posted
The problem I had wasn't that you used the word fat. It's the right word to use sometimes, after all. The problem is that you then made a stereotypical comment about all fat people being against you. And you continue to go on to claim that we don't understand "skinny people problems."
Well, I guess I don't. I haven't been there and I never will, so I can't empathize. If you want sympathy, you can try to share your hurt in a compassionate way that does not villainize the rest of us.
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posted
And yet, by referring to overweight people as "fat" in your original post, rather than gaining any sympathy for people who have the opposite problem, you alienated yourself, by offending many of the people in this thread. Perhaps a better choice of words would have brought more empathy and less hostility.
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posted
A male friend of mine wore a dress one day when he in college (I think he lost a bet or something). He's a tall guy, at least 6'3, and pretty fit.
Some of the girls he hung around with asked him what size the dress was. He told them it was a 14 and they responded with "Oh....well, you're really tall."
He says that made him feel a little self conscious.
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quote:I think the most offensive thing about your original post is that you referred to yourself as "underweight" but overweight people as "fat." Frankly, it was rude, which is why I believe that it was pointed out that rudeness was unnecessary.
I did not realize that f*t had become a politically incorrect term like n***r and was rude to use even in a general reference. The funny thing is that my overweight friends use the word 'fat' to describe themselves. If I had called myself 'fat', no one would have batted an eye. Maybe it really is like n***, and fat (woops, I should have said overweight) people can say the word but not skinny people. I guess its just considered rude for a skinny person to ever say anything about weight or to be anything but gushingly sympathetic towards people who are overweight. Skinny people don't get the same consideration.
Suppose someone had entered the weight loss thread and said 'I have no sympathy whatsoever for people who complain that they're too fat for x.' Do you think anyone would have shrugged it off as a joke? Do you think the responses would have been less offensive than my response to Orin?
quote:Well, I wouldn't have gone the direction that sarcasticmuppet went with his explanation of your comment, Rabbit, because I would never try to tell you how picnic-y your life has been compared to anyone else's. Nevertheless, I was hurt by your comment. I teetered on the edge of saying anything because I was sure your comment was made out of personal feelings of hurt and was not intended to hurt anyone else, least of all me. But it did hurt me to read it. I'm fat. I've always been fat, even when I wasn't.
Christine, I'm sorry my comment offended you, it was not directed at you or any hatracker (except perhaps Orin). I have never met you and had no idea you were overweight. I have only met a handful of hatrackers and don't remember any of them as being fat. I'm sorry if you took my comment personally, it was not intended as such. I'm sorry if I hit a nerve. You actually did show a great deal of sympathy for Armoth's difficulties in finding clothes that fit and your initial restraint in responding to my post also illustrates an effort to empathize with someone who doesn't share your problem. Thank you, its appreciated.
[ July 30, 2009, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
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I spent most of my life seriously under weight and it isn't anything near the picnic fat people think it is.
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: sarcasticmuppet, I've personally experienced a lot more direct insults, tasteless jokes etc. from fat people in my life than any fat person I know.
If you regularly go around calling them "fat people", I'm not surprised.
Why would you conclude I ever go around calling them fat people?
That fact that I've seen you do it twice in this thread is what makes me think that you might habitually call those who are overweight "fat people".
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quote:I guess its just considered rude for a skinny person to ever say anything about being weight or to be anything but gushingly sympathetic towards people who are overweight.
I really hope that this is over-the-top sarcasm.
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quote:That fact that I've seen you do it twice in this thread is what makes me think that you might habitually call those who are overweight "fat people".
I give up!!! Look at the context. Orin started off by saying he had no sympathy for the problems of thin people. Substitute whatever your problem is into that sentence, and then tell me my response was rude and unwarranted.
I should have never brought it up. I learned a long time ago that even when I was lying in a hospital having seizures because of malnutrition, fat (excuse me I mean 'over weight') people would be unable to show any sympathy for my plight.
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Is it being argued that it is incorrect to call someone a "fat person" as a descriptor? Is the word offlimits?
If so, that's news to me. Seems like an unmarked landmine that Rabbit accidentally stepped on. I hear the word used so often as a self-descriptor that I didn't realize it carried such pejorative impact.
Would obese be preferred? Overweight isn't exactly useful, because while I'm medically overweight most everyone I know would describe me as "skinny" or "thin". Would "severely overweight" be better?
I'm really trying to understand what words are offlimits in the discussion before I wade in.
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quote:I should have never brought it up. I learned a long time ago that even when I was lying in a hospital having seizures because of malnutrition, fat (excuse me I mean 'over weight') people would be unable to show any sympathy for my plight.
You put people in a difficult position here, Rabbit. I would like to sympathize with you for having such difficulties with being under weight, but the hostility and resentment make it difficult to express any. Just the same, I'm sorry your digestive problems were so severe, and that people have been mean to you about being too thin. I think you'll probably get even more sympathy if you find another way to talk about your problems without setting yourself up in opposition to overweight people.
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posted
You certainly did. You may not have called an individual Hatracker fat directly, but you definitely linked a negative trait with every fat person who had ever talked to you.
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: You certainly did. You may not have called an individual Hatracker fat directly, but you definitely linked a negative trait with every fat person who had ever talked to you.
Why is that when I said fat people, the rest of you insist that I intended and 'all' or 'every' in front of it? In the English language when someone say 'Americans are patriotic' or 'Chinese people like to eat at restaurants', its widely understood that they are talking about many or even most but certainly not every single American or Chinese person without exception. That interpretation is reserved for occasions in which people have chosen to justify an offense that was not intended.
Consider the context. If Orincoro had said 'I have no sympathy whatsoever for people who complain that they're too fat for x.' what would you have considered an appropriate response? Would you have taken offense at a response that indicated skinny people needed to have more empathy for over weight people.
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: You certainly did. You may not have called an individual Hatracker fat directly, but you definitely linked a negative trait with every fat person who had ever talked to you.
How is saying that a group of people possess some negative trait equivalent to calling someone a member of that group? I'm not following the logic there.
If you found my comment an attack on you, its because you think of yourself as a fat person. I've certainly never thought of you as a fat person nor have I said anything in this thread or elsewhere on hatrack that would indicate I thought of you as a fat person.
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quote:I should have never brought it up. I learned a long time ago that even when I was lying in a hospital having seizures because of malnutrition, fat (excuse me I mean 'over weight') people would be unable to show any sympathy for my plight.
You put people in a difficult position here, Rabbit. I would like to sympathize with you for having such difficulties with being under weight, but the hostility and resentment make it difficult to express any. Just the same, I'm sorry your digestive problems were so severe, and that people have been mean to you about being too thin. I think you'll probably get even more sympathy if you find another way to talk about your problems without setting yourself up in opposition to overweight people.
Did you sense that hostility and resentment in my first post, or only after I'd been dogpiled on for using the phrase 'fat person'?
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posted
Rabbit, how about you just apologize for labeling all fat people everywhere with the horrible negative trait of not sympathizing with you as much as you feel you deserve?
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posted
I never used the phrase 'all fat people everywhere' and I did not mean to imply 'all fat people everywhere'. I apologize if people interpreted my generalization to mean 'all people fat everywhere.', it was generalization based on my personal experience. I should have made that more explicit.
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posted
Actually, it has a lot to do with how you phrased your first post in this thread. You use the phrase "underweight" to describe yourself because you have a medical condition, and I suspect, because you also have negative associations with the word "skinny" as a result of the teasing you have referenced.
However, despite the fact that many overweight people also have medical conditions and negative associations with the word "fat" due to teasing that they have received, you did not give heavy people the same consideration that you gave yourself.
I am underweight but they are fat. This is how it was read and interpreted by many, whether or not that is what you intended.
Edit: This post was typed and submitted before Rabbit's response above.
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: kat, I never used the word all people everywhere. I did not mean to imply all people everywhere and I appologize if people interpreted my generalization to mean all people everywhere.
Satisfied
This works for me.
BTW, I went back and looked at Orin's post -- the one that you responded to when all this hubbub started. I can see why it offended you. It made me roll my eyes because I knew better. I'd had the false impression that skinny people had an easier time buying clothes before I chose bridesmaid dresses for my wedding. I had 4 girls with vastly different body types....short and fat, tall and fat, short and curvy, tall and thin. It was the tall and thin girl who was the hardest to find a dress for. Not that any of the body types were easy to fit. We all shared our shopping woes and I realized a few things about shopping:
1. Know your body and don't be tempted to buy something just because it's in style.
2. Be willing to spend time and try things on. What looks good on the hanger may not look good on you, not even when you get more practiced at this.
3. Salespeople are trying to sell clothes, not make you look great. Don't ask for their opinion. If you need a second opinion, bring someone with you who will be honest.
4. Don't keep shopping at the same stores if you've had bad luck there. This is especially true of places that have clothing that looks good on you in the store, but doesn't wear well or ends up drifting to the back of your closet fairly quickly.
5. Return to stores and designers that stand up to the test of time.
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quote:Originally posted by andi330: Actually, it has a lot to do with how you phrased your first post in this thread. You use the phrase "underweight" to describe yourself because you have a medical condition, and I suspect, because you also have negative associations with the word "skinny" as a result of the teasing you have referenced.
However, despite the fact that many overweight people also have medical conditions and negative associations with the word "fat" due to teasing that they have received, you did not give heavy people the same consideration that you gave yourself.
I am underweight but they are fat. This is how it was read and interpreted by many, whether or not that is what you intended.
I think you are nitpicking. As I explained earlier, I chose the phrase 'seriously underweight' to make it clear that I was talking about something other than thin and healthy. It was not an attempt to make my position sound more desirable, it was exactly the opposite. Skinny and thin are often perceived as desirable in our culture. I don't consider skinny an insult even though I was teased about it mercilessly. I thought it would be difficult for people to interpret 'seriously underweight' as a desirable state. When I chose the term 'fat people', I was actually thinking not about people who are over weight from a medical perspective but people who see themselves as fat and struggle to loose weight. In my experience, at least some of those people aren't over weight from a medical stand point. But I have very frequently found myself the object of envy from people who struggle to loose weight and I find it rather bizarre when people envy someone for having an incurable disease. When people routinely tell you they wish they had your uncurable disease, its pretty clear they are lacking empathy. When envy keeps you from having sympathy for the legitimate problems of other people, its a very bad thing.
I'm sorry that my wording was so offensive no one could see my point. I must say I was utterly surprised that anyone but Orincoro would take the comment personally. Evidently I am not fully capable of empathizing with people who think they are fat either.
[ July 30, 2009, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: [qb] kat, I never used the word all people everywhere. I did not mean to imply all people everywhere and I apologize if people interpreted my generalization to mean all people everywhere.
Satisfied
This works for me.
Thank you Christine. You have been consistently gracious and obviously do try to empathize with those with a different body type. That was evident even before I made my statement and I'm very sorry you were hurt by it.
It is pretty clear that I don't fully understand how the phrase 'fat people' is heard be those who think of themselves as fat. I'll try to be more conscious of that in the future.
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quote:Originally posted by Armoth: Some of my favorite shirts, like Christine suggested, come from Banana Republic. However, it took a sale and a gift certificate to get me to survive the heart attack of crazy expense of those shirts.
If you sign up to be on the Banana Republic mailing list, they email coupons at least twice a month. H&M is another store that has a slim fit and that is very inexpensive.
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posted
I'm still searching for an acceptable term, or to understand what are unacceptable terms.
"Fat people" caused a stir, and was taken as an pejorative. "Overweight people" suffers from over-generality and a lack of degree.
For those that took offense to the "fat" descriptor... what is the preferred alternative? Significantly overweight? Severely?
What is the appropriate adjective for someone who struggles with being well above average weight and is struggling to lose weight?
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posted
Wow. I seem to have started a full-scale thread drift. I apologize to the OP.
Rabbit, you asked me to explain why I thought your comment was offensive and I told you. It's gone beyond that, but that was the purpose of my post. You got defensive at that point, and I apologize for causing duress. More than anything else I said before, I think I reacted to your very initial statement as something of a "fat people are mean to me because they are jealous", whether or not that was intended (which it seems it wasn't). I opted for the polite-but-curt "that was a bit harsh" post. You were the one who asked me to clarify what I meant.
I can get on a roll with this if allowed, but I won't. Just let it stand that I am very much in favor of body acceptance, nomatter what your size. Fat is a descriptor, not a stereotype.
So, how's about them skinny guy shirts?
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posted
sarcasticmuppet, I asked you to explain why you thought my comment was offense because I really didn't see why what I said was an inappropriate in the context of Orin's original statement. In that context, your explanation of pretty much boils down to, 'I found your comment offensive because skinny people really don't deserve any sympathy from overweight people.' And yes, I found that an extremely offensive thing to say. If what you said is an honest and well articulated explanation of why you were offended, then I don't regret offending you. Thinking that anyone doesn't deserve sympathy for their legitimate problems is just wrong. 'I think my problems are bigger than yours so you get no sympathy from me,' is a rather selfish, unkind and offensive attitude. Perhaps that isn't what you meant, but it is what you said.
We don't have to compete over whose life is more picnicy than the other. It is possible to have sympathy for others even when we don't share the same problems and even when we have bigger problems ourselves.
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