FacebookTwitter
Hatrack River Forum   
my profile login | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Not dead yet (Page 1)

  This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3   
Author Topic: Not dead yet
scifibum
Member
Member # 7625

 - posted      Profile for scifibum   Email scifibum         Edit/Delete Post 
sarcasticmuppet linked to this site in the late term abortions thread:

http://notdeadyetnewscommentary.blogspot.com/

I have an anecdote.

My uncle is diabetic and in generally poor health, and is often sad. He's single, in his forties, and when he came out as gay a few years ago it was after years of hiding it from his church and family, and the family's reaction was not gentle. (Among other things they [temporarily, thank goodness] banned nieces and nephews from being around him.)

So anyway he adopted the attitude that his life is hard enough and he doesn't want to deal with increased hardship, and he established a do-not-resuscitate order.

So he visits a friend in Florida, has a heart attack, and quickly cascades to kidney failure and is put on a breathing machine, and isn't responsive or conscious as far as anyone can tell. The most staid members of the family, the same who reacted strongly to his coming out, push the DNR, say "well, that's it. Take him off the life support." I don't know with what combination of sadness of relief but I do know it was a combination. Two sisters object and race to Florida to run interference. The doctors themselves demur, they don't feel it's gonna stay that bad. A fight ensues. Well, a few days later he's off the respirator, his kidneys seem to be doing better, and he comes around enough to explain that yes, he still wants to live, thanks for not turning off the machines.

A few months later he's essentially back where he was prior to the heart attack, and there's some rather heavy atmosphere at family gatherings since various people have to reconcile his willing living presence with their push to let him die. He seems to take it in good humor. (!! but he did write the DNR.)

I happen to believe that people should be able to end their own lives if they wish, as long as they are of sound mind. I also support the idea of removing life support when a spouse or parent or guardian decides it is time, and the patient is mentally gone. (And I don't think I can proscribe reasons.)

But this experience with my uncle has been sufficient to convince me to deliberate long and hard before ever involving myself in such a decision, or finalizing one.

Posts: 4287 | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Synesthesia
Member
Member # 4774

 - posted      Profile for Synesthesia   Email Synesthesia         Edit/Delete Post 
Dang, I hope things get better for your uncle and that he finds a nice boyfriend.

I don't know if I believe in being DNR because one never knows.

Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
scifibum
Member
Member # 7625

 - posted      Profile for scifibum   Email scifibum         Edit/Delete Post 
I'm not sure if he's looking or if he's trying to reconcile with church. I ought to write him, actually.
Posts: 4287 | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Kwea
Member
Member # 2199

 - posted      Profile for Kwea   Email Kwea         Edit/Delete Post 
That group, Not Dead Yet, was founded by sndrake and his wife Dianne. They are posters here at Hatrack, although sndrake posts mer than Dianne does I believe.

I haven't seen sndrake in a while, but he is cool. [Big Grin]

Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eaquae Legit
Member
Member # 3063

 - posted      Profile for Eaquae Legit   Email Eaquae Legit         Edit/Delete Post 
He definitely is! And they also deserve a shout-out as part of why I study what I do (disability in the medieval world).
Posts: 2849 | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Pixiest
Member
Member # 1863

 - posted      Profile for The Pixiest   Email The Pixiest         Edit/Delete Post 
I've thought about a DNR simply because I fear dying more than I fear death. And I sure as hell don't want to do it twice.

scifi: I wish I could give your uncle a hug.

Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
The most staid members of the family, the same who reacted strongly to his coming out, push the DNR, say "well, that's it. Take him off the life support."
Sigh.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tara
Member
Member # 10030

 - posted      Profile for Tara   Email Tara         Edit/Delete Post 
I don't believe assisted suicide should be legal. The way I see it, how long you're alive doesn't change how long you'll be dead. You may want to end your life now, but, no matter whether you commit suicide or not, you'll be dead EVENTUALLY. You'll get what you want eventually. So why not just live as long as possible while you can, no matter how painful it is?
Life is not a universal guarantee; you could just as easily have gotten NO life at all, AND you will eventually be dead for the rest of time anyway!
I would never write a DNR for myself, nor would I ever perform it for someone else. (I suppose it's more complicated if the person is 100% brain dead). Everyone should take every pain-filled, terrible, rotten day they are given because those days are all among only a handful of alive days you will get, while the other million trillon days of eternity, you will be dead. This belief is so important to me that I would do everything possible to make other people believe it as well, even if it means going against someone's expressed wish to be euthanized.

Posts: 930 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post 
If a person is brain dead/PVS, there's nothing there to kill. They're gone. You have a corpse with some autonomous biological function.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Pixiest
Member
Member # 1863

 - posted      Profile for The Pixiest   Email The Pixiest         Edit/Delete Post 
Sorry Tara, but everyone's life is their own. It should be their choice, not yours and people should be free to help them (assuming reasonable precautions to make sure it's not murder.)

In other words, ~~It's my body, I can die if I want to.~~

Happiness, Freedom and Life. To lose one is to render the other two meaningless.

Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
andi330
Member
Member # 8572

 - posted      Profile for andi330           Edit/Delete Post 
I have to say that I think a blanket "I would never" is a bit extreme. You are entitled to your viewpoint, but DNRs serve a useful purpose too. My grandmother had one before she passed away, and my mother chose to honor it. She was 92, she was in poor health overall, she'd been seeing people long dead for more than 2 years, and there was no chance at making her better. When she passed away a year ago and my mother chose to honor her DNR, she could have pushed the doctors to bring her back. It might even have worked. But what quality of life would that have been for her? How much longer would she truly have lived?

Tara, you referred to a DNR as assisted suicide. I have to say that I disagree with that statement EXTREMELY strongly. In fact, I find it offensive. There is a huge difference between assisted suicide, when a doctor or other person is enlisted to administer drugs or otherwise cause the death of a person, and a DNR. A DNR is a legal document signed by either the individual in question, or the person in charge of their medical decisions, and it states specifically what may or may not be done if resuscitation is required. It can be very specific, indicating exactly what you do and do not want done to your body, stating anywhere from do absolutely nothing, to no feeding tube but cardio stimulation is permitted and many other things. Essentially it is a document that determines what treatments are permitted and what aren't, and it gives the person the opportunity to say, "I want my life to take its natural course." I don't currently have a DNR. I'm 30 with no major health issues and it isn't necessary. But if 10 years from now, I find that I've been battling a fatal illness and it has come to the point where my quality of life is minimal and there is little to no hope for recuperation, I am glad that I live in a country where it is perfectly legal for me (being of sound mind) or my family (whom I will be sure to let know of my wishes) to tell the doctors, enough. No more treatments.

Posts: 1214 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rivka
Member
Member # 4859

 - posted      Profile for rivka   Email rivka         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by andi330:
Tara, you referred to a DNR as assisted suicide. I have to say that I disagree with that statement EXTREMELY strongly.

Agreed.
quote:
Originally posted by andi330:
But if 10 years from now, I find that I've been battling a fatal illness and it has come to the point where my quality of life is minimal and there is little to no hope for recuperation, I am glad that I live in a country where it is perfectly legal for me (being of sound mind) or my family (whom I will be sure to let know of my wishes) to tell the doctors, enough. No more treatments.

Agreed, and I am strongly against euthanasia.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tara
Member
Member # 10030

 - posted      Profile for Tara   Email Tara         Edit/Delete Post 
I apologize for my wording, I'm glad you took the time to point that out to me.
Posts: 930 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tara
Member
Member # 10030

 - posted      Profile for Tara   Email Tara         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by The Pixiest:
Sorry Tara, but everyone's life is their own. It should be their choice, not yours and people should be free to help them (assuming reasonable precautions to make sure it's not murder.)

That's precisely it -- I don't believe those precautions could ever be taken successfully. You state your position clearly but you don't give me any reason to be convinced that you could ever be certain it wasn't murder.


quote:
Originally posted by The Pixiest:

In other words, ~~It's my body, I can die if I want to.~~

Happiness, Freedom and Life. To lose one is to render the other two meaningless.

I disagree. The only thing that would render my life meaningless would be lack of hope. While there's still hope for happiness and freedom in the future (even if not at the present) I will still want to live. There's no reason not to. I repeat, everyone will die eventually. So what's the point of bringing it about earlier, while there's still hope? And isn't there always hope for everyone, besides those cases of being brain dead, right at the end of your life, etc.
Was that a rebuttle to your point, or did I miss the point? Your statement was brief and kind of general, and I'm not sure I'm understanding the scope of it.

I confess, I've never really understood the whole "give me freedom or give me death" thing. How do you judge freedom? How much freedom are we talking about? Is it freedom from government, freedom from religion, freedom from society... All of those, or only some of those? Absolute freedom is not something that even appeals to me. I can't even really imagine it. Freedom from society I certainly would never want -- I would be completely unhappy. Or is it implied that those who say "give me freedom or give me death" aren't taking it THAT far?

Posts: 930 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Raymond Arnold
Member
Member # 11712

 - posted      Profile for Raymond Arnold   Email Raymond Arnold         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I disagree. The only thing that would render my life meaningless would be lack of hope.
I agree with this statement. And it is precisely lack of hope that makes DNR and euthanasia necessary.
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tara
Member
Member # 10030

 - posted      Profile for Tara   Email Tara         Edit/Delete Post 
I guess I can't really imagine a situation with no hope, so it makes it difficult for me to see the other side of this issue.

And please don't read any arrogance or nuance into that statement...And I AM honestly trying to imagine the other side of this issues, I just can't.

Posts: 930 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
andi330
Member
Member # 8572

 - posted      Profile for andi330           Edit/Delete Post 
I don't agree that signing a DNR indicates that people have no hope. There is a reality in this world that we will all die at some point. Some people will die of incurable disease, others will die of old age, and others due to health problems caused by their own behaviors in life. When you come to a certain point, whether it is the reality that the current medical treatments available cannot cure your disease or improve your quality of life, or you simply get to an age where it is unlikely you are going to live to be too much older, it is good to have the option to simply let nature take its course. This is much different than euthanasia or assisted suicide where there are actions being taken that are intended to cause the death of a person.

If I was to have a terrible car accident tomorrow, and have to go into the hospital, I would certainly want my family to have the doctors try everything possible to save me, including feeding tubes and all the rest. However, if it became obvious that the machines were the only thing keeping me alive, no brain activity etc, then I would want to let nature take its course. I don't think choosing a DNR indicates that a person has given up all hope in any case, but especially when it is an elderly person choosing it. It is a simple facing of reality. We only get so many years on this planet and then we will die. We should have some choice about what kind of artificial means are used to keep us alive.

Posts: 1214 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Bob_Scopatz
Member
Member # 1227

 - posted      Profile for Bob_Scopatz   Email Bob_Scopatz         Edit/Delete Post 
I realize I'm taking a statement out of context here, but...

[lecture]

The phrase is "Give me liberty, or give me death."

It is as concise a statement as there could possibly be about what it means to have a country like America. It's why struggles like emancipation, universal suffrage, civil rights, equal rights, and a whole host of other issues are inevitably solved in a particular direction in this country -- the direction that holds individual freedom and self-determination as core values.

It figures LARGELY into the great social issue debates in our modern times: abortion, gay rights, non-traditional marriage, euthanasia, and more.

Granted, we sometimes take way too long getting to the right decision, but, bottom line is that we eventually (I would say inevitably) get there.

People have offered up their lives to that principle so that those coming after them could enjoy the liberties thus gained.

If we lose sight of that, America loses its very soul.

[/lecture]

Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Glenn Arnold
Member
Member # 3192

 - posted      Profile for Glenn Arnold   Email Glenn Arnold         Edit/Delete Post 
Hey Bob! Nice to see you!

That's an interesting way of looking at the "give me liberty or give me death" statement. Similarly, we view giving our lives for our country by serving in the military as a sign of patriotism, yet the decision to end your life when facing a much more certain enemy, such as disease or merely old age, is somehow considered wrong.

One of the greatest gifts my grandmother gave to me was to explain with great certainty that she wanted to die before she had to endure the mental and physical suffering of old age. She lived her worst nightmare in that she lived to be 91 and died of emphysema. She would have preferred a nice quick heart attack at 75. But when she did die, my grief was limited to the fact that I missed her. I was not sorry she was dead, and in fact, I was relieved, because I knew without doubt that it's what she wanted.

Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Pixiest
Member
Member # 1863

 - posted      Profile for The Pixiest   Email The Pixiest         Edit/Delete Post 
Great post Bob!

Tara: There's no point clawing for every last breath of life when all the joy has been sucked out, never to return. This is especially true of catastrophic disabilities and old age.

And Hope is just a lie we tell ourselves to feel better about reality.

Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tara
Member
Member # 10030

 - posted      Profile for Tara   Email Tara         Edit/Delete Post 
Why should life only be about joy? Pain is a kind of experience too. You won't feel ANYTHING when you're dead. Personally, I kind of prefer pain. You can always find something to be happy about, if you abandon the idea that life should be at a certain level of goodness and happiness. The pain you're describing about old age -- what if you were born feeling that pain, and were accustomed to it? Then you would not feel sorry for yourself over it, and you would be happy in spite of it.
Posts: 930 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Bob_Scopatz
Member
Member # 1227

 - posted      Profile for Bob_Scopatz   Email Bob_Scopatz         Edit/Delete Post 
I would like to point out that I am not an enthusiastic supporter of euthanasia. I do believe that the individual has the right to choose. The problem I have in how things are implemented here in the US is that "assistance" starts to look a lot like murder in some cases.

It is also a problem that in some areas we already see slippage from "individual choices" to "we know _____ would not want to have to live this way."

The Not Dead Yet organization is a great resource for folks who wish to see the issue from another perspective, by the way. I think Diane, Stephen & crew are the most articulate folks on the web, period.

Anyway, Glenn, I think the US has a history of coming to terms with difficult social issues, but that it takes us a long time -- sometimes generations. We get there, eventually, and, it seems to me, get to the point of siding with individual freedom -- sometimes even to the detriment of society in general. But that's us. That's who we are.

Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Pixiest
Member
Member # 1863

 - posted      Profile for The Pixiest   Email The Pixiest         Edit/Delete Post 
Tara dear, it's fine if you're only happy when it rains. But realize some people are not. And it's their choice, not yours.
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
ClaudiaTherese
Member
Member # 923

 - posted      Profile for ClaudiaTherese           Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Tara:
I would never write a DNR for myself, nor would I ever perform it for someone else. (I suppose it's more complicated if the person is 100% brain dead). Everyone should take every pain-filled, terrible, rotten day they are given because those days are all among only a handful of alive days you will get, while the other million trillon days of eternity, you will be dead. This belief is so important to me that I would do everything possible to make other people believe it as well, even if it means going against someone's expressed wish to be euthanized.

[NB: as noted above, DNR != euthanasia]

Tara, I think the genuine experiences of many, many people considering DNRs in the real world are much more complicated and complex than you give them credit for. I think it is a failing in us when we talk about such things as if there were cavalier, obviously correct choices that other people should just buck up and recognize (if they'd only be as positive as we are: just turn that frown upside down, Chuck!). For example, take what resuscitation really means: even in hospitals with trained personnel and appropriate life-saving instruments, it fails more than it succeeds for adults. The average figure is 5-10% success rate, and for those with longstanding multiple medical problems, that success rate drops well below 2%. It is also not a benign procedure.

The American Heart Association recommends using sufficient force in performing CPR to exert 100-125 pounds of pressure on the chests of adults who have no heartbeat. Most people considering DNRs are frail, elderly people prone to osteoporosis and other illnesses that make broken hips a real risk with simple falls. To have someone pushing with a force of 125 pounds straight on the chest means breaking the ribs are likely. Even children may show up with rib fractures after properly-performed CPR. The first time I was present at a Code Blue in the hospital, I was trying to find a vein in the neck to get in an IV line. I felt the elderly man's ribs break -- the vibrations shuddered through his body, and the guy who was doing chest compressions sunk his clasped hands deeper into the chest. It was unsuccessful. Neither the fractures nor the lack of success surprised anyone.

At the autopsy, the guy who'd broken the ribs turned ashen as the chest cavity was revealed -- three broken rib bones had punctured the lungs, 2 on one side and 1 on the other. The pathologist assured us that the man was already dead before the ribs broke. Thank God.

But, too, we were reassured that nothing had been done incorrectly, and this was just what happens. This gentleman had prostate cancer which had seeded to his bones, and his sternum (chestbone) was riddled with holes from it.

Now, if he'd survived, he would have been a man in his eighties with two punctured lungs, a body full of untreatable prostate cancer, exacerbated heart failure, on a ventilator, and on sufficient pain medication he'd have been quite unlikely to ever regain full consciousness. For whatever reason, he did not have a DNR order on his chart. The people involved were happy to provide him with the chance to make it through this sort of event, given that those were his presumed wishes.

However. However. I'm fine with people believing they would make a different choice in the same situation. I am not fine with people belittling the choices made by others actually facing very harsh realities. It's true that individuals facing DNR decisions must be presented with accurate, thorough information on both sides: both what resuscitation would likely entail in their particular circumstances and how much help and support there is for recovery and maintaining joy in life afterward. But those balances can tip either way, given the particular circumstances, and we owe it to people having to make these choices not to belittle or make light of where their options lead them, given a fully-informed and accurate understanding for themselves of what those options are.

---

Edited to add: Obviously, there is a wide range of circumstance. The uncle with diabetes referenced above would not be in the same position as someone with a terminal diagnosis who couldn't even lie flat because of his heart failure. *** And there is much to be said for screening for and treating depression, providing better social supports, and lifting the weight of obligations to others from the shoulders of those already in pain.

Just don't assume that is always going to address the deepest concerns of those making these decisions. When we do that, we make light of what can be real, heart-wrenching, incomparable tragedy.

-

***I watched a man die this way. He was too sick to be operated on, and he couldn't tolerate any higher levels of medication. After three heart attacks, only one wall of his heart was still beating. If he lay flat, he drowned in his own lungs. He was so fragile that the physicians involved were sure trying to paralyze him and put him on a ventilator would kill him. (And he didn't want that, anyway.)

He took close to two weeks to die. Two weeks of sitting up in a hospital bed, leaning over the bedtable that stretched across his lap, gray-faced and constantly gasping for breath. It was horrible to watch.

If he preferred not to have his lungs punctured by his own broken bones in order to have a measly chance at having an extra day to gasp for breath, well, I am not going to fault him for not being mentally perky enough.

---

Edited again to add: I also wouldn't fault you for believing you would chose the CPR anyway, and I wouldn't fault you for actually making that choice in that circumstance, if you did. Rather, I'm merely saying that others who make a different choice in that sort of circumstance don't need to have their decisions discussed as if they are misguided confetti decisions that could be improved by a positive-thinking course.

[ June 06, 2009, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]

Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Samprimary
Member
Member # 8561

 - posted      Profile for Samprimary   Email Samprimary         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Tara:
The pain you're describing about old age -- what if you were born feeling that pain, and were accustomed to it? Then you would not feel sorry for yourself over it, and you would be happy in spite of it.

This is not actually true. One's ability to be happy is not entirely relative to what you are accustomed to. Pain is pain. Children who have grown up with chronic pain are usually not happy even if they have been 'used to' this pain.

They're in pain.

Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
ClaudiaTherese
Member
Member # 923

 - posted      Profile for ClaudiaTherese           Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
quote:
Originally posted by andi330:
Tara, you referred to a DNR as assisted suicide. I have to say that I disagree with that statement EXTREMELY strongly.

Agreed.
quote:
Originally posted by andi330:
But if 10 years from now, I find that I've been battling a fatal illness and it has come to the point where my quality of life is minimal and there is little to no hope for recuperation, I am glad that I live in a country where it is perfectly legal for me (being of sound mind) or my family (whom I will be sure to let know of my wishes) to tell the doctors, enough. No more treatments.

Agreed, and I am strongly against euthanasia.

Agreed on all counts here as well.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
scifibum
Member
Member # 7625

 - posted      Profile for scifibum   Email scifibum         Edit/Delete Post 
Apologies if I conflated euthanasia or assisted suicide with DNR.
Posts: 4287 | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
MightyCow
Member
Member # 9253

 - posted      Profile for MightyCow           Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Tara:
Personally, I kind of prefer pain. You can always find something to be happy about, if you abandon the idea that life should be at a certain level of goodness and happiness. The pain you're describing about old age -- what if you were born feeling that pain, and were accustomed to it? Then you would not feel sorry for yourself over it, and you would be happy in spite of it.

I have to wonder if you've ever been in a situation of severe, debilitating, chronic pain. Maybe you have, and I'm being out of line, but I kind of doubt it. Having had several times in my life where I was in extreme, constant, curl up and hope the drugs help pain, the "just grin and bear it" attitude really doesn't apply.

I didn't want to die, because I had a good prognosis for recovery, and am thankfully quite healthy now, but if I had known that I would spend the rest of my life in that kind of pain, I can certainly understand giving up hope and wanting it to be over.

Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kmbboots
Member
Member # 8576

 - posted      Profile for kmbboots   Email kmbboots         Edit/Delete Post 
What I am learning from this discussion is that personal decisions are indeed personal. No one can decide what is "right" for someone else. The range of human experience often exceeds our ability to imagine ourselves in another's place and we all have the right to our individual response to our unique experience whether or not someone else can imagine having that response to that experience.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BannaOj
Member
Member # 3206

 - posted      Profile for BannaOj   Email BannaOj         Edit/Delete Post 
Chronic pain sufferers also frequently suffer from depression. Because pain sucks.

It's even worse when you are in pain as a child and you think everyone else is in the same amount of pain, because it is "normal". Nope it isn't. It still sucks. And then it still gets worse as you get older.

Posts: 11265 | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
katharina
Member
Member # 827

 - posted      Profile for katharina   Email katharina         Edit/Delete Post 
I am very opposed to euthanasia. I am not at all opposed to DNRs.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Belle
Member
Member # 2314

 - posted      Profile for Belle   Email Belle         Edit/Delete Post 
Count me as another person who is against euthanasia but all right with DNR's. As the wife of a paramedic, I know all too well how low the success rate for CPR is. The success rate for survival to discharge is depressingly low. Except in rare cases, like drownings or electrocutions, most people who have fatal heart rhythms die - even if they're brought back with CPR to a more normal rhythm, they seldom make it home from the hospital.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Pixiest
Member
Member # 1863

 - posted      Profile for The Pixiest   Email The Pixiest         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by BannaOj:
Chronic pain sufferers also frequently suffer from depression. Because pain sucks.

It's even worse when you are in pain as a child and you think everyone else is in the same amount of pain, because it is "normal". Nope it isn't. It still sucks. And then it still gets worse as you get older.

wait... being in pain all the time isn't normal?
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Christine
Member
Member # 8594

 - posted      Profile for Christine   Email Christine         Edit/Delete Post 
My first question is: Who had power of attorney? Along with a DNR order, the key is to have given power of attorney to someone who you trust and who understands your wishes. My father has gone over this with me many times...if the doctors think there is a reasonable chance that he can pull through (as in the case of your uncle) than he wants the chance. If there is basically no chance that he will recover, then he wants to be allowed to die. It seems pretty straightforward and I have the same philosophy, which I shared with my husband (who would have the final say in the mater). I really think the key is making sure that the people who get to decide are people you trust, and not people who refused to let their children come visit you because you're gay.
Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Christine
Member
Member # 8594

 - posted      Profile for Christine   Email Christine         Edit/Delete Post 
As far as euthanasia goes, I'm all for it. Why shouldn't a person get to choose when he or she dies? In the end, it seems to be the most logical thing in the world to be able to choose for yourself. Why should I force a person to go on living? What value is there in that? It seems like a completely selfish thing for me to do.
Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rivka
Member
Member # 4859

 - posted      Profile for rivka   Email rivka         Edit/Delete Post 
So you're in favor of suicide being legal, then?
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Pixiest
Member
Member # 1863

 - posted      Profile for The Pixiest   Email The Pixiest         Edit/Delete Post 
rivka: Why would it be ethical to force someone to live against their wishes? The right to quit, whether it be one's job or their life, is an important one.
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rivka
Member
Member # 4859

 - posted      Profile for rivka   Email rivka         Edit/Delete Post 
I disagree.

And I'll ask you the same question: do you think suicide should be legal? What about if the person is clinically depressed?

Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Pixiest
Member
Member # 1863

 - posted      Profile for The Pixiest   Email The Pixiest         Edit/Delete Post 
rivka: the knowledge that I can quit anytime is of *great* comfort to me.

If a person is clinically depressed, hopefully they'll get help before actually offing themselves. However, since suicide is an common side effect of the treatment to clinical depression, I'm not sure the cure is any better than the disease. At least in that it gives people the get up and go to finally do what they've wanted to do all along.

Besides, how often do happy pills actually fix clinical depression? From anecdotal evidence I've gathered from friends who were on it, it turns you into an appititeless, sexless zombie. Who still gets depressed a lot.

Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rivka
Member
Member # 4859

 - posted      Profile for rivka   Email rivka         Edit/Delete Post 
You're talking to the wrong people.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Pixiest
Member
Member # 1863

 - posted      Profile for The Pixiest   Email The Pixiest         Edit/Delete Post 
rivka: I live in the bay area. Almost everyone I know is on some kind of anti-depressant.
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Christine
Member
Member # 8594

 - posted      Profile for Christine   Email Christine         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
So you're in favor of suicide being legal, then?

This doesn't even make sense to me. Whyever should it be illegal? How would you enforce such a thing? Put my soul in prison for all eternity? Well, some religious people believe that's exactly what happens. What might be the penalty for an attempted suicide? 10-15 years maximum security?

Depression is a disease that carries with it a chance of death. Certainly, this is not the ideal solution, nevertheless when the pain of this disease becomes overwhelming then just as with any other disease (which is given more credit because it isn't "just in the mind") a person has the right to end it. In that case, I would mourn their death as being the result of a terrible disease, rather than accuse that person (as I have so often heard) of being selfish or cowardly.

Legality doesn't even enter into it.

Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
katharina
Member
Member # 827

 - posted      Profile for katharina   Email katharina         Edit/Delete Post 
So we shouldn't bother trying to prevent suicides?
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kmbboots
Member
Member # 8576

 - posted      Profile for kmbboots   Email kmbboots         Edit/Delete Post 
Just like with abortions, it is possible to work to prevent suicide by addressing the causes rather than making it illegal. Probably more effective, too. I can't imagine that the legality of the act is the primary concern for someone contemplating suicide.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Christine
Member
Member # 8594

 - posted      Profile for Christine   Email Christine         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by katharina:
So we shouldn't bother trying to prevent suicides?

Wow, you so completely missed my point I'm not even sure where to start.

But let em try it this way: Do you think we can prevent suicide by making suicide illegal? if so, you've never been suicidally depressed. Take it from someone who has been...it won't work.

Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Pixiest
Member
Member # 1863

 - posted      Profile for The Pixiest   Email The Pixiest         Edit/Delete Post 
kath: What Boots said.

btw, Suicide is mostly legal in the US http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_views_of_suicide but in many places, they can still violate your rights and lock you up if you try.

Also, don't try to kill yourself for insurance. It doesn't work.

Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
katharina
Member
Member # 827

 - posted      Profile for katharina   Email katharina         Edit/Delete Post 
I'm not interested in the illegal part. It's the part where we actually help some people commit suicide and then try to get help for others that bothers me.

Like a physical disability changes a person from someone to help to someone to help along.

Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Kwea
Member
Member # 2199

 - posted      Profile for Kwea   Email Kwea         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by The Pixiest:
Great post Bob!

Tara: There's no point clawing for every last breath of life when all the joy has been sucked out, never to return. This is especially true of catastrophic disabilities and old age.

And Hope is just a lie we tell ourselves to feel better about reality.

I disagree as strongly as possible with the second half of that. Hope IS this reality for a lot of us, and realistic hope is not only worth living for, it makes all the rest of it worth the bad times.

I have hoped for a lot of things....and without hope I would not have achieved any of it. Hope gave me the strength to make at least some of my dreams a reality.

Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Pixiest
Member
Member # 1863

 - posted      Profile for The Pixiest   Email The Pixiest         Edit/Delete Post 
I've no problem with assisted suicide or pulling feeding tubes either.

One of the worst things I can imagine is being in a PVS, yet being fully conscious and unable to move or communicate. Imagine laying there for decades... unable to scratch an itch, cover yourself when you're cold, uncover when you're hot, in pain and unable to tell anyone, express a thought, or even move your head to stop staring at the same boring spot on the ceiling... and not even knowing how many more decades you've got to lay there before sweet death carries you away.

Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Pixiest
Member
Member # 1863

 - posted      Profile for The Pixiest   Email The Pixiest         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Kwea:
I disagree as strongly as possible with the second half of that. Hope IS this reality for a lot of us, and realistic hope is not only worth living for, it makes all the rest of it worth the bad times.

I have hoped for a lot of things....and without hope I would not have achieved any of it. Hope gave me the strength to make at least some of my dreams a reality.

True. Hope builds great things. Las Vegas is built entirely on Hope.

And if you can use it as a psychological trick to help motivate you, great. Just recognize that most of the time, for the big and important things, it's a lie.

Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3   

   Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Hatrack River Home Page

Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2