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Lisa: Oh, thanks for typing all of that out. Even though I disagree that we should support Israel (or hinder it for that matter), I respect your effort in getting all of that down.
Actually, how do you reconcile this which seems to be a relatively straight-forward call to support Israel with your previous support of Ron Paul's call (IIRC) to simply wash our hands of the whole thing and stop interfering?
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Okay. Nothing there we haven't already heard. Besides, she loses a lot of credibility right off the bat with this:
quote:Beyond all of that, I just love Israel. I don't have to make any excuses about my love for the place where every great thing that has happened in terms of civilization was birthed.
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I'm not sure what to make of her flip-flopping of the support for Israel vs. support for the United States. I think America earned a fair share of its Middle Eastern enmity from propping up dictators, but it also doesn't take a genius to see that Israel is often used as a wedge to fire up the troops whenever its time to go America bashing. The idea that Israel is reviled for supporting America more than America is reviled for supporting Israel strikes me as counter-intuitive. I will say that on a micro-level, if you get down to the leaders of the movements and the ones who push the propaganda, she's probably right. But that hardly makes a difference when it's the masses who do the killing who actually believe the propaganda.
1. Archeological proof? I have mixed feelings on that. If we were to begin basing support for nationality on archeology, we'd be in some pretty big trouble. However, in this specific case, I don't have a problem with supporting Israel's claim to exist in that particular spot because that's where they came from. I don't though, think that can be used as a carte blanche excuse to do whatever they want with anyone on the land they have a beef with.
2. Historic right. Well, sort of mixed in with archeology no? I guess it diverges a bit, and it's an interesting argument that depends on a number of things. One, it depends on your belief that ancient possession of land matters in the 21st century. I think this gets us into the same problems that archeology does. But the second premise gives me more problems. Two, she calls the British the founding fathers, and since the British handed over the land, it's all good. Well, there's a fantastic argument for colonialism. This only works if you believe that Britain had the right to give that land away, rather than simply returning it to the natives. I guess it's a bit of a gray area however since Turkey was in control and not an independent native country. (Also, can she stop shouting?)
3. Practical value. Sure. I agree.
4. Humanitarian concerns. Eh. Well alright, she's certainly right about what happened to Jews in WWII. They didn't have anywhere to go, even the United States. Making a state for them back then made a lot more sense than it does today however. She's basing her argument on the fact that in the future, someone is going to try and persecute Jews again, because they always have in the past, so Israel is a place of safety. I'll leave any possible potential for irony in the "humanitarian concern" thing out for now, since it's contentious, and just say that I'm not sure this is a good argument for the continuing support of Israel. For me to support on that ground, I would have to say to myself "The United States is a place where Jews will be persecuted, so I had better support Israel." It's a strange reason to ask non-Jews to support Israel, and frankly, I don't believe it's true.
5. Strategic ally. Sure. I agree here too. I'd say it's in some ways a wash though, as I think we piss a lot of Middle Eastern enemies off just by supporting Israel, but for the most part, Israel soaks up the damage itself rather than having it directed against us. Plus we get some decent intel out of Mossad. So sure. Good argument. I'm not sure how much we can "depend" on them though. Israel acts as Israel should; in their own interests. That interest often comes into conflict with what America's leaders feel is the best path for America. I don't criticize Israel for that one though, that's how it should be.
6. Roadblock to terrorism. Not sure what to make of this one. The whole world opinion thing isn't a good argument for me.
7. God said so. This isn't a good argument for me either. In fact, I think this likely isn't a good argument for most people. The screaming of "if God said it, that settles it!" would probably turn a lot of people off too (like me).
Honestly, the "philosophical" argument that she sidestepped, or that might have been mentioned earlier off camera, shouldn't have been ignored. The fact that Israel has a right to exist and a right to protect itself is a moral imperative that has nothing to do with any of the reasons listed here. I think you have to establish that basis before launching into why to support them. Especially if, as she seems to suggest, the world is full of anti-Semites who probably don't think Israel should exist to begin with.
I think her presentation would have been a lot better if she hadn't been yelling at me the whole time. If my child were forced to watch this in school, I would be screaming bloody murder at the next school board meeting. I don't know what could possibly make you think this should be required watching any more than the Bible should be required reading, or "An Inconvenient Truth" should be required watching. And also, at what grade would you find it most appropriate to begin indoctrinating America's youth in the defense of Israel?
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quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: Clive, You are pretty clearly violating what the mod of this site asked you to do. You should stop and you should edit out your previous posts.
I am not addressing Lisa.
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Clive, I'd appreciate it if you hold off on participating in this thread until you hear from me by e-mail. If your e-mail address is not the one currently in your profile, please send me an e-mail to which I can respond.
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: Lisa: Oh, thanks for typing all of that out. Even though I disagree that we should support Israel (or hinder it for that matter), I respect your effort in getting all of that down.
Actually, how do you reconcile this which seems to be a relatively straight-forward call to support Israel with your previous support of Ron Paul's call (IIRC) to simply wash our hands of the whole thing and stop interfering?
That's the whole thing about statism. It makes people forget that it's people who are the real actors in the world. The government should not support Israel (or any other country or person), but that doesn't mean people shouldn't. It's just that they should be persuaded; not coerced. And having the government do it is coercion.
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What form of support would you suggest the people take? Contributing financially to Israel (and if so, how), or some sort of vocal support? Anything involving the military or nationally funded state aid is the government.
I'm not criticizing by the way, I'm just trying to get a handle on what structure of support you're espousing.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Okay. Nothing there we haven't already heard. Besides, she loses a lot of credibility right off the bat with this:
quote:Beyond all of that, I just love Israel. I don't have to make any excuses about my love for the place where every great thing that has happened in terms of civilization was birthed.
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: What form of support would you suggest the people take? Contributing financially to Israel (and if so, how), or some sort of vocal support? Anything involving the military or nationally funded state aid is the government.
Really? So you think that sending money and/or weapons is only the government? You know I'm against government aid. I've made that so clear so many times that I'm starting to feel surprised every time someone questions it.
A tremendous amount of charitable giving in this country, particularly from Jews, goes to Israel. And yet there are Israel-hating Jews like J-Street, who would love to get that to stop.
The government shouldn't take my money to give it to Israel. But it shouldn't stop me from giving it of my own free will, and it shouldn't prevent me from trying to convince others to do the same.
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: How do you feel about Chicago-style pizza?
I think it should just be called pizza, and every other kind of "pizza" should take a modifier. Why?
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I'm kind of curious about her use of Mark Twain as an authority on the population of Palestine prior to the establishment of Israel. Something about it seems to be missing, or I'm just ignorant of what things were like there in that particular moment in history.
See...when I went there, the vast desert was broken by towns scattered roughly along a line from Jerusalem to Elat, and then again toward the sea. I'd say the vast majority of those places had permanent settlements that included buildings from every historically possible era (modern, colonial, pre-colonial, the crusades, Roman occupation, pre-Roman, and on back to the Exodus. Some wells are traditionally dated to the time of Abraham. And, even at that, there were people there before then.
So...here's my question: were those cities and towns empty in the 1860s? If not, then what exactly is the point of talking about the desert being empty when Twain rode through?
Also, do the facts of nomadic existence enter into the equation at all? It's becoming a big deal here in the US that land once "occupied" by nomadic tribal groups was usurped in the Western Expansion under the rubric of "they weren't using it." If herders have a practice of letting areas recover for stretches of time, the fact that they weren't around when Mark Twain blew through on a guided tour really wouldn't be relevant.
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I can't think of anything significant for civilization that Israel has birthed. I mean, I really can't. For the brief period of history where it was at all significant, it was very much a third-rate empire that, as far as I can tell, didn't make any notable contributions to civilization.
Is she talking about Jesus?
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Actually, Israel is a hotbed of innovation today. There is so much amazing science and technology advancement going on there that they truly can lay claim to being a force for the good of all mankind.
I know the claim was made historically, but it's worth examining from a modern perspective as well.
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Yeah, sorry, I meant from a historical perspective, not including the developments since the reestablishment of Israel.
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Certainly Jewish people (not necessarily from Israel, but we'll be nice and stretch) have made significant contributions to art and culture, but not "birthed" them all by themselves.
Sumeria had some vague proto-democratic ideas, but that wasn't Israel. Plenty of great things happened in the far East that had nothing to do with Israel.
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Certainly Jewish people (not necessarily from Israel, but we'll be nice and stretch) have made significant contributions to art and culture, but not "birthed" them all by themselves.
Sumeria had some vague proto-democratic ideas, but that wasn't Israel. Plenty of great things happened in the far East that had nothing to do with Israel.
From a purely historical perspective Judaism gave rise to the two largest religious beliefs on the planet.
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Oh sure, so we're back to blaming the Jews. I don't think we can blame Islam and Christianity on them.
But on the positive side, I am indeed scratching my head as to the great things that Israel contributed.
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Stephan, Those are definitely contributions, but I wouldn't consider those as contributions to civilization per se. I'm not trying to denigrate them, just say that they don't fit the criteria that I'd use for that categorization.
Of course, I'm willing to grant them and say, besides that, what did Israel contribute?
It's not like they developed the wheel, or roads, or the stirrup, or writing, or the principles of science, or algebra, or representative government, or well, anything that I can think of a contribution to development of civilization.
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quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: I can't think of anything significant for civilization that Israel has birthed. I mean, I really can't. For the brief period of history where it was at all significant, it was very much a third-rate empire that, as far as I can tell, didn't make any notable contributions to civilization.
Is she talking about Jesus?
Seriously? Have you met me?
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quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: Stephan, Those are definitely contributions, but I wouldn't consider those as contributions to civilization per se. I'm not trying to denigrate them, just say that they don't fit the criteria that I'd use for that categorization.
Of course, I'm willing to grant them and say, besides that, what did Israel contribute?
It's not like they developed the wheel, or roads, or the stirrup, or writing, or the principles of science, or algebra, or representative government, or well, anything that I can think of a contribution to development of civilization.
Actually, alphabetic writing is ours. So is the idea of human rights, or limited powers of government (kings).
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Seriously? Have you met me?
I think he's referring to Joyce Kaufman who apparently is a reborn Christian going to Hopewell Missionary Baptist Church.
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quote:It's not like they developed the wheel, or roads, or the stirrup, or writing, or the principles of science, or algebra, or representative government, or well, anything that I can think of a contribution to development of civilization.
Assuming we're talking about the Jews here, they contributed an enormous portion of a text that has been extremely influential in Western culture since...well, almost since there's been a West.
That's nothing to sneeze at.
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And, as I said, I wouldn't consider that as a contribution to civilization, but I'm willing to grant it and say, okay, besides that?
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quote: I don't have to make any excuses about my love for the place where every great thing that has happened in terms of civilization was birthed.
Nah-- that's carrying the Israel-love a bit far.
But let's be realistic: Jewish scripture is a HUGE part of Western culture, and has been for a long, long time. So, in terms of civilization, Israel has contributed. It's a mistake to overlook a text that has inspired poets, writers, laws, etc.
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quote:Originally posted by Scott R: You're referring to this?
quote: I don't have to make any excuses about my love for the place where every great thing that has happened in terms of civilization was birthed.
Nah-- that's carrying the Israel-love a bit far.
But let's be realistic: Jewish scripture is a HUGE part of Western culture, and has been for a long, long time. So, in terms of civilization, Israel has contributed. It's a mistake to overlook a text that has inspired poets, writers, laws, etc.
QFT
The influence also shows up in laws, public policy, and societal norms.
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quote:Originally posted by Scott R: You're referring to this?
quote: I don't have to make any excuses about my love for the place where every great thing that has happened in terms of civilization was birthed.
Nah-- that's carrying the Israel-love a bit far.
But let's be realistic: Jewish scripture is a HUGE part of Western culture, and has been for a long, long time. So, in terms of civilization, Israel has contributed. It's a mistake to overlook a text that has inspired poets, writers, laws, etc.
Sure. Had she said that instead of "where every great thing that has happened in terms of civilization was birthed", I would have agreed. Since she did go with the delusional fanaticism, she loses credibility.
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