quote: Actually, killing yourself is harder than it sounds. And I don't just mean the mechanics of it (though making sure you don't fail is tough too. Failure can mean extreme physical damage and an inability to try again. Or worse, Group therapy sessions.) The will power to actually off yourself has been bred out of humanity over time. That doesn't mean people can't do it (because, obviously, they do) just that you can't just pick up a gun, point it at your head and casually pull the trigger. Your lizard brain won't let you. Anyone who COULD do that suicided themselves out of the gene pool long before you were born.
Pix, do you realize that your statements here don't hang together real well? In this pdf document on suicide statistics from the CDC, it says that in 2005 alone approximately 32,000 people died by suicide. Obviously, it either isn't genetic or people are reproducing before they commit suicide.
You also said:
quote:On the other hand, if someone is there holding your hand, maybe you'll decide you want to live. And there's someone there to *ask* if you really want to do this.
It's a nice thought, but it really isn't borne out by facts. The group that's made the news the past few months - Final Exit Network - claims to have assisted about 200 people in suicides using helium-filled plastic bags. Interestingly, not ONE ever changed their mind - no one freaked out from the combination of claustrophobia and suffocation. It lends credence to the claims by Georgia Bureau of Investigation agents that part of the "help" involved holding people's hands down so they wouldn't "accidentally" take the bag off.
A suicide attempt interrupted, with "exit guides" and a person in need of immediate medical attention - could have been messy, couldn't it? Posts: 4344 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:It lends credence to the claims by Georgia Bureau of Investigation agents that part of the "help" involved holding people's hands down so they wouldn't "accidentally" take the bag off.
posted
32,000 is a pretty small number in the grand scheme of things. How many people do you reckon give serious consideration to suicide in any given year? How many people do you think have their finger on the trigger or the pills in their hand, or, in my case, hand on the ignition? Trust me. It's difficult.
As far as Final Exit goes, I wouldn't characterize the entire concept of assisted suicide by one group of people who go around helping *stranger* off themselves. Assistance should come, in ideal circumstances, from someone who cares about you and knows what you need to do, but would be much happier if you changed your mind.
(edited to add: Holding their hands down so they couldn't take off the bag = murder.)
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Again, Pix, it's an interesting conjecture, but for this...
Most people (who are not old, ill or disabled) who tell someone they want to commit suicide get the following reaction from friends:
Your life is worthwhile; I won't help you do that; What are the ways I can help make your life better?
And similar variations on that theme. One of two broad categories of events follow from that:
The suicidal individual gets help, or suffers through, and in the end - one way or another - moves on with living.
Or they go ahead and attempt to commit suicide. There are various reasons for people failing - ambivalence, lack of planning and research, or leaving a chance factor in survival, etc.
What happens when the reaction from a friend is this?
"All that matters to me is that you want to kill yourself and you want me to do it. I'll make sure you aren't alone and you don't screw it up."
Kind of narrows the range of possibilities, doesn't it?
As for killing yourself being difficult, so is living. And supporting someone in the hard work in wanting to live is a helluva a lot harder than supporting someone to kill themselves.
I hear what you say about an ideal world, but I wasn't born on that world and I don't think you were either. I've often wondered what it would be like to live there. Posts: 4344 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I imagine that the conversations that justifiably convince a loved one to assist a suicide are more along the lines of:
"Please, please god, make it stop hurting." "Honey, you just had your morphine. I can't give you any more." Please, please, I am begging you to make it stop hurting."
And those conversations going on over and over again for days or weeks.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
sndrake: You've got a nice little false dichotomy going. A friend would/should try to talk them out of it before offering to help. I would also think the friend would let the person know that backing out at any time would be welcome.
quote: I hear what you say about an ideal world, but I wasn't born on that world and I don't think you were either. I've often wondered what it would be like to live there.
Yeah yeah.. sacrifice the rights of all because a few might abuse it. I hear this argument in a lot of different debates from gambling to drinking to marijuana to SSM. I don't buy it in any of them.
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: sndrake: You've got a nice little false dichotomy going. A friend would/should try to talk them out of it before offering to help. I would also think the friend would let the person know that backing out at any time would be welcome.
What kind of friend would do anything of the sort? Wow, I'm glad I don't know any of your friends.
Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:I imagine that the conversations that justifiably convince a loved one to assist a suicide are more along the lines of:
"Please, please god, make it stop hurting." "Honey, you just had your morphine. I can't give you any more." Please, please, I am begging you to make it stop hurting."
And those conversations going on over and over again for days or weeks.
Again, though, this doesn't jive with information that is actually available. I'll dig out the links tomorrow (try to), but in the case of Oregon and in the case of Kevorkian, pain doesn't come any near the top of the list of reasons people want to commit suicide - it's issues like "fear of being a burden" or "fear of losing autonomy." Pain is used to sell assisted suicide as a policy, but it's not a major reason that gets reported in why people who actually go that route want to kill themselves.
Posts: 4344 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Christine: What kind of friend would do anything of the sort? Wow, I'm glad I don't know any of your friends.
Well, fortunately I don't have any so you don't have to worry about that, thank you very much. (I'm an uncharismatic, personality-less space alien, remember?)
These are hypothetical friends who would be inclined to help with suicide if you needed it. As opposed to strangers that are, apparently, sndrake's assistants of choice.
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
It seems that sndrake's position is that nobody should assist suicide, neither friend nor stranger.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:I imagine that the conversations that justifiably convince a loved one to assist a suicide are more along the lines of:
"Please, please god, make it stop hurting." "Honey, you just had your morphine. I can't give you any more." Please, please, I am begging you to make it stop hurting."
And those conversations going on over and over again for days or weeks.
Again, though, this doesn't jive with information that is actually available. I'll dig out the links tomorrow (try to), but in the case of Oregon and in the case of Kevorkian, pain doesn't come any near the top of the list of reasons people want to commit suicide - it's issues like "fear of being a burden" or "fear of losing autonomy." Pain is used to sell assisted suicide as a policy, but it's not a major reason that gets reported in why people who actually go that route want to kill themselves.
Even if it is only some or even any, it is enough for me to want that right to be available to them.
Again, make them get licenses. From qualified people who can make sure that all other options have been explored and that the person is not being pressured.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Christine: What kind of friend would do anything of the sort? Wow, I'm glad I don't know any of your friends.
Well, fortunately I don't have any so you don't have to worry about that, thank you very much. (I'm an uncharismatic, personality-less space alien, remember?)
Well I must have missed that, because you actually seem to me to be an interesting person. Not so sure about the space alien bit, but hey, this is the Internet so theoretically you could be anyone. Would be pretty cool...I always dreamed of meeting an alien.
Posts: 2392 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well, that's very sweet of you, Thank you. But unfortunately the space alien part is only metaphor.
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
