posted
When I first saw the thread title, I was afraid it was going to be one of those "Let's pull up some hateful-or-violent sounding snippets from the Old Testament and use it to bash Judeo-Christian faith!" Glad to see it ain't.
I like the lion-tail/fox-head quote but my fave is still probably "Lord is my Shepherd." Not a very unique or original pick but I love that psalm.
Posts: 132 | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
Gentleness and kindness are lost on Lisa, in any discussion on these areas. Do you disagree? To be more clear--in any argument with Lisa in these areas, be mean, be mean often, and be mean early...no need to worry that you're taking the low road, Lisa will go lower, no matter what.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
No, you started a thread a few days ago called "Why is steven..." and something insulting, which I won't repeat. You deleted it, after being asked, but it pretty much ruffled my feathers re: you. Even at my worst, I manage to avoid threads calling a specific poster an insulting name in the title. So, yeah, I'm miffed.
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posted
Steven, You have every right to be angry at Lisa, but as my mother says, "consider the source".
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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No, I'm not letting this go. I made an incredibly good, but harsh, point about the behavior of many Chicagoans. Notably, nobody who actually lives around (but not actually in) Chicago leapt to its defense. Why? Because Chicago's citizens, in a general sense, are not known for their politeness, honesty, or general human goodness. One thing I will say is that I don't think you're the scamming criminal type that Chicago is famous for. Rude, abrasive, yes...almost unbelievably. A con artist, probably not, if I had to guess. But, Lisa, you can achieve more...or at least, the potential exists, in a general sense, in the human design. I don't know if you yourself will ever learn to care about polite discourse, but many people can and do engage in such.
It's not like I don't know what it means to really care about an idea. That doesn't mean that anyone here finds it enjoyable when you
1. Get insanely rude when your beliefs about Ayn Rand and Orthodox Judaism are challenged
2. Refuse to examine those beliefs in the cold light of day.
I'm all for enthusiasm. I'm also all for evidence. IOW, put up or shut up, or at least be polite.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Notably, nobody who actually lives around (but not actually in) Chicago leapt to its defense.
For the record, I leapt to the defense of Chicago, as did at least two other people who don't live in Chicago but do live near it. I think it's one of the best cities in America.
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posted
Here's a quote from another famous Jew. "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous."
Posts: 1794 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
It's sad to me that in a thread discussing such a powerful, wisdom filled book, people can so utterly fail to approach the suggestions in front of their eyes.
Prov 3:27-28 is one of my favorites, "Withold not good from them to whom it is due, when it is in the power of thine hand to do it. Say not unto thy neighbour, Go, and come again, and tomorrow I will give; when thou hast it by thee."
The prose is not the most elegant, but the concept is one I think would turn away so much ill feeling.
quote:Well, to be accurate, steven isn't part of my people.
That so nicely sums up why I do not appreciate conservative religions. They have such wonderful, caring, and loving views to be expressed between each other, and the rest of us are dreck.
At best we are tolerated or pitied.
At worst we are tortured and slaughtered.
Some seek to convert us. If they stopped at just offering up truth that would be nice. Instead the most fervent use what ever means necessary including all the tools of the demons their faith supposedly protects us from--Nagging, lies, threats, torture, bribery, politics.
(Obviously not in Lisa's case. She does not seek converts to Judaism. She may suggest that the more liberal of her people go back to the correct ways, but she realizes that their backsliding is their business, not hers. I am referring to conservatives in all faiths, including atheists.)
I do apologize for bringing this good thread down.
Posts: 1941 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Well, to be accurate, steven isn't part of my people.
That so nicely sums up why I do not appreciate conservative religions. They have such wonderful, caring, and loving views to be expressed between each other, and the rest of us are dreck.
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Here is one of my favorites.
quote:Thou shalt not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself:
Well, to be accurate, steven isn't part of my people.
That's exactly the kind of rationalizing that underlies all crimes against humanity and genocides.
Not really. The fact that that particular statement only refers to fellow Jews doesn't mean that it's okay to harm or be obnoxious to people who aren't Jewish.
In steven's case, I'm just not sure he isn't a bot someone programmed to flip out whenever I post.
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At least it is honest. How many American Christians truly think of Iraqis (for example) as "their people"? And we are supposed to.
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Don't have to go that far, Muslim Americans aren't exactly in an awesome position either (or Chinese Americans before 9/11 switched it up for that matter).
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quote:Not really. The fact that that particular statement only refers to fellow Jews doesn't mean that it's okay to harm or be obnoxious to people who aren't Jewish.
No really, Lisa. Behind every crime against humanity, there is a rationalization that allows the perpetrators to consider the victims to be less than fully human. It doesn't really matter why you don't consider Steven to be a real person. The problem is that you justify your own meanness by denying his humanity. I would think that Jews, of all people, would appreciate the danger in that kind of rationalization.
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quote:Originally posted by Mucus: Don't have to go that far, Muslim Americans aren't exactly in an awesome position either (or Chinese Americans before 9/11 switched it up for that matter).
I didn't say it did have to go that far. I just picked a fairly easy example.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: At least it is honest. How many American Christians truly think of Iraqis (for example) as "their people"? And we are supposed to.
And I'm fairly confident that this is one of the key reasons that so many Americans are able to justify killing so many Iraqis. Which was my original point. When people draw lines that say "these are my people who I must love and forgive, those are not my people -- so I have no obligation to love and forgive them", they have started down a path which if followed to its conclusion leads to mistreatment, oppression and even genocide.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Much as I hate defending Lisa when she's being deliberately obnoxious, she never said that she doesn't "consider Steven to be a real person"; she said he is not a Jew. (Which, AFAIK, is accurate.)
She also clarified -- as she should have initially, if she felt the need to argue the point at all -- that it "doesn't mean that it's okay to harm or be obnoxious to people who aren't Jewish".
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: I didn't say it did have to go that far. I just picked a fairly easy example.
I know. I just picked an example that was a bit closer to home to show that the problem isn't just "out there." Edit to add: Assuming that it is a problem, anyways
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
Lisa likes to speak things on her terms, as bluntly as she possibly can, and leave it to the rest of you to understand why she is a moral person.
She sees her word as true, and it is up to us to reconcile.
In the above examples, i may be wrong, but I detected her resentment at verses of the Bible and Torah concepts praised like the wisdom of quotes that get embroidered onto pillows in antique shops.
Each phrase of Torah has been poured over with centuries of scholarship and tradition, and to have them analyzed in pop-forum can be grating to someone who is immersed in a culture of through Torah study.
However, that isn't an excuse to be elitist and condescending.
It's a very insensitive and lazy strategy. V' ani gam choshev sheze chilul Hashem norah.
I also ask that you not stereotype conservative religionists based on Lisa's actions. That's just poor thinking.
Posts: 1604 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: Much as I hate defending Lisa when she's being deliberately obnoxious, she never said that she doesn't "consider Steven to be a real person"; she said he is not a Jew. (Which, AFAIK, is accurate.)
She also clarified -- as she should have initially, if she felt the need to argue the point at all -- that it "doesn't mean that it's okay to harm or be obnoxious to people who aren't Jewish".
Actually, she said
quote:In steven's case, I'm just not sure he isn't a bot someone programmed to flip out whenever I post.
Which unless there is some meaning of "bot" with which I am not familiar, does indeed imply that she doesn't believe he is a real person.
I am sufficiently familiar with Judaism to know that few if any respected Rabbi's would justify mistreatment of a non-Jew based on the fact that they "were not one of my people". But if Lisa was not saying that she felt no obligation to treat steven politely because she didn't consider him one of her people, then I am at a complete loss to understand her response.
I'm also sufficiently familiar with Lisa to know that she feels no obligation to treat me with anything short of open contempt and that she feels no obligation to apologize to people at hatrack for extreme rudeness. I don't know how she rationalizes her incivility and don't really care. But I am confident that any philosophy which justifies harming or being obnoxious to other human beings is morally bankrupt.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Armoth: V' ani gam choshev sheze chilul Hashem norah.
I also ask that you not stereotype conservative religionists based on Lisa's actions. That's just poor thinking.
Agreed on both points.
Rabbit, I think the bot comment was sarcastic. Regardless, I already made it clear that I disagree with her behavior.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Lisa likes to speak things on her terms, as bluntly as she possibly can, and leave it to the rest of you to understand why she is a moral person.
Armoth, perhaps you can explain to me how someone who treats others with open contempt should be considered a moral person.
Lisa isn't simply blunt, she is deliberately rude and makes the vilest and most insulting accusation to anyone who questions her personal sacred cows.
quote:I also ask that you not stereotype conservative religionists based on Lisa's actions. That's just poor thinking.
I try very very hard not to do this. I have known enough Jews in real life to know that Lisa's rudeness is not the rule. I am familiar enough with rabbinical commentaries to know that many of her claims are at a minimum controversial within Judaism and that her behavior here at hatrack is not consistent with most schools of Jewish thought. Still, I must admit, that Lisa has managed to lower my opinion of Judaism as a whole. That is something that I sincerely regret but is none the less true.
The fact that you and rivka make excuses for her when she behaves with such incivility doesn't help. I appreciate your desire to be loyal to one of your own, but it does muddy the waters. It would go along way for me if you would condemn her incivility rather than trying to explain it.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
I don't think either of us is making excuses for her. I have explained (this time and many others) why some of the things she says are essentially correct, although not adequately explained or taken out of context.
That is not the same as defending her behavior, which I have not done.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: She also clarified -- as she should have initially, if she felt the need to argue the point at all -- that it "doesn't mean that it's okay to harm or be obnoxious to people who aren't Jewish".
I didn't clarify that before, because I assume that it's a given. Frankly, I don't care if steven is Jewish or not. Well, let me clarify that. I hope he isn't. But I'd react the same way to him if he was.
He's a brat. "In any argument with Lisa in these areas, be mean, be mean often, and be mean early". Gah. I mean, that's like saying, "Step on my head". So I stepped on his head. It was what he wanted, and I was happy to oblige.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: But if Lisa was not saying that she felt no obligation to treat steven politely because she didn't consider him one of her people, then I am at a complete loss to understand her response.
Ein bayshan lamed. If you're at a loss, you can always ask. Granted, it's easier to just assume, and you dislike me anyway, but don't use your lack of understanding as an excuse for your behavior.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Nothing in my post was an excuse for her. The little bit of Hebrew was a very harsh critique of her. The reference to her morality is that she perceives herself as moral.
Lisa is lazy. She is very well thought out, and passionate about what she believes in, and if she believes you are wrong, she will simply tell you that you are without making the effort to come to know you, to meet your mind, and to guide you to her perspective.
I don't think I have every argued against anyone on this forum. From my perspective, it always productive to try and understand someone rather than to vilify them.
I have no respect for Lisa's rudeness.
We were all attracted to this forum by the same man who created Ender, and The Speaker for the Dead. I prefer to understand and to love.
Lisa is a rough person, I'd really like to get to know why. She seems really jaded, and I don't know what did that to her. But people aren't born that way, and brands of Judaism don't make you that way.
Rabbit, I appreciate your honesty, but your post made me very sad.
Posts: 1604 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: I don't think either of us is making excuses for her.
But you are. Both of you. Look at your selves. You repeatedly offer a rephrasing or interpretation of what she says that gives it a less offensive spin. "She was sarcastic", "She was blunt", "She was essentially correct". You rephrased "Steven isn't one of my people" to "he's not a Jew". Perhaps your interpretations are correct, I'm not arguing that. In all cases, the way you rephrase or interpret her statements are less abrasive than what she actually says. And whether its intended or not, that comes off as excusing her by saying "she didn't really mean it that way."
quote:I have explained (this time and many others) why some of the things she says are essentially correct, although not adequately explained or taken out of context.
I appreciate that, but you should be aware that it very often seems like you are make excuses for rude behavior when you do it. Believe it or not, you have not made it clear to me that you think her behavior is unacceptable as a Jew.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: Armoth, perhaps you can explain to me how someone who treats others with open contempt should be considered a moral person.
I can think of six people on Hatrack who I treat with open contempt on a fairly regular basis. In four of those cases, it's in response to their determination that because I hold views they disagree with, it's okay for them to treat me rudely. You're one of the four, Rabbit. Another is obviously steven.
Actually, in the case of one person on the list, it isn't so much contempt as the feeling that he honestly can't hear anything that isn't as blunt as he is.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Armoth: Lisa is lazy. She is very well thought out, and passionate about what she believes in, and if she believes you are wrong, she will simply tell you that you are without making the effort to come to know you, to meet your mind, and to guide you to her perspective.
QFT on all counts. The world is full of people who do what you're talking about, Armoth. I don't have the patience for it, myself.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I don't understand what we are supposed to do Rabbit?
I believe in the same thing Lisa does. She comes, claiming to represent Judaism, and behaves like a jerk.
Twisted within the truisms she makes about Judaism is her jerkiness.
Now I have to come, and since I can't reject the whole thing, because much of what she says IS correct, though taken out of context or poorly explained, and explain. I need to say, Lisa was a jerk, but here's what's true about what she said.
She put us in a really bad position, and I think it's fair to ask you to see that, even though you are righteously angry/bothered at Lisa. Please don't allow that to cloud your opinion of Rivka or myself, and recognize the position that we need to take here.
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