quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Stop, Blayne. Rabbit, you have a lot invested emotionally in creating some sort of moral equivalency here. I find that disgusting. It speaks volumes about the kind of person you are.
There is a moral equivalency. Israelis took land from Arabs. Arabs have every right to be pissed about it. The problem of Israel/Palestine can be solved if the Jews leave Israel. Arabs should use their oil wealth to pay every Israeli Jew vast sums of money to encourage Jews to leave.
Actually, the British/French took land from the Arabs. Then, the West decided to give it to the Jews. Would you really expect a bunch of Jews who had just survived genocide NOT to take it?
The Holocaust wasn't an Arab problem.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: I have only one thing left to say to you. Hershey's chocolate is gritty, sour and nasty (and that isn't an opinion, I have the scientific data to back it up (at least the first too any way)).
Clearly, you can't be reasoned with. And if it weren't for my diet, that last would have resulted in me going out and grabbing the biggest Hershey bar I could find. Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Stop, Blayne. Rabbit, you have a lot invested emotionally in creating some sort of moral equivalency here. I find that disgusting. It speaks volumes about the kind of person you are.
There is a moral equivalency. Israelis took land from Arabs. Arabs have every right to be pissed about it. The problem of Israel/Palestine can be solved if the Jews leave Israel. Arabs should use their oil wealth to pay every Israeli Jew vast sums of money to encourage Jews to leave.
Actually, the British/French took land from the Arabs. Then, the West decided to give it to the Jews. Would you really expect a bunch of Jews who had just survived genocide NOT to take it?
The Holocaust wasn't an Arab problem.
You're right. Now what?
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Clive, why can't the Jews have their homeland--one which was theirs in the historical past? Why begrudge the Jews for having one tiny little country they can call their own, while Arabs have several large countries with dozens of times more land area, and 40 times as many people? The Jewish people are semitic brethren of the Arabs. Why do the Arabs have to treat their Jewish brethren more like the way Cain treated Abel--with murderous hatred?
And Clive, it is not correct to say that the Israelis "took land from the Arabs." Let's get the facts of history right. When the Jews were organizing a national government for themselves in what had been called the territory of Palestine (administered by the British, not by any Arab government), they offered to allow native Palestinian Arabs to be a part of the new nation. But extremists in other Arab nations urged them not to go along, because the other Arab nations were going to go to war and try to topple the fledgling Jewish state. It is against these foreigners that the Israelis fought their war of independence. When those foreigners failed to defeat Israel, the native Palestinians were then just left hanging by their supposed Arab compatriots in other countries, who still urged them to refuse to join the new.
Israel could not have become a nation, had it not been for the approval and active sponsorship of the USA, Britain, and other members of the UN Security Council. With this in view, Israel would seem to be the most legitimate nation on earth, at least in modern history, because it had official international sanction. It did not shoot its way into power; its war of independence came after the nation of Israel was recognized internationally, and foreign governments then invaded Israel.
Another thing--when Palestine was just a territory administered by the British, it was mostly a desert waste, where few crops could grow. When the Jews took over, they virtually terraformed the land, literally making the desert bloom. The land so many Arabs covet now, was made to be land worth coveting because of the way the Jews transformed it. So to a large extent, the Jews built the land of Israel by their own science and effort. They deserve it. They earned it.
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Clive, why can't the Jews have their homeland--one which was theirs in the historical past? Why begrudge the Jews for having one tiny little country they can call their own, while Arabs have several large countries with dozens of times more land area, and 40 times as many people? The Jewish people are semitic brethren of the Arabs. Why do the Arabs have to treat their Jewish brethren more like the way Cain treated Abel--with murderous hatred?
When the Jews were establishing a country for themselves in what had been called the territory of Palestine (administered by the British, not by any Arab government), they offered to allow native Palestinian Arabs to be a part of the new nation. But extremists in other Arab nations urged them not to go along, because the other Arab nations were going to go to war and try to topple the fledgling Jewish state. When they failed to defeat Israel, the native Palestinians were then just left hanging by their supposed Arab compatriots in other countries.
Israel could not have become a nation, had it not been for the approval and active sponsorship of the USA, Britain, and other members of the UN Security Council. With this in view, Israel would seem to be the most legitimate nation on earth, at least in modern history, because it had official international sanction. It did not shoot its way into power; its war of independence came after the national of Israel was recognized internationally, and foreign governments invaded Israel.
Another thing--when Palestine was just a territory administered by the British, it was mostly a desert waste, where few crops could grow. When the Jews took over, they virtually terraformed the land, literally making the desert bloom. The land so many Arabs covet now, was made to be land worth coveting because of the way the Jews transformed it. So to a large extent, the Jews built the land of Israel by their own science and effort. They deserve it. They earned it.
It just never worked for me when people recite the history in detail, in defense of Israel, because it amounts to this: some people steal other people's land. The people whose land was stolen try to retrieve their land, only to lose more land in the process. The victims are then blamed for causing their current situation. Yawn. Jewish colonizers should leave the middle east, period, or Israel/West Bank/Gaza should become one country, just like South Africa.
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And the Arabs stole the lands from Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians. But this isn't helping solve any problems, is it.
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Clive, you say so blithely that the Jews should "leave the middle east, period." Where do you think they should go? Would you just shove them all into the Mediterranean to drown?
And I say again, it is not correct to say that the Jews stole Arab land. That is not the way that it happened. Quit believing slogans and learn real history! Why doesn't real history work for you?
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Ron: Well to be fair the Jews won it initially through conquest. They lost it the same way ala the Romans.
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quote:Originally posted by Armoth: And the Arabs stole the lands from Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians. But this isn't helping solve any problems, is it.
Fair enough, and perhaps 700 hundred years from now no one will care that Jews stole land from Arabs. As it stands, the fact is too damn recent.
“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” -David Ben-Gurion
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Armoth: True, the Mohommedan armies did acquire most of the territory they now hold by military conquest, taking the land from Jews and Christians. Uh--are you sure about the Zoroastrians?
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Armoth: True, the Mohommedan armies did acquire most of the territory they now hold by military conquest, taking the land from Jews and Christians. Uh--are you sure about the Zoroastrians?
Who do you think was living in Iraq?
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I thought Zoroastrianism was based more in Iran (where some still practice it today). Iran was Persia. Iraq was Babylon. Their religion involved Babylonian mysticism, the worship of Marduk, etc. Maybe there were some holdover Zoroastrians, too.
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Just because Jews have a need for Arab land does not mean they have a right to it. Were we asked to look at apartheid South Africa from "two sides"?
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: Why are y'all feeding the troll?
If you stand up for Palestinians the same way many Jewish posters here stand up for Israelis, you are a troll.
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Would any Palestian Arabs have lost their land if they had not taken up arms against the newly formed Israeli government? That government had originally offered them citizenship in the new nation of Israel.
If anyone is to blame for the loss of any Arab lands, it is those foreign Arab leaders in surrounding countries who urged the Pastenian Arabs to take up arms and rebel against the Israeli goverment.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Stop, Blayne. Rabbit, you have a lot invested emotionally in creating some sort of moral equivalency here. I find that disgusting. It speaks volumes about the kind of person you are.
There is a moral equivalency. Israelis took land from Arabs. Arabs have every right to be pissed about it. The problem of Israel/Palestine can be solved if the Jews leave Israel. Arabs should use their oil wealth to pay every Israeli Jew vast sums of money to encourage Jews to leave.
Israelis didn't take land from Arabs. Jews bought land (that belonged to us in the first place) for exorbinant prices. The Arabs got torqued about the influx of Jews, so they started attacking us. So we started defending ourselves.
At one point, the Brits, who'd been given control of the area by the League of Nations after it'd been taken away from the Ottoman Turks, carved off 79% of what was then called Palestine, and created an Arab country out of it. That'd be Jordan, which still has a large majority of Palestinian Arabs making up its populace.
Oh, and lest I forget, the Jews who'd bought property on the east side of the Jordan were SOL. They were forced to vacate without any compensation.
Meanwhile, the Arabs kept up their attacks, just like they did against the Christians when Lebanon was partitioned off of Syria to allow the Christians to have a place of their own, and just like they did in India when Pakistan was partitioned off in order to allow the Hindus to have a place of their own.
(Funny how it's always the Arabs/Muslims who can't get along with others, and whenever there's a partition, they kick the others out of their side and continue their efforts to take over the other side.)
So the Brits tried to placate the Arabs by banning Jewish immigration (to bought land, mind you), which forced us to immigrate illegally. So the Brits got their backs up and and started killing Jews for the mere possession of a firearm (while allowing the Arabs free rein). When we made it clear that was not going to work, they went to the UN and asked for the place to be taken off their hands. Wise move.
The UN decided to partition the 21% that was left of Palestine into 7 pieces. Three pieces each for the Jews and the Arabs, and Jerusalem to be internationalized. The three pieces for each side were not continuous. But the Jews were given the Negev, which was all desert, while the Arabs were given the more fertile central area.
Had the Arabs continued with their usual pattern, they would have simply accepted the partition and then kicked all the Jews out of their side and continued to work to take over ourside from within. But the rhetoric was high, and so was the sense they had that this time, it might not work. So they refused the partition deal. The local Arabs, along with the national armies of 6 Arab countries, invaded the three little pieces of Jewish Palestine, which was made up of 11% of the original area called Palestine, and more than half of it was complete desert, with next to no habitation whatsoever.
The 600,000 Jews fought them off, losing 10% of their population in the process. Imagine that. It'd be like the US losing 350,000,000 people. In the process, we took some of the land that'd been offered to the Arabs for an Arab Palestine (and refused by them) so that the three areas would be continuous.
Jewish Palestine decided to call itself Israel, so the Palestinian Jews stopped being called Palestinians and started being called Israelis, which, in retrospect, gave the Arab Palestinians a great PR weapon.
Meanwhile, the new State of Israel looked like it had a huge bite taken out of it on the east (what you all call the West Bank). Did the Arabs set up an Arab state there the way the Jews were doing on their side? No, because that wasn't what they wanted. They were held by Jordan (the other 79% of Palestine) which annexed them. The annexation was never recognized by anyone but Britain and Pakistan (see if you can figure out why that might be given the pattern I mentioned above), but it was one big Arab Palestinian family.
While Jews were, of course, kicked out of that land on pain of death for so much as entering, the Arabs on our side were given citizenship, voting rights, national insurance membership, etc.
In 1964, Ahmed Shukeiry created a group called the Palestine Liberation Organization. The PLO. Fatah, in Arabic. And you have to wonder, what exactly did they want to liberate? The "West Bank"? Jordan had that, and the PLO didn't seem to mind. The Gaza Strip? Egypt had that, and the PLO had no complaints. What they wanted to "liberate" was everything. And they were well funded by the Arab countries in the region, who just wanted the Jews to get the hell out.
Then in 1967, Egypt and Syria (united as the United Arab Republic) tried to squash Israel, and Jordan stupidly joined in. Syria lost their high ground overlooking northern Israel (the Golan Heights), Jordan lost Judea and Samaria (the West Bank), giving us a much shorter and natural border to defend at the Jordan River, and Egypt lost the whole bloody Sinai.
Israel, rather than just annex the land, offered to return it if the Arabs would simply agree to have peace. But that was apparently too high a price for them. Imagine, attacked, again, in a genocidal war of annihilation, and we turned around and offered to give everything back (including Hebron, where the Patriarchs of Israel are buried and which was David's first capitol, Shechem/Nablus, where Joseph is buried, Bethlehem, home town of David, and Eastern Jerusalem, including the Jewish Quarter). The day after we took Jerusalem, Moshe Dayan handed the keys to the Temple Mount -- the single holiest place in Judaism -- over to the Muslim Waqf. Representatives of a religion whose scriptures don't even mention Jerusalem.
Well, we gave Egypt the Sinai. They just made it illegal for an Egyptian to marry an Israeli (even if both are Arab Muslims, mind you). They broadcast hateful propaganda against Jews and Israel on their government run TV stations. We destroyed our own towns in the Sinai when we did that.
We gave them autonomy as a reward for their continued violence against us. We armed their security forces, and found those weapons used against us. We gave them Hebron. They have razed Joseph's Tomb to the ground twice now since then.
We gave them Gaza, and they started firing rockets at us from Gaza.
Don't kid yourself. They don't want a Palestinian Arab state. They could have declared one of those a while back. You know as well as I do that if we pull out of Judea and Samaria, the same thing that happened with Gaza will happen. Except that this time, it'll happen along a vastly longer border, far closer to Jewish population centers, and we'll have to render hundreds of thousands of innocent Jews homeless and jobless, instead of the "mere" 9000 we did that to when we abandoned Gaza.
It isn't going to happen. They consider Tel Aviv to be an illegal settlement. They consider every Jewish city to be an illegal settlement.
So they'll dream their dreams of genocide, and fools will continue to believe that one more concession will turn them into peace loving sweethearts.
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Would any Palestian Arabs have lost their land if they had not taken up arms against the newly formed Israeli government?
"Would you have lost more land if you didn't try to get your stolen land back in the first place?"
quote: If anyone is to blame for the loss of any Arab lands, it is those foreign Arab leaders in surrounding countries who urged the Pastenian Arabs to take up arms and rebel against the Israeli goverment.
I blame the thieves who stole the land -- Jewish Zionists.
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Why is it that those who "stand up for Palestinians" always duck certain questions, when they bring up the actual facts of history?
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"Between justice and genocide there is, in the long run, no middle ground." I suspect this one will end in genocide. I do not predict which side will be left with any people; since there are nukes, it could conceivably be neither one. Israel is not a large chunk of land, it wouldn't take very many city-busters to render it uninhabitable for quite some time. Although I suppose the more fanatical sorts would be willing to put up with tripled incidences of cancer and birth defects.
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Armoth: True, the Mohommedan armies did acquire most of the territory they now hold by military conquest, taking the land from Jews and Christians. Uh--are you sure about the Zoroastrians?
Just because Jews have a need for Arab land does not mean they have a right to it. Were we asked to look at apartheid South Africa from "two sides"?
Dumb comparison. Jews are the ones who were kicked out of Arab lands. Their property was confiscated and they were forced to flee with nothing but the clothes on their backs and whatever they could carry. Why aren't you as concerned about them? There were more Jews who lost their land and property in 1948 than Arabs who lost their land and property in 1948 and 1967 combined. How about let's call it a wash.
In any case, when Jews aren't allowed to live in Jordan and there are Arabs in the Israeli parliament, accusing us of apartheid just makes you look stupid.
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A bunch of idiot drunk kids. Get back to me when they actually commit acts of violence. What kind of lunatic compares this with Arab kids throwing molotov cocktails and blowing up school buses?
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Armoth: True, the Mohommedan armies did acquire most of the territory they now hold by military conquest, taking the land from Jews and Christians. Uh--are you sure about the Zoroastrians?
Who do you think was living in Iraq?
Um... Iran.
The Sassanids were in power in Iraq at this time. They were Zoroastrians, no?
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Just because Jews have a need for Arab land does not mean they have a right to it. Were we asked to look at apartheid South Africa from "two sides"?
Dumb comparison. Jews are the ones who were kicked out of Arab lands.
An overreaction to Zionism. They weren't kicked out randomly.
quote: In any case, when Jews aren't allowed to live in Jordan and there are Arabs in the Israeli parliament, accusing us of apartheid just makes you look stupid.
They were allowed to live there before most Jews decided that stealing land from Arabs was okay.
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Armoth: True, the Mohommedan armies did acquire most of the territory they now hold by military conquest, taking the land from Jews and Christians. Uh--are you sure about the Zoroastrians?
Who do you think was living in Iraq?
Um... Iran.
The Sassanids were in power in Iraq at this time. They were Zoroastrians, no?
A bunch of idiot drunk kids. Get back to me when they actually commit acts of violence. What kind of lunatic compares this with Arab kids throwing molotov cocktails and blowing up school buses?
Jewish Zionists saw perfectly fit to resort to terrorism when it was convenient for them. Those kids will influence American Middle East policy and continue to oppress Arabs, much like their parents.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Dumb comparison. Jews are the ones who were kicked out of Arab lands.
An overreaction to Zionism. They weren't kicked out randomly.
quote: In any case, when Jews aren't allowed to live in Jordan and there are Arabs in the Israeli parliament, accusing us of apartheid just makes you look stupid.
They were allowed to live there before most Jews decided that stealing land from Arabs was okay.
You're an idiot. I wish I knew whose alt you were.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Stop, Blayne. Rabbit, you have a lot invested emotionally in creating some sort of moral equivalency here. I find that disgusting. It speaks volumes about the kind of person you are.
There is a moral equivalency. Israelis took land from Arabs. Arabs have every right to be pissed about it. The problem of Israel/Palestine can be solved if the Jews leave Israel. Arabs should use their oil wealth to pay every Israeli Jew vast sums of money to encourage Jews to leave.
Israelis didn't take land from Arabs. Jews bought land (that belonged to us in the first place) for exorbinant prices. The Arabs got torqued about the influx of Jews, so they started attacking us. So we started defending ourselves.
A rich Arab man can buy land in America. That doesn't entitle him the right to carve out a country out of that land.
Moreover, why shouldn't Arabs have been gotten pissed at a Jewish influx hell bent on displacing them?
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Dumb comparison. Jews are the ones who were kicked out of Arab lands.
An overreaction to Zionism. They weren't kicked out randomly.
quote: In any case, when Jews aren't allowed to live in Jordan and there are Arabs in the Israeli parliament, accusing us of apartheid just makes you look stupid.
They were allowed to live there before most Jews decided that stealing land from Arabs was okay.
You're an idiot.
And you're a big poopie face.
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A bunch of idiot drunk kids. Get back to me when they actually commit acts of violence. What kind of lunatic compares this with Arab kids throwing molotov cocktails and blowing up school buses?
Jewish Zionists saw perfectly fit to resort to terrorism when it was convenient for them. Those kids will influence American Middle East policy and continue to oppress Arabs, much like their parents.
Garbage. Even when we attacked military centers, we gave them advance warning. Compare that to your Arabs, who walk into crowded restaurants or parties or markets and blow themselves up to kill as many Jews as possible.
Death worshippers, and you side with them. Sick.
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A bunch of idiot drunk kids. Get back to me when they actually commit acts of violence. What kind of lunatic compares this with Arab kids throwing molotov cocktails and blowing up school buses?
Jewish Zionists saw perfectly fit to resort to terrorism when it was convenient for them. Those kids will influence American Middle East policy and continue to oppress Arabs, much like their parents.
Garbage. Even when we attacked military centers, we gave them advance warning. Compare that to your Arabs, who walk into crowded restaurants or parties or markets and blow themselves up to kill as many Jews as possible.
Death worshippers, and you side with them. Sick.
And you side with Jewish Colonizers. And I don't condemn Palestinians for what they resort to just as I don't blame Native Americans for having slaughtered European settlers.
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quote:Originally posted by Clive Candy: A rich Arab man can buy land in America. That doesn't entitle him the right to carve out a country out of that land.
That's because there's already a country there. There wasn't one when Jews started buying land. Or rather, there was, but it was an outlying area of the Ottoman Empire, and after WWI, there was no Ottoman Empire any more. The first country that came into being in Palestine after the Ottoman Turks lost it was Jordan. The second was Israel. There hasn't been a third yet, and there's no reason there ever should be. There's already a Palestinian Arab state. Let them go there.
quote:Originally posted by Clive Candy: Moreover, why shouldn't Arabs have been gotten pissed at a Jewish influx hell bent on displacing them?
"Why shouldn't we burn crosses on those negras lawns? It's their own fault for moving into our neighborhood." You're vile.
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quote:Originally posted by Clive Candy: [qb]A rich Arab man can buy land in America. That doesn't entitle him the right to carve out a country out of that land.
That's because there's already a country there. There wasn't one when Jews started buying land. Or rather, there was, but it was an outlying area of the Ottoman Empire, and after WWI, there was no Ottoman Empire any more. The first country that came into being in Palestine after the Ottoman Turks lost it was Jordan. The second was Israel. There hasn't been a third yet, and there's no reason there ever should be. There's already a Palestinian Arab state. Let them go there.
But there would eventually have been a country there--just as all those countries came to be formed when European left the Middle East/Africa. Except in the case of Palestine these interlopers came from nowhere to take advantage of the transition, to the detriment of the native Arab population. No no--the solution is for the Jews to leave. They can go to all those European countries and America.
quote:"Why shouldn't we burn crosses on those negras lawns? It's their own fault for moving into our neighborhood." You're vile.
Except if black people were moving to white areas with the intention of creating a separate country, I would say that white people would have every right to keep them out.
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Oh, you're the Somalian. Figures. And kat, I'm no troll. Or are you abusing that term to mean anyone who posts in a way you don't like?
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quote:Originally posted by Clive Candy: But there would eventually have been a country there--just as all those countries came to be formed when European left the Middle East/Africa. Except in the case of Palestine these interlopers came from nowhere to take advantage of the transition, to the detriment of the native Arab population. No no--the solution is for the Jews to leave. They can go to all those European countries and America.
It'll never happen. And when we started coming back, the Ottomans still ran the place. We would have petitioned them for autonomy, for sure. But once the area became countryless, it was obvious that it was time for us to come home.
And home it is, Somalian. It'll never be anything else. And the solution is for the poor little Palestinian Arabs to join their brethren on the east side of the Jordan River.
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Blayne Bradley
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posted
And you think Clive is a stunning example of forum virtue in this case?
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: You are a fine example of a troll on this topic.
Go look it up, kat. I'm posting genuinely, and I don't raise this in every friggin' topic. In fact, I pulled this out of another thread specifically so that it wouldn't interfere with that thread. That's the opposite of what a troll does.
You're just using "troll" as a generic insult. The way children who don't know better call people fascist for any political view they don't like. Grow up.
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Lisa's manners, choice of words, response patterns, attitude toward other posters, and actual content when it comes to this topic are all indicative of a troll. It's about on the same level as the "Hating Autism" blog guy.
I don't know or care about the motivations for it. It is so predictable, so nasty, and so destructive, however, that I would think it's common knowledge by now.
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Blayne Bradley
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Shes passionate, if anything I think Clive is the problem here bordering on anti semetism.
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quote:Originally posted by Clive Candy: But there would eventually have been a country there--just as all those countries came to be formed when European left the Middle East/Africa. Except in the case of Palestine these interlopers came from nowhere to take advantage of the transition, to the detriment of the native Arab population. No no--the solution is for the Jews to leave. They can go to all those European countries and America.
It'll never happen. And when we started coming back, the Ottomans still ran the place. We would have petitioned them for autonomy, for sure. But once the area became countryless, it was obvious that it was time for us to come home.
And home it is, Somalian. It'll never be anything else. And the solution is for the poor little Palestinian Arabs to join their brethren on the east side of the Jordan River.
This is like white South Africans saying blacks in that country should join the Zulus in the nearby countries. Racism is at the heart of the Zionist venture, undoubtedly, and Lisa exemplifies this mindset perfectly. Defiance is all that's left to you at the end. Just remember that tyrants always fall, sooner or later.
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