quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Samprimary: [qb] But I like putting them on top better...
I know your comment was half joking, but I hope you recognize how counterproductive that attitude is if you are serious about become a good writer.
The first step to becoming a good writer is recognizing that it isn't about what you like. As a writer, it is your responsibility to communicate with your reader. Its not like a conversation where the social relationships create an obligation on the part of both the speaker and the listener. The reader does not have any ethical obligation to try to understand you or even to read you at all. You have to make the the reader want to read your writing and if your writing style is difficult to follow -- fewer people will want to read.
Of course no writer will be understandable to everyone. You need to pick a target audience. The kind of writing that is likely to be both interesting and understandable to English professors, is quite different to what is likely to be both interesting and understandable to the average high school student. You might get lucky and write something that will randomly hit some niche, but you are much more likely to succeed if you know what that niche is in advance and work hard to target that niche.
Good writing is about connecting with the audience and not simply doing what you like.
[ December 04, 2009, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
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Blayne Bradley
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quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
quote:Originally posted by rivka:
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Btw, anyone know if Ishmael could be Jewish name?
Exceedingly unlikely.
Why?
To clarify, the reasons why it might not be likely could very well be the reason why the character is named such.
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quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Samprimary: [qb] But I like putting them on top better...
Good writing is about connecting with the audience and not simply doing what you like.
I don't know... sometimes the best art comes from a person doing what they like and what they are passionate about... Dir en grey comes to mind. (some of their "fans" complain so much about how they have evolved, but i think they are brilliant) Someone should do a bit of both, because I'd be lying to myself if i didn't write something i'm passionate about.
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Syn, I think Rabbit is just approaching the nature of art from the perspective of an observer rather than a creator- she is a scientist after all. I like to think that as a music theorist I get to play both sides of the field on this subject. I think that while the artist can be aware to a greater or lesser degree of the medium's potential for communication, the existence of that potential will shape the work of art, if it is done with skill, into an artifact comprehensible to any observer.
I think art done in a vacuum, with total lack of external consciousness, would be so devoid of outward influence that it wouldn't even appear to be art. Why mimic or listen to other communicators if one does not intend to also communicate? For instance, if a person writes a journal in which they truly wish only to communicate with themselves, then nothing stands in the way of simply scratching the paper with a pencil in a way pleasing to the writer. Nothing stops the writer from simply thinking quietly to herself without writing anything at all. Art is defined by purpose, and the purpose of art is expression through a medium of communication. The only thing, I think, that humans do not do with any trace of artistry is think. Everything else bears traces of communication and sharing of one's self through some cultural or biological lense.
That said, this comes from a person who cannot imagine committing his own creative energy to something that he would never intend to share. I end up withholding the larger part of what I create, but my intention is never to create art for myself- I consider my aesthetics to be appeals to the sensibilities of others, rather than perfect representations of my aesthetics. A perfect representation of my own aesthetics only goes on in my own head.
Then of course you can't escape that some writers who develop fan-hate communities are doing exactly the opposite of simply ignoring their fans. Their transformations can feed off of that enmity as well- I remember specifically latching onto a specific aesthetic choice several years ago specifically because a self-described "serious" composer had scoffed at it. He is a friend of mine, but I didn't want him as a fan of my music- I felt that I didn't want to be owned by his tastes. So there's another possible explanation of an artist's real intentions.
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Exactly why I said "unlikely" instead of simply "no".
Blayne, Yishmael was the son of Avraham (Abraham) whose lineage did not become the Jewish nation. It would be almost as unlikely as calling a Jewish child Esav (Esau). Although Dobie pointed out one famous example, it's far from recent (try ~2000 years old) and I cannot think of ANY recent (within 500 years) examples.
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Blayne Bradley
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Okay this actually fits with how I am picturing the story thus far, basically someone who was Observant probably wouldn't name their child Yishmael, but say it was a Soviet bureaucrat who didn't really care would just flip through the Torah find it as being related to Isaac, think its a common Jewish and give the child the name. This I think would be consistent with how I am currently picturing the backstory for the protagonist.
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My parents grew up in Russia and, although they weren't observant, because they were Jewish underwent a lot of persecution and suffering.
That they overcame it, and found peace in America is one of the most meaningful stories in my life, and inspires me greatly.
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: Blayne, why would a Soviet bureaucrat name their child something biblical at all?!
I don't buy it.
It's complicated, a Soviet Bureaucrat isn't naming HIS child but naming an orphan child who had no name but identified as being Jewish. There is a deeper reason but its plot important.
The way it would be explained to the character later in his life is this: His mother was a resident of a closed city who was a technician but no apparent father but due to unfortunate complications died in child birth but the child survived born 2038, the bureaucrat assigned to his case checked the residence permit identified her ethnicity as Soviet Jewish (or the equivalent) and named the child a Jewish sounding name off the top of his head. From there he was assigned to an orphanage until an aptitude test at the age of 7 determined he is qualified to enter into Soviet Military Youth Officer Training Center (think of it as the Soviet equivalent of Battle school) where he is later recruited into the KGB.
And then in 2059 the novel begins, with Ishmael at 21 years old. Of course that is the cover story as told to him, there's a deeper reason but for now the above is consistent for that State officials would tell him is in the reports.
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Just because he's Jewish doesn't mean they'd give him a bilibical name. To the contrary, most of the Russian Jews I know are named Anatoly or the like.
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: Just because he's Jewish doesn't mean they'd give him a bilibical name. To the contrary, most of the Russian Jews I know are named Anatoly or the like.
OT, But I love Russian names. Especially Dmitri which is what I shall name my first son.
Also, I am putting the quotes on the bottom. See?
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: Just because he's Jewish doesn't mean they'd give him a bilibical name. To the contrary, most of the Russian Jews I know are named Anatoly or the like.
OT, But I love Russian names. Especially Dmitri which is what I shall name my first son.
quote:Originally posted by rivka: Just because he's Jewish doesn't mean they'd give him a biblical name. To the contrary, most of the Russian Jews I know are named Anatoly or the like.
There IS a deeper reason why they would choose it, but can't really say because it is kinda plot important.
But my impression is that Russian Jews could have biblical first names and Russian last names, like Isaac Asimov.
The idea is that his name is meant to be somewhat unique, there's two reasons why hes named Ishmael, 1) because of the cover story outlined above and 2) for a plot significant reason that does make sense but is still somewhat from the perspective of the character who named him but kinda still somewhat whimsical although there is a to my mind a good reason. But kinda don't want to share it to keep the surprise a well, surprise should I finish it and you read it.
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I get that you want to use the name and nothing I can say will change that. But it's odd that you bring up Asimov, whose parents were distinctly and deliberately Jewish -- they spoke Yiddish. Very different than your character's situation.
Your name choice does not make sense in the context you have given. *shrug* Why ask for an answer you plan to ignore?
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: Just because he's Jewish doesn't mean they'd give him a bilibical name. To the contrary, most of the Russian Jews I know are named Anatoly or the like.
OT, But I love Russian names. Especially Dmitri which is what I shall name my first son.
Also, I am putting the quotes on the bottom. See?
No you're not.
Well,on top I meant. But on topic, sort of, I want to at least try to complete a full first draft of a novel I want to write. I've been working on this thing for a decade now, developing it, the characters, struggling.
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Blayne Bradley
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quote:Originally posted by rivka: I get that you want to use the name and nothing I can say will change that. But it's odd that you bring up Asimov, whose parents were distinctly and deliberately Jewish -- they spoke Yiddish. Very different than your character's situation.
Your name choice does not make sense in the context you have given. *shrug* Why ask for an answer you plan to ignore?
I kinda think your being a tad bit unfair, I am trying to come up with something plausible not ignoring your advice, and as a result came up with a story that to me sounds plausible. Sure it may not be likely but is it plausible? What situations would need to occur to make it more likely or plausible in your view? The best I can say is that Ishmael is kinda needed as a name for the symbolism of the Isaac-Ishmael duality but I don't think I should say much more then that.
Would it help if I establish if the bureaucrat under question is simply misinformed and thinks all Jewish names are biblical names? Or would making the bureaucrat Jewish himself be more plausible? Remember this is just for the cover story, the real reason is something of a state secret.
Although this does give me an idea, the character could find out that something is odd with the official reports of his birth simply because being named a biblical name doesn't make sense? Does that help?
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You are trying to make your choice work despite my answer, which is a different thing.
Again, no it is not plausible. Anyone who cared enough to pick a Jewish name would not pick Ishmael. And someone who didn't care enough to know that would just pick Anatoly or Dmitri.
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Now suddenly I want a list of Jewish and Russian names.
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Blayne Bradley
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Unless the person being a bureaucrat is expected to pick a name he thinks is Jewish due to regulations, which I know assuming the Soviet Union still has a policy of Russificiation in this future wouldn't make sense but in my timeline a fictional character who is Jewish becomes Premier/General Secretary instead of Khrushchev, his name is Isaac Pavelivich Rozhdestvenski my settings equivilent of Peter Wiggin in terms of ambition and genius (hint, both characters are linked), as time goes on Russian chauvinism is toned down for policies that are more likely to maintain the loyalty of the different republics.
But I think I settled on a solution that takes your advice into account with my plot critical reason that I can't really state beyond that the characters in question are linked and this is important for the story.
Basically the cover story as I stated which as you said doesn't (or shouldn't?) make sense is a story that the authorities tell Ismael when hes young, but when he's older and starts discovering his belief in Judaism along with other clues going on at the same time questions the cover story as inconsistent which leads him to the next part of the story and uncovers a conspiracy, which him at its center.
Drama, politics, war, intrigue, trying to get a story that blends them all together.
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Blayne Bradley
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quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: Now suddenly I want a list of Jewish and Russian names.
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Unless the person being a bureaucrat is expected to pick a name he thinks is Jewish due to regulations, which I know assuming the Soviet Union still has a policy of Russificiation in this future wouldn't make sense but in my timeline a fictional character who is Jewish becomes Premier/General Secretary instead of Khrushchev, his name is Isaac Pavelivich Rozhdestvenski my settings equivilent of Peter Wiggin in terms of ambition and genius (hint, both characters are linked), as time goes on Russian chauvinism is toned down for policies that are more likely to maintain the loyalty of the different republics.
First of all, that should never have been one sentence. Second of all, in writing a good rule of thumb is that if a long and slightly defensive explanation of any particular small detail of the story is needed to explain that detail, one should either explain it within the text, or drop it. If you ever write a book, and if anyone ever reads it, this particular detail will be lost. Trust me- even your explanation is trying of my patience.
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You will need more than this resource to correctly decline Russian names properly, should you have the desire to do so. In Czech I respond to no less than twelve possible monikers.
Also, this in no way constitutes a list of names.
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Blayne Bradley
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Its explaining within the text would be explained when it is pertinent to explain it. For either the sake of the reader or the character, for example being an story of alternative history each detail would be explained separately. Such as when there was a different Premier then historical it would be explained easily and early by seeing statues and other evidence of a remaining cult of personality and the character in question remarking or casually mentioning it.
It only seems a long and defencive argument because I am still formulating it and been going back and forth over several posts discussing it and only with half the details available the rest I wish to keep a surprise. In the course of the novel the revealing of pertinent information would be much more organic and better explained as you would be in the perspective of the character and be in a better position to examine it.
Here it is just preliminary concept trying to work out the kinks.
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Blayne Bradley
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro:
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: Now suddenly I want a list of Jewish and Russian names.
You will need more than this resource to correctly decline Russian names properly, should you have the desire to do so. In Czech I respond to no less than twelve possible monikers.
Also, this in no way constitutes a list of names.
I see you didn't see the list of sources I posted earlier, also this I should note is counter to the advice already given, write the story first and don't get caught up in the research.
For coming up with Russian names and monikers the above list I would think for a cast of 12 regular characters and 30 recurring ones and 40 additional one off ones the list would be sufficient to come up with most of them.
But nevertheless I plan for many major characters to have last names derived from Siberian towns.
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: In the course of the novel the revealing of pertinent information would be much more organic and better explained as you would be in the perspective of the character and be in a better position to examine it.
I don't believe you. I'm not being nasty, you understand, but I don't believe this is true. Given as I've read thousands, literally thousands of things you've written over the years, I consider myself, among several others on this forum, an expert on your writing (as much as anyone can be such). And I tell you that I consider the likelihood of this statement being true is, well, small.
I state this only to encourage you not to write with this intention. Be pedantic, be precise, over-explain everything. Then, when you're done, look at all the stuff you have to over-explain, and go back and just cut it out- you will be cutting out the 1337-geek factor you have inserted into your writing because for some deep-seated reason, you believe it has to be there. This, by the way, is why I don't write novels. So I think I speak from some experience.
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Blayne, that might be a good addition to the other books I suggested to you on sake.
Thanks for the head's up rivka. It's on my shopping list!
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Blayne Bradley
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro:
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: In the course of the novel the revealing of pertinent information would be much more organic and better explained as you would be in the perspective of the character and be in a better position to examine it.
I don't believe you. I'm not being nasty, you understand, but I don't believe this is true. Given as I've read thousands, literally thousands of things you've written over the years, I consider myself, among several others on this forum, an expert on your writing (as much as anyone can be such). And I tell you that I consider the likelihood of this statement being true is, well, small.
I state this only to encourage you not to write with this intention. Be pedantic, be precise, over-explain everything. Then, when you're done, look at all the stuff you have to over-explain, and go back and just cut it out- you will be cutting out the 1337-geek factor you have inserted into your writing because for some deep-seated reason, you believe it has to be there. This, by the way, is why I don't write novels. So I think I speak from some experience.
What is this leet geek factor you speak of that would somehow be pertinent? Sure I want characters to make cracks about cult scifi as a means of showing how their culture has changed over the years as a means of lampshade hanging but I'm not sure what you mean otherwise.
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BTW, good luck with this. It takes some guts to spill your ideas out for everyone to see; I hope that you take the cynicism and sarcasm you've been given with a grain of salt. There's some good advice here; strip the attitudes, and just apply the lessons.
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Blayne Bradley
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quote:Originally posted by Scott R: BTW, good luck with this. It takes some guts to spill your ideas out for everyone to see; I hope that you take the cynicism and sarcasm you've been given with a grain of salt. There's some good advice here; strip the attitudes, and just apply the lessons.
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: What is this leet geek factor you speak of that would somehow be pertinent? Sure I want characters to make cracks about cult scifi as a means of showing how their culture has changed over the years as a means of lampshade hanging but I'm not sure what you mean otherwise.
Yeah, don't hang lampshades. Don't derive surnames from Surbian towns. Don't make cult scifi references, especially as 'means of showing' anything. You don't understand Russian culture that well. I say this from the point of view of someone who should by all rights understand Russian culture a lot better than you do, and who doesn't believe he understands it very well at all.
I just think, knowing you, and knowing everything I've read about this so far, that this is going to be a laundry list of "wouldn't it be cool" Blayne moments. Which is great, sitting around with friends, or whatever. If you put it all in an novel, you're going to be disappointed when people hate it.
As I've long thought, honestly, the best thing for you Blayne is to move to China or Russia for a couple of years and just learn to drop practically everything you think you understand about foreign cultures. Otherwise, everything you say about them is always going to come out like a geek-boy comic book fantasy.
It's that or write geek-boy comic books.
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Blayne Bradley
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Thanks but no thanks. This is I think what we'ld call nonconstructive criticism "I claim to know better then you so don't bother".
Now that you've found out about tvtropes.org try not to go overboard.
This advice is somewhat on par with warning Reagan that he is going to be shot, or that Sega risks losing it's place in the video game console market.
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quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Thanks but no thanks. This is I think what we'ld call nonconstructive criticism "I claim to know better then you so don't bother".
Seriously.
Yeah, Blayne. I think you shouldn't write a novel. I think you should get a girlfriend and a real social life, actual "Real world" experience, as in that which exists outside your apartment, get friends who don't treat you like shit, and stop living in a fantasy world revolving around the idea that you're an untapped genius, and maybe, just maybe, then you will actually think well enough of yourself to act in your own best interest, rather than the constant willful self-destructing that you share with here because you know that the people here will give you ten more good reasons why you shouldn't do stupid things that you will decide to do anyway, and you can make it that much bigger of a F*** YOU to the world outside your own skull. Years and years of this Blayne. Years and years of experience with you tell me exactly how your novel is going to turn out. And you know it, and everybody here knows it, and will try anyway. And that's sad, for everyone involved.
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What? He can write a novel if he wants to. Then he can put it aside, do all the stuff you said and go back and rewrite and rewrite and polish it.
And I need to do a first draft.
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Blayne Bradley
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro:
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Thanks but no thanks. This is I think what we'ld call nonconstructive criticism "I claim to know better then you so don't bother".
Seriously.
Yeah, Blayne. I think you shouldn't write a novel. I think you should get a girlfriend and a real social life, actual "Real world" experience, as in that which exists outside your apartment, get friends who don't treat you like shit, and stop living in a fantasy world revolving around the idea that you're an untapped genius, and maybe, just maybe, then you will actually think well enough of yourself to act in your own best interest, rather than the constant willful self-destructing that you share with here because you know that the people here will give you ten more good reasons why you shouldn't do stupid things that you will decide to do anyway, and you can make it that much bigger of a F*** YOU to the world outside your own skull. Years and years of this Blayne. Years and years of experience with you tell me exactly how your novel is going to turn out. And you know it, and everybody here knows it, and will try anyway. And that's sad, for everyone involved.
You don't frequent Sakeriver right? Right, so you wouldn't know then that I I've been recently diagnosed with PDD-NOS, I'm incapable of having a normal social life.
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[/qb][/QUOTE]You don't frequent Sakeriver right? Right, so you wouldn't know then that I I've been recently diagnosed with PDD-NOS, I'm incapable of having a normal social life. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Really? I suspect I might have Asperger's, but I have no way of knowing as I haven't been diagnosed. I do have social anxiety disorder though, which makes sense, as people are incredibly scary.
I sort of hate being social... for the most part.
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Blayne Bradley
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Its the hermit crabs, they don't want you to leave.... so they're secretly controlling your mind.... Making you stay and do weird things like singing off key karoke.... *shudder*
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quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: You don't frequent Sakeriver right? Right, so you wouldn't know then that I I've been recently diagnosed with PDD-NOS, I'm incapable of having a normal social life.
I would speak ill of your doctor for giving you the impression that a developmental disorder can now be used as ammunition against suggestions of pursuing a normal social life, but I suspect you cooked that up on your own.
Tell me, did you get diagnosed for the express purpose of finding a reason to not alter the pattern of your life? Fine that you know, but not fine that your first response to me was to run back behind the big bad PDD label. It's a label, but in telling you anything about what the course of your life is supposed to be, it's not useful. And after all that, no publisher is going to accept a manuscript of yours with a note from your doctor explaining your condition- people will just laugh at you in a way far crueler than anything I've said.
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quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Its the hermit crabs, they don't want you to leave.... so they're secretly controlling your mind.... Making you stay and do weird things like singing off key karoke.... *shudder*
Heh. Though I do sing in key quite well I think. I wonder what a normal social life IS. Most of the time I hate hanging out in groups unless it's a Dir en grey concert or it's people I know very well. Plus I hate drinking too much and so much socializing involves drinking. Though I would like a boyfriend...I think.
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