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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » How did people get so harsh towards children? (Page 5)

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Author Topic: How did people get so harsh towards children?
Synesthesia
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I'm kind of being slowly brainwashed in a good way by GCM to be reluctant to be punitive.
I don't totally understand how it works, but it makes a lot of sense. If a kid is hitting because their reaction is hitting, the parents have totally got to be above that somehow, but a slight tap is way better than a certain nut with wapping a child with a toy.

Why do people follow those folks? Urg. A person can drive themselves up a tree trying to make sense of people.

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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
Why do people follow those folks?
Why do you keep asking questions that nobody here can answer?
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scifibum
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Glenn,
quote:
Did you really mean to say that? I certainly never intended to inflict humiliation. My purpose was to show that there was an absolute limit to what a child can get away with.
It's not about the ultimate intent, it's about the nature of the mechanism that you use to achieve it.

Did you intend to show [the lesson] by inflicting pain, or by inflicting humiliation? Or was the mechanism something else?

Tom was saying that people use spanking as a way to induce humiliation to achieve any number of ends, not that humiliation is the end.

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Synesthesia
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:
Why do people follow those folks?
Why do you keep asking questions that nobody here can answer?
Because I need to know... It doesn't make any sense and I don't understand it.

Plus I ask these sort of questions a lot such as, were marriages better in the past with arranged marriages, marriages based more on *hand gestures* economics of some sort and social contracts between or are they better these days when most marry for love but have unrealistic expectations of what a husband or wife can do for them?
Did disdain of divorce force people, especially women, to stay in unhealthy marriages? Does stigmatizing single mothers contribute to abortion?
And most of these above questions come about from reading The History of the Wife. I'm curious to find out what folks think about that because, again, I always, always need to know more. If there was a way to plug knowledge right into my brain, I'd do it.

Then there's the posibility of folks following the Pearls because-
They were raised the same way and think it's right despite lingering doubts in their heads and guilt.
They believe it's the Christian thing to do.
That fear of secular humanists, a sort of extreme backlash against that sort of thought.

But none of those reasons make any sense because even folks who have spanking in their tool box think that guy is a major nut.

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Synesthesia:
quote:
Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:
Why do people follow those folks?
Why do you keep asking questions that nobody here can answer?
Because I need to know... It doesn't make any sense and I don't understand it.
I swear you must have at least a hundred posts that involve you saying something that essentially goes like this:

1. I am paying attention to / reading / watching <X>

2. It makes me feel HORRIBLE and I can't STAND it.

3. Why does <X> exist / write these things / do these things? It makes me feel HORRIBLE and I can't STAND it.

3. I believe this is the last time I will pay attention to / read / watch <X> because it makes me feel HORRIBLE and I can't STAND it.

4. (continues to divest a lot of energy and attention towards <X>, continues feeling horrible and emitting copious amounts of anguish)

5. (eventually grinds teeth into calcium dust, not being able to leave <X> behind or not pay attention to it)


break the cycle!

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Papa Moose
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quote:
Originally posted by Glenn Arnold:
. . .but I do argue that you should have a plan in mind before your hand starts to move. If you're totally against spanking so you don't have that plan, I guarantee you it's going to be worse when you do hit.

I know this isn't the first time you said something in this vein, but this time it totally reminded me of arguments against abstinence-only teaching.
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Synesthesia
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:
Originally posted by Synesthesia:
quote:
Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:
Why do people follow those folks?
Why do you keep asking questions that nobody here can answer?
Because I need to know... It doesn't make any sense and I don't understand it.
I swear you must have at least a hundred posts that involve you saying something that essentially goes like this:

1. I am paying attention to / reading / watching <X>

2. It makes me feel HORRIBLE and I can't STAND it.

3. Why does <X> exist / write these things / do these things? It makes me feel HORRIBLE and I can't STAND it.

3. I believe this is the last time I will pay attention to / read / watch <X> because it makes me feel HORRIBLE and I can't STAND it.

4. (continues to divest a lot of energy and attention towards <X>, continues feeling horrible and emitting copious amounts of anguish)

5. (eventually grinds teeth into calcium dust, not being able to leave <X> behind or not pay attention to it)


break the cycle!

It drives me up a tree though. These thing affect the larger society.

I did stop reading OSC articles. Except that one someone posted on another topic I did that was sweet and kind and didn't say one thing about liberals or intellectual elites.
And I am not going on Pearl's website. Or KKK websites...

But I do wish there was some way to change the larger society. it's interesting how much it's changed so far.

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Rakeesh
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quote:
But I do wish there was some way to change the larger society. it's interesting how much it's changed so far.
I wonder what the change rate is in response to upset Internet discussion board postings?
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Synesthesia:
It drives me up a tree though.

We know. I'm conflicted. It's not like I want to encourage someone to be more willfully ignorant for the sake of anything, but you are constantly torturing yourself by exposing yourself and being unable to disengage from things that you find out about and really honestly DO NOT have thick enough skin to be able to invest time and energy into them without driven crazy by them.

Everyone sort of knows their limits. I know mine. there's a reason I don't go to ogrish, and have never seen 2girls1cup or anything like that. I know what I can anticipate. I know I will actively go out of my way to ensure I don't see it. And if something drives me nuts in a bad way, I drop it and leave it alone! I don't just go back to get tortured by it again and again.

Maybe the 'thicker skin' part is pivotal but I don't know what I can recommend to you! You are totally caught in this cycle and I can see why other people find it practically exasperating.

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Scott R
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quote:
Scott, at what age do you plan to stop using veto power over purchases like that?
I don't know. It's not something my wife and I have talked about much, though we have discussed our current media filtering strategies.

My best guess is that when she's old enough to keep her music to herself and not allow the message of the lyrics or the feeling of the composition sway her attitude, I'll probably stop vetoing her music choices. But I can't imagine ever letting her play something like...I dunno Tenacious D, out loud in my home, or where the other kids could hear it.

quote:
How confident are you that she actually reached that conclusion on her own? I only ask because I can easily a kid realizing, "This conversation won't end with me getting the song no matter what happens. So I may as well get what I can from it." That's not to say I'm asking, "How confident are you that she's telling the truth?" but rather wondering how much, if at all, that pragmatic consideration entered into the matter at all?
[Laugh]

That reasoning may have gone into it, Rakeesh. I'm not really worried if that was her thinking; there have been other times when she's decided to walk away from things that are opposed to our family's moral standards, when there's been no external/parental initiated reason to do so.

I'm confident she understands our expectations; I'm fairly confident she understands the reasons for them.

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Rakeesh
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Ahh, hit the nail on the head, Scott, thanks for answering:) I was just thinking back to a few similar conversations I had with my parents when I was a child. I had a pretty good idea what was permitted and what wasn't, and I knew pretty clearly where the gray area was where I might be able to use mature conversation to get what I wanted.
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Jim-Me
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Edit: apparently I missed an entire page of this thread... this was directed at Syn's post containing the quote which follows.

Syn, I don't really follow your last post at all.

But the bit that I am really confused by is:
quote:
But, one cannot understand how deeply I do not want to spank.
You *do* realize that people defending spanking in this thread are not trying to say that *you* should spank, don't you?

Most are saying that there are some situations where spanking *is* the best method. Some (I include myself in this group) basically agree that spanking is generally not the best method for discipline, but it is not so damaging as people make out and not outright abusive. In addition, *I* said there are some kids who, for whatever reason, have reached the point where they do not care about time outs, detentions, or any other non-physical form of punishment. Depriving them or causing them pain is the only thing that gets their attention. My observation of these kids leads me to believe they are that way because of coddling, not because of harshness.

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AvidReader
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I'd guess the studies on the first page would apply to that dynamic just as much:

quote:
Aggressiveness in children has also been linked to maternal permissiveness and negative criticism, more closely than to physical discipline...
Instead of physical punishment, what they probably need is to believe someone gives a crap about them and wants the best for them.
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Synesthesia
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quote:
Originally posted by AvidReader:
I'd guess the studies on the first page would apply to that dynamic just as much:

quote:
Aggressiveness in children has also been linked to maternal permissiveness and negative criticism, more closely than to physical discipline...
Instead of physical punishment, what they probably need is to believe someone gives a crap about them and wants the best for them.
True this. Coddling, which babies especially need, doesn't mean being permissive. It's not the same thing. Kids need affection from their parents and to be held, it's essential for their development, but they do not need parents to just say, do what you want to do including pulling your sister's hair and jumping on your baby brother.

This is a problem I've had for a while, like I was in college arguing with people on the internet about gay people and wondering why they had to be so dang homophobic. I did at least sort of stop doing that.

URG. I wish I hadn't seen two girls one cup. GROSS. The internet is filled with weird gross things.

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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
Because I need to know... It doesn't make any sense and I don't understand it.

If you really need to know, you're going to have to talk to people who actually believe that. Which you can't do here. And then you're going to have to listen to what they're saying.
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Synesthesia
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:
Because I need to know... It doesn't make any sense and I don't understand it.

If you really need to know, you're going to have to talk to people who actually believe that. Which you can't do here. And then you're going to have to listen to what they're saying.
Well, I have discussed with these folks on Amazon...

It's just that Pearl goes beyond spanking straight to pure unadulterated abuse.

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Raymond Arnold
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quote:
URG. I wish I hadn't seen two girls one cup. GROSS. The internet is filled with weird gross things.
Wait what?

Synth, this thread is looking less and less like an actual discussion of the merits of spanking and more like a place for you to vent about random things that are making you sad.

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Synesthesia
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quote:
Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:
quote:
URG. I wish I hadn't seen two girls one cup. GROSS. The internet is filled with weird gross things.
Wait what?

Synth, this thread is looking less and less like an actual discussion of the merits of spanking and more like a place for you to vent about random things that are making you sad.

Naw, someone up there mentioned it, and I wish I hadn't seen it. He was smart to avoid it. Smart smart smart. It's not sad, just EW!
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ClaudiaTherese
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quote:
Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:
Synth, this thread is looking less and less like an actual discussion of the merits of spanking and more like a place for you to vent about random things that are making you sad.

*grin

It's easier if you think of it as performance art.

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Synesthesia
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quote:
Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese:
quote:
Originally posted by Raymond Arnold:
Synth, this thread is looking less and less like an actual discussion of the merits of spanking and more like a place for you to vent about random things that are making you sad.

*grin

It's easier if you think of it as performance art.

[Confused]

My brain goes in random directions... Plus someone mentioned that video, so I was responding.

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ClaudiaTherese
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Synesthesia, there is much less randomness in thought when you post on Ornery or at [Gentle Christian Mothers], as someone else noted way back in this thread. Sentences connect, thoughts are completed, there isn't this tangentiality.

And that, of course, is fine. We can all express different sides of ourselves in different places and with different friends. I wasn't meaning to trample on your freedom to express yourself differently in different places. I do think the tangentiality has made it more difficult for some people here to see you as someone who could take on the responsibility of raising a child, but I think the more people know of the whole you, the less that would be a concern.

But the circularity and tangentiality as a pattern of discourse make for difficult conversations in a place where people as a rule engage one another in a more straightforward manner. To do otherwise routinely can make others feel you are making fun of them, or not showing basic respect for the conversation, or, in some cases, that you are damaged.

My best sense of you fits none of these, at least not after reading you elsewhere. My best sense is that of performance art, where you are happily and innocently indulging a side of yourself just for the joy of it, for your own pleasure, and maybe for the beauty of the creation. And, again, that's fine, and I think it should be welcome. But I do think it may be easier for some to deal with if they understand it in a different light than just a typical conversation for here.

---

Edited to add: I think I can see where this may come off as offensive, but I was weighing making a comment against what seemed to be a rising level of frustration. However, if it feels hurtful or wrong in any way, I'll happily edit at your discretion.

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Synesthesia
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quote:
Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese:
Synesthesia, there is much less randomness in thought when you post on Ornery or at GCM, as someone else noted way back in this thread. Sentences connect, thoughts are completed, there isn't this tangentiality.

And that, of course, is fine. We can all express different sides of ourselves in different places and with different friends. I wasn't meaning to trample on your freedom to express yourself differently in different places. I do think the tangentiality has made it more difficult for some people here to see you as someone who could take on the responsibility of raising a child, but I think the more people know of the whole you, the less that would be a concern.

But the circularity and tangentiality as a pattern of discourse make for difficult conversations in a place where people as a rule engage one another in a more straightforward manner. To do otherwise routinely can make others feel you are making fun of them, or not showing basic respect for the conversation, or, in some cases, that you are damaged.

My best sense of you fits none of these, at least not after reading you elsewhere. My best sense is that of performance art, where you are happily and innocently indulging a side of yourself just for the joy of it, for your own pleasure, and mayber for the beauty of the creation. And, again, that's fine, and I think it should be welcome. But I do think it may be easier for some to deal with if they understand it in a different light than just a typical conversation for here.

Sorry about that. You should see my facebook, an odd mixture of randomness and clarity.
Which is how I tend to be in real life too. If I get comfortable enough with people I will talk their ears off about moths and butterflies and Dir en grey. And I'll say something that makes people go [Confused] exactly where did that come from?

Also, it's not that random Samprimary mentioned that yucky video and stuff he is smart enough to avoid.

It's not hurtful. I think I need a bit more structure at times and less randomness so folks can understand what I'm getting at and so I can express myself better and clearer.

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ClaudiaTherese
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I think you are poetic. I would hate to lose that as part of this place, all the more less for you in your life.
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Synesthesia
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quote:
Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese:
I think you are poetic. I would hate to lose that as part of this place, all the more less for you in your life.

Awww. How nice [Big Grin]
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ClaudiaTherese
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Well, sincere. [Smile] You add much to the places you visit.
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Synesthesia
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Thanks [Smile]
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Glenn Arnold
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quote:
Originally posted by Papa Moose:
quote:
Originally posted by Glenn Arnold:
. . .but I do argue that you should have a plan in mind before your hand starts to move. If you're totally against spanking so you don't have that plan, I guarantee you it's going to be worse when you do hit.

I know this isn't the first time you said something in this vein, but this time it totally reminded me of arguments against abstinence-only teaching.
I think it's the same logic. Hope for the best, plan for the worst, kind of thing.
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Glenn Arnold
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quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
Glenn,
quote:
Did you really mean to say that? I certainly never intended to inflict humiliation. My purpose was to show that there was an absolute limit to what a child can get away with.
It's not about the ultimate intent, it's about the nature of the mechanism that you use to achieve it.

Did you intend to show [the lesson] by inflicting pain, or by inflicting humiliation? Or was the mechanism something else?

Tom was saying that people use spanking as a way to induce humiliation to achieve any number of ends, not that humiliation is the end.

Well, as far as that goes, spanking is associated with pain. I certainly don't associate it with humiliation.

And I can see that pain covers a range of nerve inputs, that at the minimum can be a reassuring pat, and climb to... well, it can climb excruciatingly high. But I don't see a lower bound to humiliation that isn't negative. So given the choice, I'd rather associate spanking with pain.

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dkw
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quote:
Originally posted by Glenn Arnold:
quote:
Originally posted by Papa Moose:
quote:
Originally posted by Glenn Arnold:
. . .but I do argue that you should have a plan in mind before your hand starts to move. If you're totally against spanking so you don't have that plan, I guarantee you it's going to be worse when you do hit.

I know this isn't the first time you said something in this vein, but this time it totally reminded me of arguments against abstinence-only teaching.
I think it's the same logic. Hope for the best, plan for the worst, kind of thing.
It seems to me more like telling a married man to carry condoms on business trips, because he's going to be unfaithful eventually, so he'd better plan ahead.
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dkw
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For clarity, yes almost everyone thinks that cheating on your spouse is morally wrong and not everyone thinks that spanking is. But many of the people who are "totally against" spanking do. Which is why I believe the comparison is appropriate.

If you know you're going to be tempted to do something that you believe is wrong the solution is to plan for how to deal with the temptation in the heat of the moment, not to plan how to accomplish the wrong.

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Papa Moose
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To continue the analogy, inasmuch as it holds, would you consider it wise to teach abstinence-only sex-ed to an adolescent who is "totally against" pre-marital sex?

[Edit -- or would you just prefer that he'd said "if" instead of "when"?]

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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
Originally posted by Synesthesia:
Well, I have discussed with these folks on Amazon...

It's just that Pearl goes beyond spanking straight to pure unadulterated abuse.

You're missing my point.

Over and over and over again, you keep asking how people can believe those things. But nobody here can answer you because AFAICT, nobody here believes that.

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Synesthesia
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quote:
Originally posted by Papa Moose:
To continue the analogy, inasmuch as it holds, would you consider it wise to teach abstinence-only sex-ed to an adolescent who is "totally against" pre-marital sex?

[Edit -- or would you just prefer that he'd said "if" instead of "when"?]

I'd say teach them safe sex anyway because it would be hard to resist some hot person going, you know you want all of this. I think I could hold back from hitting a small child easier than I could resist some irresistible tattooed fellow all inked and pretty. Which is why it's a good thing I am prepared with all of these prophylactics I keep collecting. *Random again*
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Synesthesia
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quote:
Originally posted by mr_porteiro_head:
quote:
Originally posted by Synesthesia:
Well, I have discussed with these folks on Amazon...

It's just that Pearl goes beyond spanking straight to pure unadulterated abuse.

You're missing my point.

Over and over and over again, you keep asking how people can believe those things. But nobody here can answer you because AFAICT, nobody here believes that.

Which is nice to know.
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dkw
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quote:
Originally posted by Papa Moose:
To continue the analogy, inasmuch as it holds, would you consider it wise to teach abstinence-only sex-ed to an adolescent who is "totally against" pre-marital sex?

No. But I think it would be wrong as part of the class to require said adolescent to plan what type of birth control they were going to use.

Likewise, if there were required parenting classes I wouldn't have a problem with people who were anti-spanking learning whatever information about it was in the curriculum.

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dkw
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quote:
Originally posted by Synesthesia:
I think I could hold back from hitting a small child easier than I could resist some irresistible tattooed fellow all inked and pretty.

Now here is where I do agree with Glenn -- this isn't enough. You do need strategies for what to do when you want to hit the kid. Because at some point you probably will want to. I just don't think those strategies have to involve actually hiting the kid.
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Synesthesia
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quote:
Originally posted by dkw:
quote:
Originally posted by Synesthesia:
I think I could hold back from hitting a small child easier than I could resist some irresistible tattooed fellow all inked and pretty.

Now here is where I do agree with Glenn -- this isn't enough. You do need strategies for what to do when you want to hit the kid. Because at some point you probably will want to. I just don't think those strategies have to involve actually hitting the kid.
Yeah. There's mentality to consider. A woman on GCM had a toddler that flushed money down the toilet and she didn't react in rage which I thought was so sweet and awesome because my mother would have hit me for sure over something like that.
This poster kept in mind that it was a little child, he didn't do it to on purpose. I'm hoping changing that punitive this child is doing this on purpose and is very bad mindset will help for starters, but more is definitely needed. Kids will test their parents and drive them crazy. But as an adult, I don't have to see it as a battle I have to win.

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dkw
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Actually, the more I think about this, Glenn, the more your argument does not make any sense to me. You’re talking about a situation where “the hand flies up” on its own, right? So the parent is tired, frustrated, angry -- losing control. And your claim is that if they have a controlled spanking plan in place they will be able to restrain themselves from impulsive hitting and implement the spanking plan. But if they have a non-spanking discipline plan in place they will not be able to restrain themselves? Why?
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malanthrop
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I would never spank a baby...infant. I only swatted my kids on the butt when they were old enough to understand they were doing wrong yet not old enough to rationalize with. I can't have a discussion with my dog about stealing food off my plate when I go in the other room, but even the dog knows he isn't suppose to do it. He gets a swat and locked out of the house for the day. I wouldn't swat a little puppy for doing the same thing. Not sure what is a "baby" but a 16 month old knows that sneaking into the cookie jar when mom isn't looking is wrong, hence the sneaking part. My daughter only got swatted between the ages of one and three. I stopped swatting her when my wife realized she was more scared of having dad talk to her. My talking to her gave her comprehension and caused her more pain in the form of guilt. Considering others doesn't come naturally to a child who's every demand has been met since the day she was born. Children eventually need to be taught not to throw a fit to get what they want. Throwing a fit for what they want is purely natural....a crying infant.
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Rakeesh
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quote:
He gets a swat and locked out of the house for the day.
Corporal punishment on dogs is actually a poor method for disciplining dogs, malanthrop. I'm looking forward to an honest and objective discussion on this topic!
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Glenn Arnold
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quote:
So the parent is tired, frustrated, angry -- losing control. And your claim is that if they have a controlled spanking plan in place they will be able to restrain themselves from impulsive hitting and implement the spanking plan. But if they have a non-spanking discipline plan in place they will not be able to restrain themselves? Why?
Because the non-spanking discipline plan didn't work. That's the whole point.

The plan at this point is not to control the spanking, but to control the situation. This is the situation where the parent is out of other responses. What do you do now, when you've sworn you won't hit the child, but you can't think of anything else to do? Let the child see that their parent isn't in control of themselves or the situation?

No, the plan is that "when the hand flies up" it doesn't come back down. Instead, you issue an ultimatum. "If you do that again, I will spank you." This is the nuclear option, so to speak, where the child knows that they've crossed a boundary that they can't retreat from. The ultimatum is what gives the parent a chance to remain in control, of themselves, and the situation. And it gives the child the chance to make a decision. It's the last chance. And in all likelihood, if you issue the ultimatum, you won't have to use it. Unless of course you've issued ultimatums before and haven't followed through.

So, as I said before, you should never issue a threat that you aren't willing to carry out. It doesn't have to be a hard spanking, or frightening, but it has to be real.

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malanthrop
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
quote:
He gets a swat and locked out of the house for the day.
Corporal punishment on dogs is actually a poor method for disciplining dogs, malanthrop. I'm looking forward to an honest and objective discussion on this topic!
Smearing their nose in the pile on the carpet, making sure their feces is driven into their nostrils and then kicking them out...never fails. They never do it again.

When it comes to food, you might be right. Attacking my plate of food when I'm in the other room is one lesson they haven't learned. To an animal, the food is worth the swat...maybe I need to hit them harder. [Smile] I'll try giving them a treat for not eating my child's sandwich when she turns her back.

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Synesthesia
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Uh, thing is, you can't assume a dog KNOWS not to take the sandwich.
Same with a 16 month old child. You can't automatically assume that they know better than to take a cookie. They are still young. They see a cookie in a cookie jar and think, YUM!, not, oh no, I shouldn't take that.
That takes more brain development. Too many people assume a toddler knows more than they do, but they don't consider development.
Bernie-Bunny for example didn't know he wasn't supposed to steal apples out of my backpack. He was just thinking, mmm. APPLE! Same with him getting into my room.

Man, I miss having that rabbit to drive me crazy. It was my responsibility to keep chocolate from his reach, and hide my apples. I could never hit that little dude.

Even when he peed on my bed. Which pissed me off so much.

But, yeah, non spanking takes a lot of effort and challenge, I think, more so than spanking does. Sometimes it requires walking away before that hand lifts then dealing with the child when one is a bit calmer.

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malanthrop
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If they don't know, why do they wait for you to turn your back? When you return they have their tail tucked between their legs or are blushing.

My daughter is really tough. Once when she was three and we were visiting my grandmothers house we warned her not to touch the glass on the pellet stove. Later that day, I noticed she was favoring one hand over the other. I looked at her finger and she had a huge blister. The kind of blister that would've made the average three year old scream. There was also a small finger print burned into the glass on the wood pellet stove front. That three year old stifled the scream and hid the blister because she was told not to touch it. Three year old children know what is right and wrong when their parents tell them and they know how to sneak and hide what they did. That blister taught me a lot about kids. She would scream bloody murder for much less but could tough it out, knowing she disobeyed.

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Rakeesh
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quote:
Smearing their nose in the pile on the carpet, making sure their feces is driven into their nostrils and then kicking them out...never fails. They never do it again.
That's not the type of punishment you mentioned before that I replied to. I don't actually know if what you're describing works or not.

quote:
To an animal, the food is worth the swat...maybe I need to hit them harder. [Smile]
Nothing quite as bracing as humor about violence to pets!
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Rakeesh
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quote:
She would scream bloody murder for much less but could tough it out, knowing she disobeyed.
As for me, it makes me wonder if she thought she would be punished further in addition to the blister - presumably by her father, as you've said she was afraid to speak to you - to the extent that she was more afraid of that than of getting relief for a very painful blister.

Or do you really imagine that what kept her from dealing with a scream-inducing blister was some sort of pride in not being caught disobeying?

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malanthrop
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
quote:
Smearing their nose in the pile on the carpet, making sure their feces is driven into their nostrils and then kicking them out...never fails. They never do it again.
That's not the type of punishment you mentioned before that I replied to. I don't actually know if what you're describing works or not.

quote:
To an animal, the food is worth the swat...maybe I need to hit them harder. [Smile]
Nothing quite as bracing as humor about violence to pets!

A plate full of people food for being bad outweighs a dog biscuit for being good. There is no better positive reinforcement for a dog than a t-bone steak and mashed potatoes. I don't abuse my animals...I love them. I have a Skipperke, Yorkie and Beagle, a bird and two hermit crabs and every squirrel in my yard eats out of my hand every day. The beagle is the one to watch around the plates. I know she'll never learn but she still gets a swat and locked outside. Beagles are stupid and have only brain power devoted to their noses and stomachs. Still, she gets a swat and ends up whining at the back door for a few hours.
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Synesthesia
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quote:
Originally posted by malanthrop:
If they don't know, why do they wait for you to turn your back? When you return they have their tail tucked between their legs or are blushing.

My daughter is really tough. Once when she was three and we were visiting my grandmothers house we warned her not to touch the glass on the pellet stove. Later that day, I noticed she was favoring one hand over the other. I looked at her finger and she had a huge blister. The kind of blister that would've made the average three year old scream. There was also a small finger print burned into the glass on the wood pellet stove front. That three year old stifled the scream and hid the blister because she was told not to touch it. Three year old children know what is right and wrong when their parents tell them and they know how to sneak and hide what they did. That blister taught me a lot about kids. She would scream bloody murder for much less but could tough it out, knowing she disobeyed.

Uh, that's kind of what I was talking about, assuming intent in a toddler that may not be the intent? They are three year olds, not crooks. You can't even make those assumptions with dogs and taking food, it's practically their instincts to go after food, even if it belongs to a higher up in the pack.
That doesn't mean it's right to hit 3 year olds or dogs, or anyone really.

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Synesthesia
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Hermit crabs are cute. I have 3.
I lost poor cute giant Cal to a surface molt though.

Cute Giant Calanthe...

But there are better ways to deal with dogs than hitting...

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malanthrop
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The burn sufficed for my daughter's punishment. It was the best lesson possible. After that she was almost too serious about our warnings. Ever since that day, if we told her it was dangerous,....she listened.

The fact is, the pain of the burn taught her a lesson. Sometimes being afraid of a spanking will keep their hands out of the cookie jar when your back is turned.

Dogs are different. I have three dogs that know better but one of them is ruled by her nose and stomach. Some men know better but are ruled by their penis and cheat on their wives....can you blame their nature?

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