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Author Topic: Public School/Religion Question
romanylass
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I agree with ambyr- not only should schools be an advert free zone in general,I do think that as our society gets more pluralistic we have to be more sensitive to offending people.
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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
,I do think that as our society gets more pluralistic we have to be more sensitive to offending people.
As our society gets more pluralistic, I wish that we'd put a little more effort into not getting offended.
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rivka
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I can't believe you would say such a thing!
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MattP
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:
,I do think that as our society gets more pluralistic we have to be more sensitive to offending people.
As our society gets more pluralistic, I wish that we'd put a little more effort into not getting offended.
I think effort on both fronts would be good. The real crazy is when we get offended at other people's attempts to be sensitive or inclusive.
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Raymond Arnold
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quote:
I think effort on both fronts would be good. The real crazy is when we get offended at other people's attempts to be sensitive or inclusive.
A thousand times this.
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Geraine
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I wouldn't worry about it. If it is what is says, a festival, then that should be it. Whether it is hosted by a church or not shouldn't matter.

The thing is, you have a choice whether to go or not. Seeing a flyer for a harvest festival isn't teaching your children about the Baptist church, nor is it trying to convert them. If the flyer had some religious quotes on it or teachings of the church, then I might have an issue with it.

The LDS church ward I attend here in Vegas has an annual "Trunk or Treat" that the entire neighborhood is invited to every year. People show up, decorate their cars, and provide a safe location for kids to load up on sugar. We have tables set up with free chili dogs and punch for everyone as well. There is nothing religious about it. It is simply an event that is put on so everyone can have a little fun. Heck, my father is the Bishop and he uses latex to make himself look like a creepy 6'4 troll every year and gets a kick out of scaring the pants off kids. Try talking someone into joining the church when your nose is 6 inches long, your skin is green and scaley, and you have red contacts in your eyes! My wife and I go just for that.

I have a feeling this is the same deal. It is probably just an event hosted by the church to provide a safe place for kids to trick or treat.

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neo-dragon
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quote:
Originally posted by Mucus:
neo-dragon: Well, it roughly depends on which affirmative camp you belong in, if you're in the "all fliers should be allowed camp, regardless" then there is no harm. However, if you're in the "fliers should be allowed, except when for a religious service or when proselytizing" then there very well could be harm.

Not by my definition of harm.


quote:
Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:
,I do think that as our society gets more pluralistic we have to be more sensitive to offending people.
As our society gets more pluralistic, I wish that we'd put a little more effort into not getting offended.
I couldn't agree more.
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Belle
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Lots of Christian parents do complain that schools are too secular, and I can honestly say I can see why it has happened. You have to be so careful about what you have students read or study at school.

For example, my state curriculum slots Dickens' A Christmas Carol for 7th grade.

Well, today I find out that one parent is demanding that his son be given a different book because they are Jehovah's Witnesses and do not celebrate holidays. Now I will do it, of course, but it just about doubles my workload. I have to find a new book for him, create a reading guide, come up with reading check questions, come up with an assessment of some type (project or paper), and then create questions for a test. Then, I will have to create a totally different quarerly exam for this student, because my exam will have questions from Chrismas Carol on it. To make matters even worse, he can't be in my room while I'm discussing it, so that means finding some alternative place for him to be during the two weeks we are covering this novel.

Now, given that I am going through all that, I have a pretty strong incentive NOT to cover Christmas Carol next year and just have everyone reading the alternative, safely-secular book. And then, parents will complain that we are taking all references to Christianity out of schools. [Wall Bash]

Sometimes teachers are just caught between a rock and a hard place - we cannot please everyone, and many things are beyond our control.

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Paul Goldner
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That's a freaking idiotic parent.

Look, we KNOW my position on the state being in schools. But A Christmas Carol has literary merit, and, well, yes, it has holidays in it. So do many many many books. My brother freaking taught genesis in an English Class. You just have to approach these things the right way.

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neo-dragon
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Why would anyone complain about there not being enough Christian content in a public school system? I'm starting to think that there's just no pleasing Americans when it comes to religion. Everything is either too much or too little.
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Belle
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Well, I don't agree with his position but I have no choice but to respect it. I checked with our counselor who confirmed that he is in the band, and was not able to play any Christmas music last year.

It seems extreme to me - we don't use the novel to proselytize, and seems to me just because you don't celebrate something doesn't mean you cannot learn about it. I don't celebrate any Jewish holidays, or Islamic ones, yet have no problem with my kids learning about those holidays in school. But again, as teacher, I have to respect the parents' wishes in this and give the child an alternate book.

Plus, what's going to happen when this kid goes to college? And he is very bright - reads extremely well and excels in my classes so he could be very successful in college. Or, what happens in the workforce? He can't go through life avoiding all contact with anything that suggests a holiday. *shrug* Not my call. I do what I'm told.

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Paul Goldner
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"Well, I don't agree with his position but I have no choice but to respect it."

You should look into that. You're required to make reasonable accomodations, I'm sure, but this isn't really a reasonable request. You're first year teacher, right? That might play into the decision, I suppose, depending on how laws work in your state.

*shrug* Things are different in every school district. If it were me, I'd ask around quietly, because there's no way I'm adding that much work for one student, given how much work I have anyways.

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Belle
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My administration has already told me I have to comply with his request. As a first year teacher, I was unsure so I asked.

My sister-teacher across the hall (she teaches the same subject and grade level) told me to use one of the books from my reading intervention class...because it has a lot of curriculum that accompanies it and assessments already done for me. I may do that - I'll pick one of the books at the highest reading level which is grade-level and go with that. Still have to make another copy of the quarterly exam and find a place for him, though.

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Paul Goldner
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Ugh. Sorry Belle. At least you've got some resources.
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Mucus
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quote:
Originally posted by neo-dragon:
quote:
Originally posted by Mucus:
neo-dragon: Well, it roughly depends on which affirmative camp you belong in, if you're in the "all fliers should be allowed camp, regardless" then there is no harm. However, if you're in the "fliers should be allowed, except when for a religious service or when proselytizing" then there very well could be harm.

Not by my definition of harm.
Exactly.

I'm just answering the question you seemed to be posing which was why you couldn't see any harm. Well, its not that you see different things, but that you disagree on the definition of harm.

quote:
Originally posted by neo-dragon:
I'm starting to think that there's just no pleasing Americans when it comes to religion. Everything is either too much or too little.

Well, the answer to this is that there are two separate non-overlapping sets.

It is perfectly consistent if you understand that the group that thinks that there is usually too much is usually distinct from the group that thinks there is too little.

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DDDaysh
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I know that some parents wish public schools were really Christian schools and taught Jesus and God, etc, BUT

Many parents that complain about taking "Christmas" out of schools aren't complaining that their kids aren't getting taught Christian beliefs in schools. What they're really complaining about is the fact that everything that just might have SOME Christian tie to it seems to be getting systematically eradicated in schools - even more than things that may have Hindu, Islamic, Jewish, or any other group ties. Christmas, for instance, is a national holiday celebrated by many MANY families that have never even been in a church. Christmas is even celebrated by families with ties to other religions. Both my Muslim coworker and my Hindu friend have always celebrated Christmas with their families. Thus, it seems pretty stupid that schools can celebrate Columbus Day without problems, they can celebrate Valentine's Day without problems, but if they have a "Christmas" tree they run the risk of getting in big trouble! Many parents aren't really wanting their kids to get bible lessons, but they are objecting to people being more offended by "christian" ties than the ties of any other culture or religion.

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Griffin
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quote:
Originally posted by neo-dragon:
I say teach your kids about religion, tell them what you believe/don't believe, explain that other people believe different things and let them learn and decide for themselves rather than worrying about every subtle influence they may be exposed to.

Well said.
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Darth_Mauve
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quote:
Thus, it seems pretty stupid that schools can celebrate Columbus Day without problems, they can celebrate Valentine's Day without problems,
Actually, I've heard of teachers not being allowed to celebrate either. Columbus Day is not something the Native American's see as worthy of celebrating, and St. Valentine was--well--a Catholic saint, so that runs into trouble as well.
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DDDaysh
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St. Valentine may have been a Catholic saint, but cute little cupid baby definitely wasn't! ;-)
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Farmgirl
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quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
Try reading the "/" as "and/or", which is what I think the intent was.

We have reached the limits of my ability/willingness to speak for Farmgirl, and she doesn't post here very often. *shrug*

You are exactly right, rivka, and my apologies for making a comment them bopping out of the thread for several days - I no longer read Hatrack daily.

I did not mean to sound like I equated them (although some people do, but not me). I meant either/or OR and/or. Secular does not mean anti-Christian.

Also, I wasn't saying I agree with the people who think that way, nor do I think the opposite. I was just saying I am more accustomed, in my circle of people, to hearing the opposite of what Christine was originally posting.

(my own personal belief is that if parents want a specific theology OR philosophy/worldview taught to their kids, then instead of requiring or demanding it of public schools, they should just home school their kids so they can teach them whatever viewpoint they want them to have. And that goes for both religious views and non-religious views) [Smile]

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steven
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quote:
Originally posted by Farmgirl:
quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
Try reading the "/" as "and/or", which is what I think the intent was.

We have reached the limits of my ability/willingness to speak for Farmgirl, and she doesn't post here very often. *shrug*

(my own personal belief is that if parents want a specific theology OR philosophy/worldview taught to their kids, then instead of requiring or demanding it of public schools, they should just home school their kids so they can teach them whatever viewpoint they want them to have. And that goes for both religious views and non-religious views) [Smile]
Yeah, I think I don't like the idea of people going off into the woods and raising little Eric Robert Rudolphs. I don't like that at all. It's not much better than the Islamic madrasas.

Note that I am not saying all religious schools and home schools are raising future terrorists. However, I refuse to accept wholeheartedly the idea that home schools and religious schools are a panacea. If kids are raised in crazy religious extremism, guess what? They're more likely to be dangerous crazies.

Please don't take this post with the dickish tone that it seems to have. I just wanted to be really clear and succinct, and the wording that resulted doesn't exactly drip with love. Sorry about that. [Smile]

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rivka
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And of course, all homeschools and religious schools teach "crazy religious extremism". [Roll Eyes]
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steven
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quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
And of course, all homeschools and religious schools teach "crazy religious extremism". [Roll Eyes]

IF you think that's what I said/meant, please reread this paragraph (which I quote for your convenience)--

"Note that I am not saying all religious schools and home schools are raising future terrorists. However, I refuse to accept wholeheartedly the idea that home schools and religious schools are a panacea. If kids are raised in crazy religious extremism, guess what? They're more likely to be dangerous crazies. "

Now, Rivka, if I were saying what you SAID I said, then the first sentence there would read "I am saying" instead of what it actually reads. As well, the last sentence might read "always going to become" instead of "more likely". You see the difference, riiiiiiight, Rivka? I think you do, and I think that you are so addicted to the eyeroll smilie that you can't stop yourself. [Smile]

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rivka
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Please prove that there is a high correlation between attending homeschool or religious school and becoming a "dangerous crazy". Something more than your say-so, if you please.

Failing that, you were implying what I said you were. Only the matter of degree differs.

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kmbboots
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You do know that there are a lot of religious schools, right? Lots of them. Notre Dame for example. Roughly half of children in private schools go to Catholic School. There are hundred of Catholic Universities. Not what most would worry about being crazy religious extremists.
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steven
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I don't need to prove that madrasas produce terrorists, or at least, people who would support terrorism. If I do, we are worlds apart, and need not continue discussing these issues.

As far as something closer to home goes, I imagine that the Christian Identity movement (with which Eric Robert Rudolph was at least tangentially associated) are big homeschoolers. They are also big terrorists and criminals. Take a look at the Wiki for the Christian Identity movement.

What about Warren Jeffs? I'm not trying to rile the Mormons here, but man oh man, is he a good example of my point. He may not be a terrorist, but he's not exactly a fine, upstanding pillar of society.

Shall I go on? My point was not (and it has never been, if you feel like reading my old posts about homeschooling ) that homeschooling is, in and of itself, a bad thing. My point is (and has always been, IIRC) that homeschooling and religious schooling are intensifiers. If the parents/teachers are extreme about something, there is an excellent chance that the kids will be at least as extreme, and sometime more so. This isn't always the effect that is going to make the world a safer place for anyone.

I'm not anti-homeschooling. I think FG's endorsement of it was way too much of a blanket endorsement, and I don't think her post was well-thought-out. She may have a more nuanced attitude toward it than her post showed, but I doubt it, given her YEC beliefs, and other beliefs.

It's nonsense to say I'm anti-homeschooling. I get all my raw dairy products from families who homeschool, and I let Skyler spend time with them whenever she wants. I just realize that homeschooling can definitely produce kids that don't have a place in the larger world, and the friction between these kids and that world can sometimes make a mess.

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kmbboots
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Steven, I think you have one or two examples of extremism and are using that to colour the vast majority of religious schooling which is not at all extreme.
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steven
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It colors itself. I didn't have to cherrypick too awful much, or too awful hard.

I'm not saying public school is always the best answer in every situation. I had a teacher who went to a Catholic high school because she said she would have had to carry a knife to school to defend herself at all the public schools around. Woo hoo for public schools!! Not. Yeah, public schools are not all getting the job done.

The question is, though, on a larger scale, do we abandon public schooling, and let our descendants deal with that, or do we try to make the public schools better? On a larger scale, I think I'm firmly for the second option. In individual cases it's good to be flexible.

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Amilia
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Just for the record, there isn't any love lost between the Mormons on the board and Warren Jeffs. FLDS =! LDS
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steven
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quote:
Originally posted by Amilia:
Just for the record, there isn't any love lost between the Mormons on the board and Warren Jeffs. FLDS =! LDS

Yes, I'm familiar with that particular mathematical equation. However, several Mormons here on Hatrack got their feelings all kinds of hurt when we discussed the reaction of Texas child protective services to the FLDS ranch situation, back a year or two ago. I ain't trying to step on Mormon toes. [Big Grin]
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by steven:
It colors itself. I didn't have to cherrypick too awful much, or too awful hard.

Nonsense.

And I notice we still have only your word to go on.

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DDDaysh
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Such Hostility!

Still, I think you're missing a rather large point Steven. "Religious Extreme" schools (or homeschools) may produce some scary people, but that doesn't mean that regular religious schools do. Normal religious education, of any type, doesn't severely warp a person's sense of existence. A catholic school in New York, or a Baptist school in Kansas, or KQ's homeschooling curriculum (just to pick a convenient example) - NONE of those educational methods are even remotely close to what was happening at the FLDS ranch. To even try and make the cases parallel is wrong, even ridiculous.

Besides, if a kid has a religious nutcase for a parent, Public School isn't going to save them!

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steven
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quote:
Originally posted by DDDaysh:


Besides, if a kid has a religious nutcase for a parent, Public School isn't going to save them!

Fortunately, Earth has you, wonderful YOU to decide who is a religious nutcase, and who isn't, thus saving the Earth from children being educated by religious nutcases.

Do you see the catch there? That someone has to judge who is a nutcase, and that people don't agree 100% on who is and isn't?

The point being, while I can't STOP people from homeschooling, I would prefer they didn't. The public schools work better if we are all putting our energy into them, versus hiding our kids away, leaving them to maybe (or maybe not) develop actual social skills. I have similar, though not as strong, feelings about religious schools. I think that, generally speaking, with some exceptions, parents who send their kids to religious schools would serve their kids better by spending those thousands of dollars a year on tutoring and extra-curricular activities. As far as wanting to keep STDs and drugs away from your kids, I understand that. However, is it not just as good to educate your kids about sex and drugs, thus giving them the tools to successfully deal with temptation, versus keeping them in the dark?

Again, I'm not saying it's all black and white. There are public schools that I wouldn't dare send Skyler to, for a variety of reasons, from violence to poor teaching. OK, those are the main 2. However, not all public schools are bad. I'm going to say that I think most homeschoolers have a less nuanced view of public schools than I have of homeschools. I'd say the same of parents that send their kids to religious schools. Yeah, I think I'd say that.

Flame away.

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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by steven:
I'm going to say that I think most homeschoolers have a less nuanced view of public schools than I have of homeschools. I'd say the same of parents that send their kids to religious schools.

This one you have already disproved, so I'm not even going to bother to ask for evidence.
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steven
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quote:
Originally posted by rivka:
quote:
Originally posted by steven:
I'm going to say that I think most homeschoolers have a less nuanced view of public schools than I have of homeschools. I'd say the same of parents that send their kids to religious schools.

This one you have already disproved, so I'm not even going to bother to ask for evidence.
Oh please, sister. [ROFL]

I see homeschooling for what it is: an intensifier of whatever the parents bring to the process. I also see that, generally speaking, homeschooling is very weak in the areas of match, science, and history. It can actually be stronger in the area of reading/writing. Christopher Paolini is an example.

Now, math isn't a big deal. You can teach math pretty quickly. I used to teach SAT prep math, and it's a snap compared to trying to get a student's verbal score higher. However, science and history, I can't say. Particularly if the homeschooling involves Young Earth Creationism or other such stupidity, I worry that undoing such harm might be a lot, LOT more problematic. I could be worried over nothing, but, nevertheless...

It does bother me that so many homeschoolers seem to think that state-mandated standardized testing is useless and/or a waste of their time. No, it isn't. Sadly, the homeschoolers that need such testing the most are the ones farthest back in the woods, hiding out, refusing to even let the state know they have children of school age. And yes, such people exist. They seem to find the Native Nutrition Yahoo group a wonderful gathering place to talk about their crazy conspiracy theories, and about the wonders of homeschooling. Feel free to ask them about the wonders of not vaccinating, not getting your kid a Social Security Number, etc. They'd love to tell you aaaaalll about it, as well as how Obama is a Muslim space alien who will rape your daughter. LOL

I will finish with a story of my best friend. I know I always tell this one in homeschooling threads, but it really proves my point. My friend actually has his Master's in Geography from VA Tech, and he has run several state level political campaigns. However, until age 9, he could barely read. Why? His mom homeschooled him until age 8, and she would only use the Bible to teach reading. It doesn't work so well, my friends. Ironically (and here's the funny) his Mom now has her Master's in reading instruction, and is the reading coordinator for the entire school system in Forsyth County. She's very smart, and a great teacher. She taught 5th grade for about 20 years, and was a principal for 3 or 4 years. However...

Again, sadly, the homeschoolers who need help the most are the ones least likely to use it and/or ask for it.


So, to sum up, I disagree strongly with blanket endorsements of teh homeskoolin'.

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scholarette
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There is some evidence that home schooled kids do better then non home schooled kids, even in math. However, the study I read doesn't try to eliminate other factors. In the study, home schooled kids tended to come from wealthier homes with better educated parents.
http://epaa.asu.edu/epaa/v7n8/
I am slightly biased. The only person I know in real life who home schools is awesome and there is no doubt her kids are doing better with her then they would in public school. Her kids are geniuses and the school expected them to go at the same rate as everyone else.

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Christine
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Wow. I was just wondering if schools should be sending home flyers from churches. I didn't mean for it to get all kinds of crazy in here.

I've been away for a long weekend so I haven't read all of the responses as closely as I normally would have. But anyway, I'm thinking there are more important things to worry about. MUCH more important things...

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Farmgirl
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quote:
Originally posted by steven:
I'm not anti-homeschooling. I think FG's endorsement of it was way too much of a blanket endorsement, and I don't think her post was well-thought-out. She may have a more nuanced attitude toward it than her post showed, but I doubt it, given her YEC beliefs, and other beliefs.

*laughs*

No, Steven, I had no more nuanced attitude that what I blatantly said. The older I get, the wiser I get, the more I believe public school just isn't the very best option for a kid - ANY kid of any belief system.

Notice that I originally said
quote:
if parents want a specific theology OR philosophy/worldview taught to their kids,
I was not just talking about religion. I was talking about belief systems of any kind. If an atheistic parent freaks because their child "might" be touched by religion at school, then perhaps they should shelter them at home so they would possibly come into contact with crazy believers.

If they are so scared of just the idea of a school group attending an event at a church, or being the same room with someone saying a prayer, then maybe public school just is too wild of an environment of different worldviews for them.

If someone is fanatically vegan (to the point of thinking everyone needs to be) then maybe they shouldn't be thrust into the public school system with all those meat eaters. OR they are avid followers of PETA and they shouldn't be put in that horrid high school biology dissection lab!

I mean -- surely they won't have to learn to live with varying beliefs in the real world. once school is over and they are grown up.

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DDDaysh
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So, you're saying that because some parents abuse homeschooling, you'd prefer no one to have that option? Am I understanding you correctly Steven?
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steven
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quote:
Originally posted by DDDaysh:
So, you're saying that because some parents abuse homeschooling, you'd prefer no one to have that option? Am I understanding you correctly Steven?

I'll have to think about that. I don't think a hard-and-fast rule should be applied, but...I honestly don't know how to handle the fact that the craziest, most dangerous people are also often the ones most likely to homeschool. That's an act of terrorism/crime just looking for a place to happen. But, maybe the people of this country need a few more Ruby Ridges, etc. before we wake up and start finding ways around this type of stuff. I don't know.
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mr_porteiro_head
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I'd think that somebody with your... unconventional opinions about food and nutrition would be more wary of labeling others as crazies.
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romanylass
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I am trying to come up to a response,steven, but words fail me. I homeschool, and know people from across the spectrum, and even though I may not, for example, agree with how all of them teach science, no one I know is raising terrorist crazies. Including me. The only time I have seen kids " not being prepared to take their place in society", their parents had ulterior motives for keeping them home. (ie, to babysit a younger sib). And yes, I think there should be a way, such as testing, to weed those kids out.Oh, and BTW, both my kids who have been tested have always scored above level in everything, including math and science.
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Geraine
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quote:
Originally posted by steven:
quote:
Originally posted by Amilia:
Just for the record, there isn't any love lost between the Mormons on the board and Warren Jeffs. FLDS =! LDS

Yes, I'm familiar with that particular mathematical equation. However, several Mormons here on Hatrack got their feelings all kinds of hurt when we discussed the reaction of Texas child protective services to the FLDS ranch situation, back a year or two ago. I ain't trying to step on Mormon toes. [Big Grin]
Every LDS person I knew agreed with Child Protective services going in there. I think it was the right thing to do.
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Belle
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I am a public school teacher who supports parents rights to homeschool and thinks that for some families, homeschooling can work well. Notice I said some.

I've seen homeschooling succeed spectacularly. I've seen it fail miserably. I believe parents have a right to educate their kids themselves and I wish them luck - I hope they are the ones who succeed and not the ones who fail.

Thing is, homeschooling is not now and never will be an option for the vast majority of families in this country. It is not an option for the single parent who must work to support his/her family. It is not an option for the family where both parents must work to keep food on the table. It's only an option for those wealthy enough or at least comfortable enough to have one working spouse and one that can devote his/her time exclusively to their children's education. That is not most American families.

Public education is still the best option for most American children. The school where I teach is certainly not the best in the world and it has its problems, but it is a haven where kids can come and spend the hours between 7 and 3 and know that no no one will beat them, no one will allow anyone else to hurt them, and they will even be fed breakfast and lunch - completely free if they can't afford it. There are adults in the building that care about their welfare and want them to be successful. That is not necessarily something they ever see at home.

One of my students is homeless right now. His family is living in a shelter. One has a home, but mom and dad couldn't pay the water bill this month and he has no running water at home. His clothes haven't been washed in weeks - they have caked dirt and food on them and he smells terrible - I had to go to the counselors and they are getting social services involved. Another of my students sleeps in my class everyday because his mother works nights and he has to cook dinner and care for his siblings every night. He's 13.

For my part, I believe in public education. It isn't perfect - far from it - but it is all many kids have.

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steven
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Belle says it well. [Smile]
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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
The school where I teach... is a haven where kids can come and spend the hours between 7 and 3 and know that no no one will beat them, no one will allow anyone else to hurt them
I'll bet you try your best, but I doubt that's true for all your students.
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Belle
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I guess I should amend that and say no adult will beat them or hurt them.

Unfortunately, you're right that it is too true that kids do hurt each other and in the school where I teach sometimes those assaults are pretty serious. We do get the offenders out as quickly as possible - I have a student on his way to alternative school right now for attacking another kid in the bathrooom.

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romanylass
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I very much agree with Belle too. I'm grateful the public schools are ther for those who need them.
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Sala
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I've witnessed everything Belle said in her last two posts, and agree withwhat she said, too. But in my own school. With fourth graders. I'm really grateful for public schools, too.
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Teshi
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I believe that one-on-one or one-on-two is by far the best method of teaching children. Anyone who's worked with kids in class, groups and one-on-one can tell you that. Kids alone are better behaved, more intelligent, more focused, more interested in the world, more able to complete work. For kids alone you can zero in on their difficulties and interests-- and of course this is going to work better.

However, I also believe in public schooling. Not only for the reasons Belle has outlined (and not so dramatic either-- I've worked with kids who come from reasonably well-off, stable families whose parents are totally checked out of their children's education and/or well being). But also for the reason that I believe I learnt some valuable skills in school, even as I lost out on some others. I was somewhat socialized and I can guarantee that wouldn't have happened at home. In a best case scenario, regular (public or private) schoolers learn to choose friends, learn to deal with people who aren't friends, learn to learn from teachers who don't have enough time for just them). These are useful skills, because the world is a bit like that.

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