Though I may need to stack up on some "America - Love It or Leave It" signs. Know where I can get any?
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Isn't this the way the "Hitler Youth" began? Sounded idealistic to begin with.
I have compared Obama to Hitler, and I still believe the parallels I have drawn are valid. But the troubles and open racial warfare that I predict will not come so much from Obama as from his zealot, hardcore worshippers, who will become wildly enraged at anyone who criticizes their messianic hero--especially when so many things about his administration go frustratingly wrong, and they want to find a scapegoat.
Posts: 3742 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
And for the record, I'm with Scott on the volunteer program. I think it's a wonderful idea and I do not think that 1 hour a week for junior high/high school students and 2 hours a week for college students is too much to ask. How to entice this service would be a good national discussion, but simply requiring it -- why not?
Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Occasional, before you resort to armed rebellion, I suggest marches and sit-ins. I can lend you my, "What To Do When Your Government Is Being Run By Scary People" handbook. I don't expect to need it for the next few years.
Keep it in hand. Entertain no delusions-- the Democrats, now that they have power, are as likely to abuse their power as the Republicans.
This backhanded attempt at legislating volunteerism is one example of that. The only solution is an informed and vocal public.
Constant vigilance! Make sure it's really Dumbledore.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
I think there are reasonable arguments to be made about whether community service requirements for high school students should be implemented on a federal level, but complaining that community service requirements place an unreasonable burden on high school students without discussing the substantial portions of schools that have already implemented community service requirements at a local level seems a bit odd. The notion of required community service is far from new--and there's been plenty of research done into its prevalence and effects. This (requires subscription), this, and this (pdf) all look like interesting places to start.
Posts: 650 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Perhaps not making it mandatory is a better idea, but I don't think it's like what that Jay Severin guy said, but that guy is such a @#$!%@#! You can't insult people you don't agree with and expect them to say, "I see the error of my ways and will join your side." No ways.
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: But they do sort of look Hitler Youthy. Maybe it's the shorts.
More accurately the Hitler Youth looked scouty. The boy scouts predated the Nazis. Not to mention the Nazis banned scouting everywhere they went and in at least one country former scouts were active participants in the resistance fighting the Germans.
Posts: 212 | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Perhaps not making it mandatory is a better idea, but I don't think it's like what that Jay Severin guy said, but that guy is such a @#$!%@#! You can't insult people you don't agree with and expect them to say, "I see the error of my ways and will join your side." No ways.
Um...what?
Jay Severin is some dood on the radio who says things like "These people are fat, stupid and lazy" or he compares Obama's volunteer stuff to some sort of citizen's army or something. It is not nice of me to call him a #@$@%@#% But he's really irritating and rude. It's kind of ironic, but at least I'm not doing that on the radio and grawlixes are funny.
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: But they do sort of look Hitler Youthy. Maybe it's the shorts.
More accurately the Hitler Youth looked scouty. The boy scouts predated the Nazis. Not to mention the Nazis banned scouting everywhere they went and in at least one country former scouts were active participants in the resistance fighting the Germans.
I did not know this...
quote:Originally posted by orlox:
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: Fog by Kate Bush which is one of the best songs ever.
quote: I support mandatory volunteering for young people.
Actually... yeah.. Let's do the mandatory volunteer work!
But only at government approved locations. Due to separation of church and state, all the time you give to your church doesn't count.
But I'm sure the ACLU and Planned Parenthood could use some unpaid children to help with their mission. And heck! Someone's gotta help make all the floats for gay pride parades.
Be very wary when you give power to the government. Even when they do something you like, they'll do it in a stupid way.
My hubby and I have been talking about it too... (He balked when I told him he'd have to go to gun training before I'd let him buy one. I was raised by rednecks so I know how to handle a gun...)
We're not interested in it for armed rebellion... We want a gun to defend our stash of canned food.
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote: I support mandatory volunteering for young people.
Actually... yeah.. Let's do the mandatory volunteer work!
But only at government approved locations. Due to separation of church and state, all the time you give to your church doesn't count.
But I'm sure the ACLU and Planned Parenthood could use some unpaid children to help with their mission. And heck! Someone's gotta help make all the floats for gay pride parades.
Be very wary when you give power to the government. Even when they do something you like, they'll do it in a stupid way.
"Mandatory Volunteer?" Jeezus Zombie Kraist.
I disagree that this is giving power to the government. I think this is a way to reclaim power for ourselves. We've gotten lazy, expecting the government to do everything for us. When we think of charities, we think only of giving them money, not of giving them our time and attention.
When we get actively involved in community programs we associate with people. This gives us an opportunity to talk to other human beings about what is going on in both local and national politics and to share information and support on what our communities need. This gives us the opportunity to see firsthand what is going on rather than watching it on the news and hearing a single person's slanted view of what is going on.
Getting actively involved in our community gives us the opportunity to learn what our community actually needs and to become a force for change.
Volunteering negates some of the need for tax dollars to be spent on certain projects.
And there is absolutely no reason in the world to suspect that anyone would disallow church volunteerism. That would be insane on a lot of levels, including popularity, and Obama's web site change does indicate that he wants people to be ok with this idea.
Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: Oh, on the gun thing...
My hubby and I have been talking about it too... (He balked when I told him he'd have to go to gun training before I'd let him buy one. I was raised by rednecks so I know how to handle a gun...)
We're not interested in it for armed rebellion... We want a gun to defend our stash of canned food.
I know of someone in Florida that would get along famously with you! (said without a bit of sarcasm or mocking or anything negative like that)
Posts: 691 | Registered: Nov 2008
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posted
Don't local gov'ts already keep lists of approved volunteer organizations that are used for probation community service? I don't understand the complaints about the possible inappropriate places volunteers might have to work/not be able to work. Are the currently used organizations so bad?
edited for clarity
Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote: I support mandatory volunteering for young people.
Actually... yeah.. Let's do the mandatory volunteer work!
But only at government approved locations. Due to separation of church and state, all the time you give to your church doesn't count.
IIRC when I was doing volunteer work in preparation for graduating high school, I began to describe to the counselor something I had done for my church. She put up a hand and conspiratorially said "I don't want to hear the words church, Dad, Mom, or Grandpa in your description. Keep it to the community center, some guy, some lady and the elderly. Your 17, no one's expecting you to be descriptive."
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: Fog by Kate Bush which is one of the best songs ever.
I'm not sure if I've ever heard Fog, but I simply adore her songs Wuthering Heights and How to be Invisible.
Posts: 382 | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: Fog by Kate Bush which is one of the best songs ever.
I'm not sure if I've ever heard Fog, but I simply adore her songs Wuthering Heights and How to be Invisible.
You must HEAR the Fog, it's fantastic. It has THIS VIOLIN PART THAT IS BEAUTIFUL! The ARRANGEMENT OF IT!
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:But the troubles and open racial warfare that I predict will not come so much from Obama as from his zealot, hardcore worshippers, who will become wildly enraged at anyone who criticizes their messianic hero...
What's weird about this is that most of the hardcore Obama fans I know are along the lines of Kate Boots. The idea of them becoming wildly enraged by criticism -- to the point of violence -- is something I have trouble envisioning. I mean, if you got Kate angry, she might knit you something with a curse word in it. And then apologize.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote: When we think of charities, we think only of giving them money, not of giving them our time and attention.
Speak for yourself. My wife and I would prefer to spend our money on ourselves or our relatives and spend our time on others.
Posts: 1099 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Psst...don't tell anyone (for fear of retaliation by the cabal) but we don't all agree with everything President Obama does.
Not agreeing with everything the President does is a huge, enormous, exhilarating improvement. I, personally, like the whole not invading other countries (and killing lots of people) for no reason thing. I am not crazy about mandatory volunteering, but it is a lovely change from locking people up without trials and torturing them.
(Tom, you forgot about my nibbling sarcasm and inability to conceal the fact that I think something is stupid.)
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Not agreeing with everything the President does is a huge, enormous, exhilarating improvement. I, personally, like the whole not invading other countries (and killing lots of people) for no reason thing. I am not crazy about mandatory volunteering, but it is a lovely change from locking people up without trials and torturing them.
Hmm.
How do you feel about a president and a Congress who may be making decidedly unconstitutional laws in order to appease a constituency crying out for JUSTICE, JUSTICE, JUSTICE!
'Cause that's what's happening with the laws taxing AIG's bonuses.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
I'm discomfited by the AIG thing for a variety of reasons, but I don't think the laws they've proposed are necessarily unconstitutional. They're powerfully wrong-headed, though, and an example of the most aimless sort of pandering.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Christine: When I went to give away my old car I started vetting charities to see, not which ones of them deserved it, but who wouldn't use my money in a way that was morally repugnant to me.
Eventually, I gave up and just gave it to the Salivation Army (who are also morally compromised.)
Seems most charities have hidden agendas and/or political wings I don't want to support. So why force people to support them?
I thought you claimed to be a libertarian?
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Occasional: Because civility is quickly ending and freedom is soon to be history. Better to protect yourself against "The mob" than be left defenseless. Ever read "1984?" That is where we have arrived.
.. I read the fantastical way in which you thought America would very seriously break up. I'm very glad that Obama gives you a focal point towards which to focus your in-general being terrified of the illusions of modern society.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Seriously though occasional you are the near-parody of a person who wants desperately to sit on a cloistered commune for the rest of their life and be constantly terrified with how the rest of the nation and/or world is going to hell.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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The problem with your argument is that you probably will also say, but no one should go to private schools or homeschooling. A lot of laws in states make following your idea very hard. In fact, some laws basically state that private and homeschooling should be JUST LIKE public schools if they want to exist.
quote:Originally posted by orlox: I have everything she ever did, just not on the playlist.
#58 Heads We're Dancing is about Hitler BTW.
*knows* You've got to listen to the fog this second! I am listening to your playlist because I do not have all of these songs back on my HD since I reformatted. Most of them are on discs.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: Christine: When I went to give away my old car I started vetting charities to see, not which ones of them deserved it, but who wouldn't use my money in a way that was morally repugnant to me.
Eventually, I gave up and just gave it to the Salivation Army (who are also morally compromised.)
Seems most charities have hidden agendas and/or political wings I don't want to support. So why force people to support them?
I thought you claimed to be a libertarian?
I tried to be libertarian a few years ago but it didn't sit well with me. At first I thought it sounded nice in principal but would never work in the real world, and then I decided it didn't even sound nice in principal.
I remain open minded, though.
Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Scott R: How do you feel about a president and a Congress who may be making decidedly unconstitutional laws in order to appease a constituency crying out for JUSTICE, JUSTICE, JUSTICE!
'Cause that's what's happening with the laws taxing AIG's bonuses.
What do you think is unconstitutional about that law?
Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: Seriously though occasional you are the near-parody of a person who wants desperately to sit on a cloistered commune for the rest of their life and be constantly terrified with how the rest of the nation and/or world is going to hell.
No, leftists have communes; rightists with guns have compounds.
Posts: 2911 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
My feelings on required community service are pretty simple. I'm okay with it so long as it is tied to an optional tax credit like Obama touted during his campaign. Back then it was $4,000 as a one time payment (more or less) for 100 hours a year of service, which equates to a $10 an hour job assuming you graduate in four years. That's fine with me.
Making it mandatory, especially with no tax incentive is ridiculous. More I think than being somehow illegal, it's a punishment to the educated. Kids who struggle and make it to college have to do more as a result than the kids who didn't? How much sense does that make? I'd almost understand it more if it was a requirement for all of the youth of the country rather than just the college educated. I'd also call it generational warfare that the youth of the country have to do it but no one else does. If the young people of the country were organized like the elderly are, they wouldn't get the shaft nearly as much as they do.
Assuming this is in fact optional in return for a fully refundable tax credit, I have concerns on who is in control of the service system. If it is run from Washington, I'm against it. I'm probably even against it if it's run at the state level. My feelings on how such a system should be run can be summed up on a cross-post from the last thread we had about this (about this exact same subject actually):
quote:I think the easiest way to organize the student population would be to have them register to volunteer just like they do for classes. That way there is a searchable database for students looking for something that suits them best, and that way there is a manageable number for the organizations to work with so they aren't flooded with a thousand students one day. Organizations can put in requests to the school, or even through a student run group (the students running the group could get volunteer credit hours of their own) that sets up the website, takes requests from organizations, posts links to their websites and puts down the allotment of slots desired. It'd be just like signing up for classes, only students would run that aspect of it instead of the registrar's office. I imagine the school would need to screen the organizations to see which ones are qualified, but once they are pre-approved, they might as well use tech-savvy and well organized student populations to do the rest rather than waste money on administrators.
In that sense, the only thing schools would need to do is check to make sure an organization is legit (which they'd only need to do once, and then maybe recertify every couple years), and work out some sort of validation program for the hours. It would be up to local businesses, community organizers and non-profit groups to ask the school for a certain number of students, and then up to the students themselves to take that information and organize it. I think that's a great three way burden sharing arrangement.
Having the organization be more or less student run but with some sort of collegiate oversight (paid for by the program and thus by the government) is the best way to do it in my eyes. It gets the students more actively involved in the community. Furthermore, I think it would allow them to choose volunteering options that are more conducive to their major, so maybe accounting majors will sign up to help senior citizens and the poor do their taxes, and history majors will sign up at local schools to help tutor kids after school, which also gives them exposure to the idea of teaching, and we could certainly use more and better teachers. Maybe nursing students could help at a Red Cross blood drive or help give out flu shots. This way they can gain practical experience and even network for themselves in the community.
A system like that is the only thing I could really see myself supporting, as I think most anything else would be too burdensome on the school, too ineffective in practice, or too expensive.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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