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Until I see an unedited version, I'm not really prepared to label it anything. Looks bad, though.
Anyway, it's not really an argument against democracy. If the video is actually close to accurate, it's an argument against dumb people.
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Blayne Bradley
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Can you summarize I couldn't take her well intentioned prattle for much longer then a minute.
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In all seriousness, that's the best argument against democracy you've ever seen? You've posted a link to a video of a person who appears to me to have obvious mental problems and possible borderline retardation rambling incoherently at a City Council meeting. Presumably, it is the very remarkableness of her stupidity that prompted the video to be posted in the first place. Probably as a joke. And it makes me more sad than anything. It's honestly a very depressing video, but it has nothing to do with democracy. In every culture and nation in the world, there are people who suffer from mental illnesses. We can't control that. But in a free society, we allow such people to co-exist with us. We can afford to be patient, and polite -- even to people we consider to be 'less than' ourselves.
Surely you can come up with a better argument against democracy than that.
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TL, I seriously doubt she's suffering from any mental illnesses or has borderline retardation. She's just really dumb, and probably nervous about speaking, and potentially drug addled while she's speaking as well.
That said, i noticed she was a Bush supporter...
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Mental retardation is (this will sound insensitive) a condition of being "really dumb". You might as well have said "She's not mentally ill, she's just really crazy."
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Her mental illness is called "being from California." Sounds like a typical brainless valley girl to me.
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Not really, FlyingCow. An overabundance of dumb people is problematic in any system of government. The effects are different if it's a totalitarian regime is all, but for example an overabundance of dumb people is a problem there because it permits greater abuses and more flagrant tyranny than would otherwise be possible.
Technically it's an argument against democracy...it's just that it's also an argument against every other form of government too, really. What's the point of making an argument that's against something but not for anything in favor of it?
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I, too, am frequently disheartened my the foolishness - and often the heartlessness - of the electorate. I would be even more dismayed by trying to determine who is smart enough or good enough to be considered fully human enough to have a say in how they are governed.
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depends on what flavor of dumb they are, doesn't it? I know plenty of really stupid people who are vocal about things they know nothing about.
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We don't have a democracy in this country; we have a republic. This video partly demonstrates why, but it has less to do with IQ points and more to do with simple information. The masses are not informed enough to make good judgment calls on many issues. (Many of our representatives seemed uninformed or misinformed as well, but that's another issue.)
The problem with arguments *against* representative democracies is that they usually fail to come up with anything better. There are weaknesses with every form of government, but until you can come up with one that has fewer weaknesses than the one in which we live I will simply do my best to overcome the weaknesses in our own system rather than rail against it.
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"The biggest argument against democracy is a five minute discussion with the average voter" and "Democracy is the worst system of government, except for all the others that have been tried."
Go Churchill.
But yes, an overabundance of dumb people is a problem everywhere, methinks. Democracy (and our democratic republic) just strives for more empowered dumb people.
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Fortunately in America we have a represenatative republic. When idiots like her become the majority, hopefully the electoral college will choose correctly. What scares me is she is a product of the government education system.
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It is an interesting symptom which relates to my increasing belief that what democracy is really good for is not giving people "a say" but for solving the succession problem which is problematic for so many other types of government.
Or put another, less provocative way, the most beautiful thing about democracy is when one ruling group peacefully completes a transfer to a new group with new ideas and new ways of doing things*, temporarily cleaning out the corruption.
* assuming they actually do new things
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: Fortunately in America we have a represenatative republic. When idiots like her become the majority, hopefully the electoral college will choose correctly. What scares me is she is a product of the government education system.
Do you even know where she went to school? For all you know she was home schooled by ignoramuses.
I'm not trying to take a jab at those who home school, I do believe it can be a viable option for educating ones' children.
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Something else to consider... this is Santa Cruz we're talking about.
It's like Concentrated California Crazy there.
Edited to add: But yeah, unrestricted democracy is crazy. That's why we limit our democratic republic with a constitution. (I just wish they'd follow it.)
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You do realize that in all other forms of government (other than a Theocracy where God does manage to select the right people, or a Meritocracy, where some unbiased way of determining merit is invented,) that um, less than intelligent person has a chance of being placed into a position of power and all of our collective wisdom would have no way of removing her.
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Sometimes I think a democracy of idiots would be better than a democracy of selfish, borderline sociopaths.
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Blayne Bradley
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quote:Originally posted by Darth_Mauve: You do realize that in all other forms of government (other than a Theocracy where God does manage to select the right people, or a Meritocracy, where some unbiased way of determining merit is invented,) that um, less than intelligent person has a chance of being placed into a position of power and all of our collective wisdom would have no way of removing her.
We successfully ousted Palin from Alaska it seems
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Until I see an unedited version, I'm not really prepared to label it anything. Looks bad, though.
Anyway, it's not really an argument against democracy. If the video is actually close to accurate, it's an argument against dumb people.
Yeah, this seems to echo my thoughts exactly. I second this and whatever else Rakeesh has said in this thread.
On Samp's city council link -
What the hell was up with the lady saying "next!" in the ear of that guy who had all that stuff he wanted to say, while the crazy chick is allowed to rant on for minutes.
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They could have been different city councils, different times. City councils don't have endless time and sometimes are rather pressed for it but if you're there at the right time or have budgeted some time or your council is especially timid you can rant about the statist goblins or UFO's or play public affairs improv or whatever for a good long time.
people like this getting to come up and ramble like nutcases are a mentally taxing but essentially necessary part of local governance. "The public have to be allowed a voice" is the most generic way of explaining why it's a good thing overall.
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Hmm. So I learned that the East Coast believes in slavery and that vegetables grow on trees. And land is free. So all in all, that was pretty educational.
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quote:What the hell was up with the lady saying "next!" in the ear of that guy who had all that stuff he wanted to say, while the crazy chick is allowed to rant on for minutes.
it seemed to me that lady saying "next" was actually WITH that guy. Since when the person finally called "time" at the end it was a different person, not visible on camera. maybe they worked out how long he could spend on each number and just tried to fit them all in?
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quote:But yes, an overabundance of dumb people is a problem everywhere, methinks. Democracy (and our democratic republic) just strives for more empowered dumb people.
To me, though, it's just six one way and half a dozen the other.
A greater number of empowered dumb people in a representative government equals a dumber government more prone to abuses of all sorts. A greater number of unempowered dumb people in a non-representative government equals a government less likely to be stopped from abusing its people...and I generally believe that the road to really bad times is a helluva lot shorter between non-representative governments and representative governments. To be fair, though, the road to really good times can be shorter too, just not often traveled.
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I think "this is an argument against democracy" is code for "Everybody check out the stupid person! Hahahahahahaha!! *points and laughs*"
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quote:Originally posted by Dogbreath: Her mental illness is called "being from California." Sounds like a typical brainless valley girl to me.
That's not funny. In fact it's highly insulting.
"Vegetable trees" are insulting to my intelligence.
I dunno, I realize stupidity is a universal disease, but I've had a special dislike of California ever since I first visited. There seems to be a unique blend of arrogance and ignorance I've been unable to find anywhere else - outside of Junior High Schools, maybe.
Most TV shows set there, and pretty much every Californian I've had the misfortune of meeting has done nothing but instill a sense of selfishness and vapidity.
That being said, I'm sure there are plenty wonderful people from California. I've just never met any.
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: I think "this is an argument against democracy" is code for "Everybody check out the stupid person! Hahahahahahaha!! *points and laughs*"
This is what I would assume also. I think given Lisa's history of engagement in political threads most people are jumping to a certain conclusion about the thread title. I'm willing give the benefit of the doubt and assume she was joking.
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That being said, I'm sure there are plenty wonderful people from California. I've just never met any.
I'm sure you have no problem meeting nice people with that attitude.
In the meantime, how about you lay off our state. Nobody here insulted your state or its people- that kind of talk is really not welcome.
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quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: It was kind of funny and not that insulting. I'm a Californian.
If you had said it, I would look on it a little differently. An outsider doesn't get the benefit of the doubt; especially one who is plainly ignorant of what the state is really like, ie: television and LA valley =! California.
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I would have labeled it as a good evidence of the failure of the US educational system, unless the woman is really mentally ill. How could any sane person make it to adulthood in the US believing there was still slavery on the east coast?
[ July 28, 2009, 05:25 AM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
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I'm not certain to what extent folks are just shootin' the sh@# when they say things like 'view this as evidence of...' but the fact is, one stupid lady speaking in public isn't good evidence of anything except that there's one stupid lady speaking in public, without any kind of facts to establish context for us. In fact, it's not actually really good evidence that she's stupid! Maybe she wanged her head really good falling in the shower that morning, or got in a car accident. Maybe she's terrified of public speaking and that renders her cognitive functions, shall we say, diminished.
But her little edited youtube video certainly isn't good evidence of a failure of our public education system, unless that system is to be considered a failure if so much as one stupid person emits from it.
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Rakeesh, you will note that I did say "unless this person is really mentally ill". And I do think that even one sane person who is not severely cognatively disabled making to adult without learning that slavery is illegal everywhere in the US constitutes a level of failure on the part of our educational system.
Also, note that I did not say "public education system" because I did not intend the comment to be about the public schools but rather about all the systems we have as a society (family, schools, chuch, media, etc) for teaching our children.
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Even if she's not actually mentally ill somehow, it's still not 'good evidence' of the failure of the US educational system, Rabbit.
As for her comments about slavery, well...has anyone actually seen the unedited video of her little public speaking Hindenberg?
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Certainly it is good evidence that our educational system failed this woman. Absent any serious mental illness or deficiency, every child in our society should be taught that slavery is illegal everywhere in the US. I think thats a pretty basic standard. I'm not requiring every child to be articulate or to be able to give a decent public testimony, but every single mentally capable child should learn slavery is illegal in the US.
No I haven't seen the unedited video, but the woman says "On the east coast they have slaves and they believe in slavery." I find it difficult to imagine anything that might have preceded this which would change meaning enough to indicate this woman doesn't believe they have slaves on the east coast. Absent some serious mental illness or deficiency, society has clearly failed this woman.
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quote:Certainly it is good evidence that our educational system failed this woman.
That's quite a different thing from saying '...of the failure of the US educational system' though, Rabbit. Unless we're going to say that one sick person dying is good evidence of the failure of modern medicine, I don't see how it's reasonable to say one (possibly) stupid person can be taken, absent any context, as good evidence of the failure of our US educational system.
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