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Author Topic: 8 year old arrested for sexually abusing an 10 year old
Alcon
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http://www.cbs6albany.com/news/police-1270165-abuse-boy.html

I'm sorta left speechless by this. Eight years old is 2nd or 3rd grade. At eight years old I wasn't attracted to girls - they still had cooties. A 10 year old still mostly looks like a boy. I cannot honestly see how you could charge someone that young with sexual abuse. They were KIDS! They could not possibly have really understood the meaning and consequences of their actions. Even if there was malice involved this is KIDS we're talking about. You don't charge them with a crime you send them to a child psychologist and try to figure out why a 8 year old is maliciously molesting an 10 year old - cause if he is there's something else very wrong going on here. And if it's not malicious then it's just the poor kids being curious!

Edit: I read the article wrong. At the time of the incident the boy was 8 and the girl 10.

[ January 13, 2010, 07:59 PM: Message edited by: Alcon ]

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Icarus
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quote:
Police began investigating when a 12-year-old girl reported in November 2009 being abused by the boy at the day care center.

The girl was 10 years old at the time, and the accused boy was 8, police say.

During their investigation, police identified two other alleged sexual abuse victims of the boy, now ages 11 and 9. [emphasis mine]

quote:
Even if there was malice involved this is KIDS we're talking about. You don't charge them with a crime you send them to a child psychologist and try to figure out why a 10 year old is maliciously molesting an 8 year old - cause if he is there's something else very wrong going on here. And if it's not malicious then it's just the poor kids being curious!
This doesn't sound like kids playing doctor. Given that the victims are older than the perpetrator, it sounds like in was "nonconsensual" (leaving aside the legal impossibility of giving consent at that age). In other words, I'd wager that this kid (allegedly) forced himself upon his victims.
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katharina
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Hmmm...I am actually okay with this legal action. I like that there has been a slow eroding of what is considered "acceptable" appropriation of other people's, and especially children's, bodies.

I certainly hope that the system treats the kid fairly, and that help is the main concern, but in my limited exposure to judicial action for sexual crimes, they do take all those things into consideration.

But I actually love that this isn't dismissed away as a "kids will be kids" kind of thing, and that it is being taken seriously. I think there is a lot of harm that has been done and then not dealt with because doing so would be difficult. I like that it seems bullying is being treated with less tolerance in schools, and I like that a case of a pre-teen who does something serious enough to be considered sexual abuse is not brushed away because he's so young.

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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Alcon:
http://www.cbs6albany.com/news/police-1270165-abuse-boy.html

I'm sorta left speechless by this. Ten years old is 4th or 5th grade. At ten years old I wasn't attracted to girls - they still had cooties. An 8 year looks almost exactly like a boy (unless it's a very mature 8 year old, I guess...) I cannot honestly see how you could charge someone that young with sexual abuse. They were KIDS! They could not possibly have really understood the meaning and consequences of their actions.

I preface this by saying that we will never be provided with details of this case because it involves juvenile victims and a juvenile offender, so my post is speculation, not fact.

That said, if this is indeed first degree sexual abuse committed by a 10 year old, that child is almost certainly a victim of sexual abuse himself. As such, he is also a victim. Unless the charges are wildly distorted (as Alcon has pointed out, this could be a case of "naive curiousity"), 10 year-olds are not likely to spontaneously sexually molest other children. Sexual acting out can be caused by a violation of emotional boundaries, sometimes caused by various forms of abuse in the home, or elsewhere. If the police and social workers have *any* idea what they're doing, this case is going to be dealing with the parents or other potential abusers in the child's life.

So yes, they were kids, but in fact a rather large portion of sexual abuse is perpetrated by abused children, on other children. Working in child and young adult recreation and counseling in my early twenties, I had some... unsettling experiences with abused children and adolescents. I was a mandated reporter who was compelled on a few occasions to involve CPS in families' lives. In fact, after graduating university I was offered an administrative position in a publicly run care center for abused and problem adolescents, something I don't think I ever discussed here at Hatrack. In the end, after consulting a number of people about the idea, I chose not to pursue it for personal reasons. I had already worked with kids who had turned around and stolen my bicycle, brought weapons into my workplace, drank and smoked- and they were mild offenders. I didn't think I could handle the real thing. Anyway- in my personal and professional experience, this kind of thing is not spontaneous- sexuality or a lack of boundaries is perpetrated upon the young, who perpetrate it upon each other.

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rivka
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Orincoro, that was my first thought as well.

And the child in question was actually EIGHT at the time of the alleged incidents.

So while I don't disagree with the arrest, I hope that part of his treatment will include therapy. Clearly he has been victimized as well.

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scifibum
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It's important to take action to stop it from happening. I'm not sure what the implications of an "arrest" in this case are. Hopefully the system will aim to address the full extent of the problem rather than simply punish the kid for his actions. I don't think the arrest rules that aim out.
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Orincoro
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In a perfect world, an offending 8 year old should receive nothing but psychological and emotional therapy. The mind is so plastic at that age- it's a shame we don't take it more into account when dealing with juvenile offenders.
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kmbboots
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I think that criminalizing this kid is probably a bad way to address this problem. If a ten-year-old isn't mature enough to consent to sexual activity, he is unlikely to be mature enough to be guilty of a sex crime in the same way an adult would be. Therapy and assessment, not jail and branding him a sex criminal at 10.

First degree sexual abuse is "inappropriate touching", yes? There is a whole range of activity that could fall into that category, some of which is not as scary as it might seem.

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katharina
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Arresting is fine - the sentence is not necessarily hard time at the rock pile. I find it very likely that doing so is a way to get the kid under the eye of a judge and way to ensure he gets the therapy needed. Without that legal impetus, I suspect that there would be little more than recommendations, and I suspect there would be fewer tools available to make sure he stays away from other kids. Whatever his situation and the reasons for it, other children need to be protected from him.

Arresting him enables all that to happen. Being arrested and then being legally required to get help is not the end of the world for the arrestee.

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Orincoro
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Keep in mind that the crime charged will be absent most of the context of the act. So, for instance, various other sexualized behaviors that might have caused this particular offense to be noticed or actively pursued by care-givers, or other behaviors not considered crimes, such as emotional abuse, bullying, and other unseen acts are not included in the crime. Since these things don't happen in a vacuum, we have to assume that the situation was probably overall serious enough to warrant official intervention, even if the totality of the situation is not represented in the crime that being charged. It's very easy to point out that adults can overreact and cause a ruckus over very little, but on the other hand adults can as easily, and often do, under-react, and only come forward when forced to by the circumstances.

This is simply an area of the specific situation we will not be privy to, ever.

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scifibum
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One hopes the officials involved are compassionate and wise, then.
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by katharina:
Arresting is fine - the sentence is not necessarily hard time at the rock pile. I find it very likely that doing so is a way to get the kid under the eye of a judge and way to ensure he gets the therapy needed. Without that legal impetus, I suspect that there would be little more than recommendations, and I suspect there would be fewer tools available to make sure he stays away from other kids. Whatever his situation and the reasons for it, other children need to be protected from him.

I agree with this. Especially the last sentence.
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kmbboots
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I would have to know what the "inappropriate touching" was to know if I agree.
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scholarette
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I would not feel comfortable branding this child a sexual offender at this stage of his life though. From what criminals report, having that brand on you makes your life significantly more difficult. Would that info be sealed with your juvy record?
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by scholarette:
Would that info be sealed with your juvy record?

Pretty sure that is required by law.
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scholarette
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I know the record is, I just was not sure about the whole sex offender registry.
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MightyCow
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I had a younger friend growing up who had a male and female dog, and they would mate in the back yard. Sometimes the kids would pretend to be dogs, and pretend to mate the same way.

As an adult, this would look like sexual behavior, but the kids didn't know they were doing anything besides pretending to be dogs.

Whenever I hear about young kids involved in sex crimes with other kids, I have to wonder if it isn't something similarly innocent of sexual intent.

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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by scholarette:
I know the record is, I just was not sure about the whole sex offender registry.

NAL, but I'd think registering a juvenile offender would require trying them as an adult, which I don't think they would do with a ten year old. I don't know though, when it comes to the sex offender registry. Perhaps one of our legal people can chime in?
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AvidReader
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quote:
Originally posted by scholarette:
I would not feel comfortable branding this child a sexual offender at this stage of his life though.

I was undecided on this point until I had a chance to look into it a bit more. According to the US Department of Justice, juveniles are unlikely to continue committing sex crimes.

quote:
More recent models emphasize the diversity of juvenile sex offenders, their favorable prognosis suggested by low sex-offense recidivism rates, and the commonalities between juvenile sex offending and other juvenile delinquency (Letourneau and Miner, 2005).
If the behavior were the start of an ugly pattern of victimization, then by all means, slap a label on it so we've got a warning. But if it's more acting out that tends to stop, no one would benefit from labeling the child a sex offender.

Hopefully, if I can find that with a quick Google search, the folks looking into the case are aware of the data as well. Not that stupider things haven't been known to happen in the justice system, but I'm at least optimistic that the kid has a decent shot at having help provided to him.

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AchillesHeel
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This has proven to be sickening and horrible to all of us in Phoenix. An eight year old daughter of Liberian refugee's was lead into a empty storage shed of the mostly Liberian apartment complex by four Liberian boy's ages nine to fourteen with the promise of bubble gum. They held her down and took turns raping her, if not for a random passerby who knows what would have happened to this child. Charges have been dropped against one boy, the oldest stands to be tried as an adult and atleast one remaining has released into the custody of the parents who raised him to be such a monster. In addition to several child abuse charges since 2005 the parents of the little girl have been arrested, after claiming "she has brought shame to our family, we do not want her" and telling authorities that the rape did not happen. The little girl has been in CPS custody ever since, oh yeah and her father as also said that he did not want anything bad to happen to the boy's who raped his daughter.

Yeah so this case that your talking about could just be evidence of deeper problems with that boy.

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kmbboots
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AchillesHeel, did you read the article. I specifically said that rape was not involved. "Inappropriate touching" could mean anything from truly sinister touching or relatively innocent touching that the boy mimicked not even knowing it was sexual. We don't know.

Also, you get that there are differences between 8 year olds, 10 year olds, and 14 year olds, right?

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katharina
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As it affected several children over a number of years and was not an isolated incident, it is a good thing there is an official investigation overseen by a judge going on.

----

I wonder if part of my gladness at the thought of this is because I don't think being arrested is the end of the world. It sucks, certainly, but sometimes that's what it takes to break a terrible cycle. Our justice system seems like a mix of punishment and rehabilitation, and I have a feeling that the younger the kid, the more emphasis on the rehabilitation.

It seems it would be doing everyone a much greater disservice to turn a blind eye and dismiss it without the investigation. I mean: multiple kids, over a span of years. There is definitely something weird going on.

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Christine
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quote:
Originally posted by katharina:

I wonder if part of my gladness at the thought of this is because I don't think being arrested is the end of the world. It sucks, certainly, but sometimes that's what it takes to break a terrible cycle. Our justice system seems like a mix of punishment and rehabilitation, and I have a feeling that the younger the kid, the more emphasis on the rehabilitation.

It seems it would be doing everyone a much greater disservice to turn a blind eye and dismiss it without the investigation. I mean: multiple kids, over a span of years. There is definitely something weird going on.

I think the issue I'm having is that I don't think our justice system rehabilitates at all. If I thought it did, I would probably share your outlook, because I don't think anyone is suggesting turning a blind eye. That's not what I've read out of anyone's posts in this thread, at least. It's more that people are thinking that the victims need treatment rather than jailtime, and I don't think the courts are equipped to do any but the latter.

I could be wrong...what kinds of rehabilitation efforts is the court permitted to make?

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katharina
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For juveniles, jail time is often not even an issue. For terms of probation a judge can order, even an adult, to go to therapy. To be gainfully employed. To have someone watch over them every week. To go to rehab and stay clean for a year.

Think about, well, all the trouble the young and stupid get in for drunk driving. It's a criminal offense, but a lot of times the legal consequences consist of "Don't get caught with drugs for a year." or "Don't drive anymore - have someone else drive you."

I don't see those things as punishment - they are clearly in the perpetrator's best interest. Sometimes they don't feel that way, but I think they are wrong - if they are driving drunk or high, it is in their best interest to take away the driver's license to it is a more risky and therefore less appealing activity, and being legally forced to stay off drugs and get a drug test every week is good for them. Even if they don't want it.

Even for sexual crimes, especially for young people, even with a guilty plea or verdict, the sentence is often court-ordered therapy. Therapy that often would not happen without it being ordered by a judge. That's from experiences I have seen for myself - and I'm not at all involved in the legal system beyond being a normal citizen.

I have also seen people be much, much better after something happened that forced the system to pay attention to them and try to get them help. Add in that juvenile records are sealed, and based on the facts we know so far, I don't see a downside to this. He needs help and attention, no matter what he's done. In my experience, the justice system generally gives it.

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AchillesHeel
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I was refering to something that hit close to home (literally) to explain why I would be hesitant to dismiss the girls claims. For whatever reason this boy is acting out in a particularly dangerous fashion, I think most everyone does while they are young in a myriad of ways but sexual abuse is not to taken lightly, even when performed by a pre-pubescant boy. Maybe our digital age, education by social lexicon and television has finally done a service by evidencing the truth to that little girl just exactly what happened, what he has been doing to other children and that without action he would not forseeably recede from this behavior on his own.

I genuinly hope that this boy recieves help and recuperation from a harmful and disturbed mind-set that would encourage such acts while he is young enough to change.

quote:
I could be wrong...what kinds of rehabilitation efforts is the court permitted to make?
To referance the Liberian case I linked above, one of the boys was given long term psychiatric help, an ankle bracelet, not allowed outside without an adult (thusly making the bracelet useless if not for house arrest) not allowed to be alone with children under the age of twelve, and lastly not allowed to fraternize with any and all children involved in the rape. If this kid got away from full on gang-bang rape with these entirely circumstantial charges I dont really see much happening to a child who did much less and was much younger.
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kmbboots
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There is a wide range of actions between "inappropriate touching" and rape and a wide range of actions between dismissing claims or taking them lightly and deciding that this boy is a criminal sex offender.

For example, when I was in Junior High there was a small group of boys that made my life miserable by grabbing my developing self when I passed them in the halls. This was certainly inappropriate touching, it certainly was miserable for me and a violation. They were - well - jerks as this is Hatrack. I would have liked to see them punished; I would not have wanted them jailed and branded for life. Does that make sense?

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katharina
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Considering no one has ventured the extreme option you oppose, there is no report of it happening, and it is highly unlikely even in the worst case scenario, I don't know what you are arguing against.

I am tremendously opposed to cutting off his hand and branding the kid's forehead with a huge "A". It's just as irrelevant.

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kmbboots
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No one has ventured dismissing the girl's complaint either. "Arrested" often - even usually - means jail time and a criminal record.
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katharina
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For juveniles, it much more often means udicial oversight, legal clout to change bad situations, sealed records, and court-ordered and funded therapy.
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kmbboots
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kat, have I done anything other than suggest that we need more information about what happened before we can guess at what response is appropriate? If not, why are you arguing with me?
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The Rabbit
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I think the charge is absurd for a child of 8. We aren't talking about a teenager hear, we are talking pre-puberty. This isn't a gray zone where a person might be sexually mature biologically but not legally. He was a child, not a juvenile.

No matter what the details are in this case, a charge of "assault" would have been far more appropriate for an 8 year old than a charge of "sexual assault". If we can argue that a 16 old isn't mature enough to consent to sex, how can we possibly even question whether an 8 year old could be accountable for a sex crime.

In my religion, we don't believe children under 8 are morally accountable for anything. If a 7 year old isn't be morally accountable for lying, how can a few months be enough to become accountable for something as serious as sexual assault.

A lot of 8 year olds don't even really understand what sex is, even if its been explained to them. How can they possibly understand all the rules about what is acceptable sexually activity and what is not?

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katharina
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[Roll Eyes]
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The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
No one has ventured dismissing the girl's complaint either. "Arrested" often - even usually - means jail time and a criminal record.

I can think of one possible benevolent reason for an arrest in this situation. When a juvenile is arrested they are taken out of the home in place in a juvenile detention facility (kiddy jail). Juveniles don't generally have the option of bail so they have to stay in detention until the case goes to trial. If the investigators had good reasons to believe this child was being sexually assaulted at home, but could not get enough evidence to move him into foster care, an arrest gets the kid out of danger and into a safe place where he can get help.

Of course, that same fact suggest a much darker possibility too. They could be trying to scare the kid into testifying against who ever is abusing him. That would be form of abuse itself.

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Rakeesh
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quote:

No matter what the details are in this case, a charge of "assault" would have been far more appropriate for an 8 year old than a charge of "sexual assault". If we can argue that a 16 old isn't mature enough to consent to sex, how can we possibly even question whether an 8 year old could be accountable for a sex crime.

'No matter what'? Rabbit, are you that certain of your knowledge of sexual psychological pathology - I'm not even sure what the clinical term would be - in children, or are you just using the expression?

I also don't see how the second connects to the first. Technically, we say that 16 isn't old enough to consent with someone 18+ in most places-but not that they're too young to consent legally to sex with someone of their own age, so there's some additional gray area.

As for religious thinking, well, we don't prosecute crimes on religious grounds, obviously-it doesn't really matter what your religion says about childhood accountability for anything, however much I might agree with that personally.

And as for understanding the rules...it's not necessary they understand all the rules-just the ones about not touching people when they tell you not to are sufficient, I think.

Don't get me wrong, I would be deeply uncomfortable with treating even in small ways this child like an adult. But that doesn't mean the situation is as clear cut as you're suggesting, or at least not for the reasons you're specifying.

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Olivet
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There are boys younger than that on the sex offender registries (or who were younger at the time of their supposed offenses). It depends on the jurisdiction. Some portion of them were involved in relatively innocent, normal exploratory behaviors and had their lives ruined because of it. There's a documentary in the works about this problem. It seems to be a result of a society that is both obsessed with sex and determined to see sexuality as dirty or shameful. Kids get curious, and do things that would have earned earlier generations a punishment from their parents and a warning.

Without knowing the details, it's hard to say what the case is in this instance, but here is a rather popular blog post on the subject:

http://freestudents.blogspot.com/2009/09/there-is-fury-and-and-sadness-inside.html

It's very sobering to think of the consequences when the judicial system gets involved in things that should be the responsibility of parents. Like those teens charged with child pornography for texting each other photos of their own bodies, when legally they are old enough to have sex (seventeen, the case was in Florida, naturally).

People end up on the perv registries for all sorts of things that in no way make them a threat to others that the value of such lists is negatively affected. (Police have to waste time interviewing a woman who performed a bj on on a boy who was six weeks younger than her when she was a teen every time there's a child abduction, because they have to interview everyone on the list. That sort of thing.)

Our society is so sick it makes itself worse while attempting to make itself better. It's depressing.

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kmbboots
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There are differences to take into account regarding why children would inappropriately touch other children. The could be mimicking behaviour, they could do it because it gets a reaction - lots of reasons. One reason that an 8 year old is probably not doing it - and here is what separates them from adult sexual criminals - they are probably not doing it to get off.
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Wendybird
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I think its naive to assume that a juvenile detention facility is a safer place.

My son is almost 8 years old. I can't imagine him doing anything to approach a level of sexual assault. For this child in this case to do something that would fall under that description he is most definitely being abused - even if that abuse is solely comprised of being exposed to sexually explicit material in such a quantity that he feels the need to act out.

I really don't know if an arrest was warranted or not since we don't get any details with this story but it truly is tragic that this kind of story is even occurring. Further proof of the degradation of our society as a whole.

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The Rabbit
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quote:
And as for understanding the rules...it's not necessary they understand all the rules-just the ones about not touching people when they tell you not to are sufficient, I think.
Quite a few 8 year olds will not have been taught all the kinds of touching that are inappropriate. And if they have been, I don't believe an 8 year old is mature enough to understand why inappropriately touching someone in a sexual way is different than tickling, pinching on the on the arm or pulling their hair and we certainly wouldn't arrest a child for doing those things.

I don't know what the kid did so I can't say anything about whether an arrest was an appropriate response or not. Its the charge I find inappropriate. "Assault" would have worked and it wouldn't have branded the kid as a sexual predator.

And yes, I will stand by the "no matter what the details of the case may be". We don't know enough about childhood sexual psychology to know what kinds of behavior, if any, are remotely reliable indication of any future development. So no matter what this child actually did, it won't justify branding him a sexual predatory. If we some day gain the knowledge to accurately predict that child who does inappropriate things will grow up to be a dangerous criminal, I will reevaluate. Right now, we can't so it isn't.

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The Rabbit
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quote:
I think its naive to assume that a juvenile detention facility is a safer place.
Safer than what? If a child is really being routinely abused at home, almost anywhere is safer.
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Rakeesh
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How many 8 year olds aren't taught that it's not OK to touch someone if they object to it?

That's my point. Not that an 8 year old would have been taught the nuances of sexualized touching, because obviously that's absurd. But to suggest the kid couldn't have known it was wrong because he is so young seems as off to me as to suggest he knew why he was wrong because everybody does.

quote:
We don't know enough about childhood sexual psychology to know what kinds of behavior, if any, are remotely reliable indication of any future development.
I was asking if you knew enough about child sexual psychology to know with such certainty that he isn't a sexual predator now, and could not possibly be one regardless of details.

I agree it's probably incredibly unlikely, but I was just wondering where you found the certainty to declare that no matter what comes out, it isn't the case here.

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kmbboots
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A big part of the reason that adult sexual predators are dangerous and belong on watch lists is because, given the chance, they almost always keep committing these crimes. They get sexual release from children - and often only from children. This is not the case for, as a possible example, a nine-year-old who gives a girl in his class a purple nurple. This isn't meant to diminish the distress of the victim - as I said earlier, I know how awful that can be - it is just to show why the nine-year-old shouldn't be deemed a danger to children forever.
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The Rabbit
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quote:
I was asking if you knew enough about child sexual psychology to know with such certainty that he isn't a sexual predator now, and could not possibly be one regardless of details.
The you misread my original statement. I never said "no matter what", I said "no matter what the details are of this case".

I other words, there isn't anything this child could have done that would justify a charge of "sexual assault" rather than a charge of "assault".

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The Rabbit
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quote:
How many 8 year olds aren't taught that it's not OK to touch someone if they object to it?
Some. I have no idea how many. Almost all kids of that age touch other kids who object to it, whether they've been taught its wrong or not. They push, shove, poke, pull hair, tickle, pinch, to name some of the more minor infractions. Not that any of those are acceptable, just that they aren't crimes or even abnormal behavior.

quote:
That's my point. Not that an 8 year old would have been taught the nuances of sexualized touching, because obviously that's absurd.
And my point is that if a kid isn't able to understand why giving a girl a purple nipple is different from giving her a monkey bite on the arm, its absurd to charge him with a crime that presumes there is a difference and he should understand that difference.
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Rakeesh
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quote:
I never said "no matter what", I said "no matter what the details are of this case".
Isn't 'no matter what the details are' the same as 'no matter what' when we're talking in both cases about specific individuals? Honest question-'no matter what the details are' read to me as a straight-up equivalent to 'no matter what' here.

quote:
I other words, there isn't anything this child could have done that would justify a charge of "sexual assault" rather than a charge of "assault".
Same question-isn't what you're saying that no matter what the 8yr old does, it doesn't justify sexual assault charges?

quote:
Almost all kids of that age touch other kids who object to it, whether they've been taught its wrong or not. They push, shove, poke, pull hair, tickle, pinch, to name some of the more minor infractions. Not that any of those are acceptable, just that they aren't crimes or even abnormal behavior.
My point is to counter the suggestion that this kid didn't know what he was doing was wrong, by virtue of his age. Did he know why it was wrong? Almost certainly not-how could he, being a child?

quote:
And my point is that if a kid isn't able to understand why giving a girl a purple nipple is different from giving her a monkey bite on the arm, its absurd to charge him with a crime that presumes there is a difference and he should understand that difference.
Here's what I'm questioning: how do you know it's impossible this kid doesn't have some idea of the differences between the two, Rabbit?
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Earendil18
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Well freaking out and sending him to therapy is sure a great way not to instill sexual neurosis.

What Olivet said. When normal, consensual child sexual explorations are defined as "abuse", I don't know what to believe anymore. We have gone from worrying about random abductions by violent strangers, to criminalizing kids. How is this child protection? It "looks" like "something" is being done, but both kids have lost in this scenario.

Abuse in this case, can mean anything, and just because they throw the word around a lot in the article, doesn't mean the victims were helpless or forced. There's no indication either way, except a catch-all term "abuse", and that the girl "reported" it, which could mean anything after a hysterical adult frenzy.

Regardless, it's a hijacking of language, not based on reality. Abuse can mean a violent rape, or a curious 5 year old. This whole thing is so binary in its application, it's absurd, and if the girl had been a boy, he would have been arrested for being older. The gender bias is obvious.

But since we don't want to acknowledge childhood sexuality or curiosity (fetuses masturbate for Pete's sake), we don't even give kids the tools needed to set appropriate boundaries so things like this don't happen in the first place. They are left to their own devices, and then we wring our hands wondering what happened. Even when the kids have obviously consented, the ideology can't fathom that, and thus they label one a victim and one a perp.

The frenzy that follows any of these acts IMO can be far more damaging than the act itself, and transmits all kinds of sexual paranoias that are not healthy. What kind of message do we give our kids about sex when we absolutely go crazy like this?

You don't protect kids by keeping them in the dark, and then arresting them for fumbling around. I sure hope to God that that documentary is made, so we don't have normal, sexually developing kids put into "therapies" and modern-day concentration camps created by the sexual abuse industry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THQ5AKk_QR4

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MightyCow
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I just hope this isn't a case of "show me your and I'll show you mind" coupled with some over-reacting adults and instead of the kids getting a talking to about the birds and bees, they have to deal with all this crazy BS.

Did none of you ever have any sexual curiosity as a kid? Everyone I know either played doctor or took baths with opposite sex cousins or similar sexually-innocent behaviors that are now sometimes considered sex crimes by an overly puritanical society.

Hell, most of the people my age have pictures of themselves as babies in the tub, or running around the house with no diapers. Now if you take a picture of your own baby naked you're a child pornographer. It's absurd.

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Earendil18
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I had hots for my friends mom when I was 5, and another friend an I compared penises on more than one occasion. If that happened today, oh lord, it would be insane.

Judith Levine outlines more of the problems with this hysteria going on. I highly recommend her book. Scroll down a bit...
http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2009/03/15/18577524.php

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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by MightyCow:

Did none of you ever have any sexual curiosity as a kid? Everyone I know either played doctor or took baths with opposite sex cousins or similar sexually-innocent behaviors that are now sometimes considered sex crimes by an overly puritanical society.

On the flip side, because your experiences, as with most people, were perfectly innocent, you have a natural tendency to assume that this may always be the case. The fact is that child on child sexual abuse is real, does happen, and more than you probably would like to believe. I understand this reaction, but modern society has not yet developed a proportionally measured response to sexual abuse among children. You are more likely to hear of ridiculous cases because they are idealized: someone overreacts, and *that* is what we hear about because it confirms what we would like to believe. Real actual cases of abuse are not good news, because there is nothing about them from which we stand to learn or gain from.

I would only add yet again that we will not ever have the details of this case- the hell of it is that we only get details of cases where abuse likely *hasn't* happened, because actual abuse cases are not sensationalized or detailed in the press, for the protection of the victim and alleged abuser. However, actual data on such crimes reflects that genuine abuse among children is exceedingly common, and always has a connection to a traumatized child inflicting that trauma on others. As much as we would care to minimize that fact, and as much as we are shielded from it in the popular press and imagination- it's real. It's not a figment of the puritanical imagination.

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The Rabbit
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quote:
The fact is that child on child sexual abuse is real, does happen, and more than you probably would like to believe.
I'm sure that for some definition of sexual abuse that is true. I just don't know what that definition is and that I would agree its a legitimate use of the term sexual abuse.

Your claim that its real and horrible and traumatic aren't enough to establish this as true.

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Earendil18
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quote:
Originally posted by Orincoro:

...actual abuse cases are not sensationalized or detailed in the press, for the protection of the victim and alleged abuser. However, actual data on such crimes reflects that genuine abuse among children is exceedingly common, and always has a connection to a traumatized child inflicting that trauma on others. As much as we would care to minimize that fact, and as much as we are shielded from it in the popular press and imagination- it's real. It's not a figment of the puritanical imagination.

I'd argue the opposite, that these cases are sensationalized, because there aren't as many out there as we have been mediabludgeoned to think, so they have to widen the net, and thus, the puritanical imagination has redefined the words "sex offender" and "child porn" to include curious kids, and parents who take innocent bathtub pictures, works of art containing nude children, or even cartoon porn.

I argue that because of a puritanical ideology that insists on the idea of a completely asexual child with no sexual inclinations, for only "adults" have "dirty sex", natural curiosity and sexual development in children and teens has been defined as abuse...and thus, there's "lots of data" out there. There's also a fair amount of data out there that suggests adult-child sexual interaction, when consensual and age-appropriate can be quite positive, but the ideology will not allow for that to exist. "It can never be positive, therefore, it's always abuse. Someone must have done this to him/her"

And so the child/teen is brought into therapy/reform camp, and asked relentlessly if they were abused. The kid is out of his element, scared, and wondering why everyone is flipping out. And because the therapist already thinks the child is a criminal and a liar, the therapist will not accept the answer "no, I wasn't abused" or "I was genuinely curious, we wanted to do it".

The child quickly picks up that if he/she says "yes", he/she can go home and get away from all this craziness. If he/she will only admit that his/her natural exploration was caused by the abuse of someone else, he/she can leave.

Then the sexual abuse industry uses this as validation! "hah! see? abuse begets abuse" This is what happens at these teen sexual reform camps folks. Masturbation logs, fantasy logs...see the link I posted earlier, these are absolutely unregulated, unqualified, untrained individuals running these modern-day gulags.
HERE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THQ5AKk_QR4

And so the net is widened.
In the beginning, images of child sexual activity are illegal. Then, naked kids in general, are defined as obscene. Now, cartoon kids are obscene. Ages of consent are raised, and...

"And...well...GEE! There sure seem to be EVEN MORE pedo's and potential abusers than ever! See?! Abuse is everywhere, we must look for more! Raise the age of consent to 22! What? You texted a 2-inch picture of your penis to your girlfriend? You created and distributed child porn!"
http://go2.wordpress.com/?id=725X1342&site=sexualintelligence.wordpress.com&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F18Wgxt

So it has perpetuated and grown to the hysteria we see today.

The puritanical imagination would then say nudist families are filled to the brim with abused kids and dirty adults, when perhaps they may have a more body/sex positive point of view, and don't grow up afraid or ashamed of how nature or God made them. They're not in the dark, or misinformed, or ignorant about themselves, their bodies, and kosher sex.

The precise opposite is how a large portion of puritan America handles this subject, and thus we reap what we sow. We're sexual schizophrenics, and kids will and do pick up on these negative signals we send them. Child abuse? How about parents telling their kids that who they are is bad, and the only way they can be safe is to fear and cower before a needy, childish, and punitive deity?

Levine argues that the idea that sex is bad for kids, is what's bad for kids, and I think she's on to something.

We obviously don't want them to be abused, but when it comes to matters as complex as human sexual interaction, is this current, binary model and application of the Law, really the best way to deal with this? I'd argue no, especially with the massive, massive collateral damage being done to families of sex offenders, again, a large portion of which either had sex with their underage girlfriend, were curious, or basically anything but a violent non-consensual act.

It doesn't matter that Joe Schmoe had sex with his girlfriend of 17 when he was 18, no, he's on the sex offender registry list for LIFE, making it impossible to live..well..basically anywhere. His chances of getting a job are nill, and basically he's exiled from society. It's crueler than the death penalty. What an enlightened and modern society to be so Bronze Age in our application of "justice". But thankfully, Joe Schmoe who lives with his mother, opens the door to his home and gets a shotgun to the face, because some vigilante saw his name on the public SO registry, saw the word "abuse" and promptly associated him with the absolutely worst violent criminal. May he rest in peace.

Politicians "doing something" about sex offenders. Solving the actual problem? Not so much.
http://go2.wordpress.com/?id=725X1342&site=sexualintelligence.wordpress.com&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbit.ly%2F47xIDD

When we've redefined nude, non-sexual images of innocent childhood moments as "child porn", that says more about US than anything "out there". Could society possibly be disowning and projecting its obsession with child sexuality onto a scapegoat group? When a man can be sent to jail for 25 years for downloading images of cartoon...CARTOON porn, how is his arrest saving anyone? The documentation is out there, looking at fantasy imagery does not indicate intent, hell, just look at the stuff coming out of Japan. An insane array of sexually explicit imagery, and one of the lowest sex crimes in the world.

"Despite the absence of evidence, the myth persists that an abundance of sexual explicit material invariably leads to an abundance of sexual activity and eventually rape (e.g., Liebert, Neale, & Davison, 1973). Indeed, the data we report and review suggests the opposite."
http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/1961to1999/1999-pornography-rape-sex-crimes-japan.html

And it is a myth. Violent video games and porn don't increase violence and rape, but noticeably the opposite. And so the governments of the world cry "protect the kids" while they censor the internet, and continue to erode privacy rights of citizens and control parents and others through fear of "the other". The pedo. The terrorist. Yada yada.

And when it comes to actually helping kids, giving kids opportunity, safe, loving environments, and helping reduce abuse, not much is gained, but many many people are hurt in the aftermath. Our governments will continue to invest more into the war machine, more into corporate schmucks, and Levine once again, hits the nail on the head:

http://www.7dvt.com/2008poverty-solutions

"Pain and tragedy, Senator Shumlin? Few if any of the 34 points will prevent these from befalling Vermontís children. But thatís not the worst of it. The worst is that each shiny, sharp nail the state installs in a sex offenderís bed will be felt on the skin of a child."


"Fear is the mind-killer."

2c [Hat]

[ January 22, 2010, 06:26 AM: Message edited by: Earendil18 ]

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