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Feel free to use this as a repository for terrible things you've seen on youtube that you want to discuss(though I have qualms about being the thread starter for such a unhappy and negative experience).
Someone in Asia has figured out a way to deep fry a fish so that it remains alive, through the cooking process...and while you eat it. I couldn't even finish watching the video.
I think more than the disgust at what was being done, was the excitement of the people watching this fish trying to breathe and taking so much general pleasure in this experience. I wonder if they would have the same enjoyment if they had a live chicken or pig laying on their plate moving around as they bit chunks of it off.
On the other hand, maybe if they made all meat eaters watch their food die slowly as they ate them we'd have less meat eaters! So there's that...
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posted
*shudder* Thanks for the warning and not just providing a link. I could only watch 2-second snippets.
I have no problem eating meat. I think torturing an animal while you are eating it is beyond horrific.
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Though I'm a vegetarian I have no theoretical problem with eating meat given certain conditions. But like you say, this is just beyond cruel.
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Oh, I saw this at EastSouthWestNorth earlier so there's a bit more background on it there. The speakers are Cantonese (tourists, I would guess from the conversation and their unfamiliarity with the dish). http://www.zonaeuropa.com/200911b.brief.htm#014
posted
I think there are legitimate questions about how much different life forms are capable of suffering. But the expression on that fishes face looked like it was suffering to me.
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TomDavidson: Well, the Chinese food critic seems to be accusing the chef of a psychological imbalance.
In the video, the closest Western equivalent would be "I dare you." There are at least two younger males who are splitting it and a pretty horrified younger women who probably won't. There's an older woman who directed the hit and probably introduced the dish to the others.
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quote:On the other hand, maybe if they made all meat eaters watch their food die slowly as they ate them we'd have less meat eaters!
Watching their food slowly die as they slaughtered it didn't seem to put people off from eating meat in the past.
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There was more of a necessity in the past for meat eating. We also had a much healthier relationship with our food in the past.
Do you really think if people had to watch a cow get slaughtered before they were able to eat their McDonald's hamburger that at least some percentage of people wouldn't stop eating meat, or cut down on their meat consumption? It's not just the slaughtering of the animal today, it's the process that leads up to that slaughter as well that I think turns people off the more they find out about it.
Anyway, that was a side comment, I'm not here to convert anyone to vegetarianism.
Our relationship with fish in this culture is interesting. I think it's the only animal that we both keep as pets and eat(not counting those who are raised on farms who might consider some of their livestock as pets).
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I think that there is an enormous difference between recognizing the necessity of slaughtering animals for food and reveling in it.
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Strider: Rabbits and snakes would also qualify. Certain insects are borderline as would certain kinds of small bird (as in we eat a species that is reasonably similar to one that we keep as a pet).
As for the question as to whether it would affect meat consumption. I doubt it. Even in North America, we often have wet markets where fish and lobsters have to be killed in front of the customer before being cooked. This is actually a selling feature.
(On the other hand, I guess it could be possible some might be more disturbed by having to see a mammal killed rather than just a vertebrate)
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: I think that there is an enormous difference between recognizing the necessity of slaughtering animals for food and reveling in it.
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Mucus, where do you live again? I don't know that I've heard of anyone eating snakes or rabbits in America. Though that would certainly qualify if it was widespread.
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quote:There was more of a necessity in the past for meat eating. We also had a much healthier relationship with our food in the past.
Do you really think if people had to watch a cow get slaughtered before they were able to eat their McDonald's hamburger that at least some percentage of people wouldn't stop eating meat, or cut down on their meat consumption? It's not just the slaughtering of the animal today, it's the process that leads up to that slaughter as well that I think turns people off the more they find out about it.
For some context, our family raises, slaughters, and butchers all of our own meat.
It hasn't cut down our meat consumption by all that much, but it has changed how we think about it.
I know a lot of people here in the US who eat rabbit. For those wanting to raise their own meat, it's an extremely practical animal, especially for those living in the city.
Also, in rural America you'll find a lot of people with pet goats.
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quote:Originally posted by Strider: Mucus, where do you live again? I don't know that I've heard of anyone eating snakes or rabbits in America. Though that would certainly qualify if it was widespread.
Seriously? You don't know anyone who's had rabbit? Guess you don't know many hunters. Growing up in central PA, many of my friends and their parents who hunted often had rabbit.
Snake, I think is more of a western US thing. My dad had some waaay back when when he was in San Diego.
Posts: 1295 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote:There was more of a necessity in the past for meat eating. We also had a much healthier relationship with our food in the past.
Do you really think if people had to watch a cow get slaughtered before they were able to eat their McDonald's hamburger that at least some percentage of people wouldn't stop eating meat, or cut down on their meat consumption? It's not just the slaughtering of the animal today, it's the process that leads up to that slaughter as well that I think turns people off the more they find out about it.
For some context, our family raises, slaughters, and butchers all of our own meat.
It hasn't cut down our meat consumption by all that much, but it has changed how we think about it.
Do you mind if I ask what your meat consumption actually is? Multiple times a day? Every day? A few times a week?
I think if more people did what your family does we'd have a much better relationship with meat in this country. From the treatment of the animals, to the carbon footprint in raising livestock.
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quote:Originally posted by Strider: Mucus, where do you live again? I don't know that I've heard of anyone eating snakes or rabbits in America. Though that would certainly qualify if it was widespread.
Seriously? You don't know anyone who's had rabbit? Guess you don't know many hunters. Growing up in central PA, many of my friends and their parents who hunted often had rabbit.
I guess I'm just sheltered.
Here's my question though, are the same people who are hunting and eating rabbits also keeping rabbits as pets? Are people with pet rabbits also eating rabbits on the side. I think what i find interesting about fish in particular is someone will have a fish tank at home, and then go out for a dinner and eat fish.
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: Does the background info explain why the H*LL they're so freaking sadistic?
I'm afraid not.
我不管多麽好吃， 吃了那種還活著的動物真惡性了。
I know it's kinda rude to type in a language few will understand but it was the words that came to my mind. I'll translate if anybody really cares.
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No, BlackBlade. You can type in a non-English language on a subject for which there is a lot of interest and I'm sure there won't be any curiosity at all about what you were saying. Posts: 3275 | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Strider: Here's my question though, are the same people who are hunting and eating rabbits also keeping rabbits as pets? Are people with pet rabbits also eating rabbits on the side. I think what i find interesting about fish in particular is someone will have a fish tank at home, and then go out for a dinner and eat fish.
Hmmm... None of them owned rabbits as pets that I recall.
I had pet rabbits for awhile. I've never eaten rabbit, but I would try it given the opportunity.
I've owned lots of pet fish and also eat a lot of fish. I would not eat a fish that was still flapping around and breathing (even if I was starving and had no way to cook it, I think I'd at least kill the thing first).
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quote:Originally posted by MattP: No, BlackBlade. You can type in a non-English language on a subject for which there is a lot of interest and I'm sure there won't be any curiosity at all about what you were saying.
Oh man you zinged me good. Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
We own pet chickens. I have butchered and eaten one of them. I don't mind butchering, but it's not a very economical way to get meat and I'm not very good at it. I doubt I got more than 2/3 of the usable meat off of the rooster I butchered.
I don't think I'd have any trouble eating dog or cat, provided it actually tasted good.
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Godric, I thought about it a bit more and it does seem that most fish owners don't make close connections to their fish but enjoy them more for the aesthetic qualities of having a fish tank. I imagine someone would think differently about eating a dog for dinner if they have a pet dog at home, because at that point it just becomes, "well, it's okay to eat dogs i don't know".
edit - thanks for sneaking in and proving me wrong Matt! Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
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My mom's friend raises sheep and she'll eat lamb, as long as she didn't raise the actual animal. But she keeps a few for pets and the rest go to farms or slaughter houses.
My uncle does the same with his rabbits. There are a few his girls were close to growing up but the rest ended up on the dinner table.
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It seems to me that if you're going to call aquarium fish the same thing as edible fish, then people who keep a cage of finches or canaries and eat chicken would fall under the same category.
Like Porter, we raise most of our own protein. I don't have any difficulty eating meat that I've raised and slaughtered myself. I do agree that many people have been so sheltered from food production that they probably would become vegetarian if they had to do what we do in order to eat meat.
posted
I may often be suckered into clicking on links that I'm sorry for afterwards, but I'm never watching that video in the OP. Just hearing about it horrifies me.
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Back when I was a young, naive missionary in Portugal, my companion and I were invited to the home of a sweet older couple who lived in a fairly rural area for a Sunday dinner.
We enjoyed meeting all their cute animals, including the rabbits. And a couple of hours later had one of the ones we'd been petting and admiring for dinner. We were clueless, it had never occurred to us we were petting our dinner!
Mind you, it was delicious. My companion couldn't really appreciate it but I guess I'm a bit more pragmatic. I still remember the lovely chunks of meat in a yummy brown gravy. What I remember more is the honor I felt that that sweet humble couple gave us something that I'm sure was very valuable to them.
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quote:Seriously? You don't know anyone who's had rabbit? Guess you don't know many hunters. Growing up in central PA, many of my friends and their parents who hunted often had rabbit.
I would like to throw in my two cents as a random person who doesn't know anyone who eats rabbit (at least recently).
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I've raised rabbits as pets and have eaten rabbit. In fact, in 4-H, there was always a rabbit sausage stand just outside the small animals barn (where the rabbits were exhibited).
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quote:Originally posted by theCrowsWife: It seems to me that if you're going to call aquarium fish the same thing as edible fish, then people who keep a cage of finches or canaries and eat chicken would fall under the same category.
Like Porter, we raise most of our own protein. I don't have any difficulty eating meat that I've raised and slaughtered myself. I do agree that many people have been so sheltered from food production that they probably would become vegetarian if they had to do what we do in order to eat meat.
--Mel
You're right, I would put them all in the same category.
I want to make it clear, I'm not judging people for eating meat. My vegetarianism is my own choice and I'm not trying to push that on anyone in this thread and my purpose with the OP was only to discuss what I thought was a really horrible video. While many of my problems with meat eating have to do with the subjective conscious experience of the animal and the harm done to it, many of my problems have much to do with the current system of meat production in this country. I applaud people who bypass to a large extent this system.
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The Queen of Men dislikes eating meat with bones in it, on the grounds that it reminds her that food doesn't originate in supermarket shelves.
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(Following is along the lines of the first video so watch at your own discretion) Freshest fish in the world
This isn't as bad as the first video but I don't get why they keep the fish's head alive. They could just kill it and it wouldn't change the taste at all (at least it wouldn't change the taste of anything besides the head). The thing is, I like raw fish and the fish (besides the head) actually looks very tasty. I would never pay for something like that though unless the fish were actually killed quickly and as painlessly as possible.
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quote:Our relationship with fish in this culture is interesting. I think it's the only animal that we both keep as pets and eat(not counting those who are raised on farms who might consider some of their livestock as pets)
I don't think you are making a fair assessment there. You are contrasting "fish" with "cows" and "chickens" when they really should be compared to birds and mammals.
People don't generally eat their pet fish and they don't keep cod, salmon and tuna as pets. In western culture, people eat chickens and turkeys and keep pet parrots and cockatiels. People eat cows and sheep, and keep pet dogs and cats. How is that different from fish?
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: I don't care if it really was suffering or not. That was utterly barbarous.
I'm curious, if the animal wasn't suffering and we could somehow be certain of that, why would you find it "utterly barbarous".
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quote:Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head: Because the whole appeal is that it seems like it is.
Agreed. I think that enjoying torturing something -- even if that something were a realistic simulation -- is barbaric.
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That was maybe the most disturbing thing I've seen in a long time.
It's not just that it's awful to watch the fish suffer, whether it actually is or not, it appears to be, and that's close enough. But there's also the enjoyment of the guests. And there's the fact that some sick weirdo actually say down and thought up a process to cook a living creature to the point where it's consumable but not dead, and thought this would be a great seller.
The number of processes that had to be completed to bring about that video is shocking and disturbing.
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Strider: Toronto. Although, the conversations moved on I've heard of the rabbit thing from European Canadians (oh and 'wabbit stew') and the snake thing from Asian Canadians although I suspected there would be a North America equivalent.
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: I'm curious, if the animal wasn't suffering and we could somehow be certain of that, why would you find it "utterly barbarous".
Restaurant at the End of the Universe style?
quote:Originally posted by Threads: They could just kill it and it wouldn't change the taste at all (at least it wouldn't change the taste of anything besides the head). The thing is, I like raw fish and the fish (besides the head) actually looks very tasty. I would never pay for something like that though unless the fish were actually killed quickly and as painlessly as possible.
If it was about taste, they wouldn't leave the head alive because usually in Chinese or some other Asian cuisines the head is actually considered to be a very good part to eat. This is actually kinda wasteful from a taste perspective.
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quote:Our relationship with fish in this culture is interesting. I think it's the only animal that we both keep as pets and eat(not counting those who are raised on farms who might consider some of their livestock as pets)
People don't generally eat their pet fish and they don't keep cod, salmon and tuna as pets. In western culture, people eat chickens and turkeys and keep pet parrots and cockatiels. People eat cows and sheep, and keep pet dogs and cats. How is that different from fish?
I'm not exactly sure what you're asking me here Rabbit. Are you asking me why we don't eat dogs and cats in western culture?
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No, she's saying that "people eat fish and also have pet fish" is analogous to "people eat mammals (cows) and also have pet mammals (dogs)".
You're drawing the lines in different places. A goldfish has about as much in common with a sardine as a cow has with a dog.
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quote:A goldfish has about as much in common with a sardine as a cow has with a dog.
I agree with that statement, but not in the way you meant it.
I think i'm actually being pretty consistent where I draw my own personal line. I DO think it's odd that we have arbitrarily defined which animals we have for pets and love and take to the vet and get really sad when we hear a news story about them being treated inhumanely, and which ones we eat and don't care what happens to. So I drew my line at don't eat any animals.
I thought the fish example was an interesting oddity worth pointing out, but you're right that there are many significant differences between pet fish and the fish we eat, and when looked at that way, the difference in the mammals we do or do not eat is just as worthy of bringing up.
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