Anyone up for taking this test? Scroll down to find the 20 characteristics and score them then. Of course, one could argue that psychopathic traits that are managed well by a person could be an advantage in a competitive society and might have advantages from an evolutionary point of view.
posted
They have to be managed very well. Psychopaths/sociopaths/persons with antisocial personality disorder will more often than not (usually always!) be their own worst enemy. The traits associated with this state are largely negative.
I've known a few, least of all one (with APD) who has pretty much the same name as me. Jesus, that caused me problems. But he was a classic example of an antisocial individual in action: prone to stealing, disorganized, irresponsible, unrealistic, endlessly prone to disastrous sexual relations, unable to manage things typically associated with functional living, such as maintaining a working car or holding down a job. And this guy is very, very intelligent.
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posted
If you're feeling like you're just a little too happy today and need to be brought down a notch or two, just check out a few threads in the forum linked at the bottom.
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posted
Wow. I couldn't be less of a psychopath. I took a test and it said, why are you taking this? You are NOT a psychopath.
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posted
From what I have heard, psychopaths are over-represented in occupations such as psychologists, emergency room doctors, lawyers, CEOs and politicians. Many of these people probably fall into line with what is known as charismatic psychopaths. Since even psychopaths feel love and need love (although empathy is somewhat lacking) can psychopathy actually be positive for certain occupations?
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posted
Where have you heard this? While I want to believe that most politicians are narcissistic, I have a hard time believing they are, even with the current lot. And why lawyers? Are you thinking of trial lawyers, or all? I think patent, tax, immigration, and other less heralded lawyers would argue the opposite.
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quote:Originally posted by michaele8: From what I have heard, psychopaths are over-represented in occupations such as psychologists, emergency room doctors, lawyers, CEOs and politicians.
you're going to have to source 'what you have heard,' otherwise I think it is prudent to dismiss it as conjecture. What studies show this overrepresentation? Where are you getting this, in particular, for psychologists and ER docs?
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posted
So that's one study from one person, where the results are based on conjecture and anecdotal observations. That's neither comprehensive nor convincing.
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I think what freaks people out is that their view of psychopathic personality triats is tainted by TV programs or movies. The psychopath is always associated with murder. Yet often the portrayal is false -- Dexter is more an Asperger than a psychopath while the guy in American Psycho is more schizophrenic and dillusional. Using the media as a way to show psychopathic personalities one could say some of our favorite characters display the characteristics of a psychopath -- Charlie and his mom in 2 1/2 men, Brea on Desperate Housewives and even House.
I will try to look up the information on occupations where psychopathy is over-represented.
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This strikes me as pretty much common sense - the sort of thing I'd assume until I saw evidence to the contrary rather than waiting for solid statistical evidence to back it up:
quote:while it may sound like a cynical joke, it’s a fact that psychopaths have a clear advantage in fields such as law, business, and politics. They have higher IQs on average than the general population. They take risks and aren’t fazed by failures. They know how to charm and manipulate. They’re ruthless. It could even be argued that the criteria used by corporations to find effective managers actually select specifically for psychopathic traits: characteristics such as charisma, self-centeredness, confidence, and dominance are highly correlated with the psychopathic personality, yet also highly sought after in potential leaders.
The point isn't that the majority or even large minority of politicians are psychopaths. (The article doesn't list any statistics either that I know of). But psychopaths tend to be good at particular things, and it makes sense that they'd gravitate to professions where those skills are useful.
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No, although I'm not sure which page you're referring to. In general I'm pretty confident I'm not a psychopath though.
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I glanced at it and the answers were pretty much all "no," so I didn't feel the need to sit down and actually take the test seriously.
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This strikes me as pretty much common sense - the sort of thing I'd assume until I saw evidence to the contrary rather than waiting for solid statistical evidence to back it up:
[QUOTE]while it may sound like a cynical joke, it’s a fact that psychopaths have a clear advantage in fields such as law, business, and politics.
the only issue I have with this is that it's only a very limited subset of psychopaths who will be able to exploit the advantages they have towards these fields. The rest are too impulsive, personally disorganized (a lot have major issues with executive functioning that's required to succeed in the necessary subfields and educational processes that vet you to become a lawyer or psychologist or w/e) and can't really plan out their life coherently over the short term.
Most psychopaths will just have a life of petty theft, social grifting, self-inflicted tumult, erratic low and mid level employment, doubly erratic and frequently disastrous sexual relationships.
most psychopathy is not advantageous. it really isn't. but it pays to have a sense of who they are, and you can get clued in from little things.
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quote:Most psychopaths will just have a life of petty theft, social grifting, self-inflicted tumult, erratic low and mid level employment, doubly erratic and frequently disastrous sexual relationships.
most psychopathy is not advantageous. it really isn't. but it pays to have a sense of who they are, and you can get clued in from little things.
Perhaps they go to either extreme -- corporate CEO or bank robber. I personally do not think that your assumptions are correct. A psychopath who has their eyes on wealth, fame. fortune or recognition can acheive goals and do quite well. Also, the vetting process you speak of is of little value if someone can analyze the process well. In fact, I once read a forum post (I know, might not be accurate but who knows?) where a participant had said that before he donated sperm he had to take a questionaire that sought to see where he was psychologically. The guy said he had taken tests before that had indicated he was both mildly psychopathic and schizotypal. He just answered any questions that related to these categories the way that the evaluator would want them to be answered.
I also know a guy who totally rejected the concept of re-habilitation for criminals who were psychopathic when he had to intern in a ward for criminals who had psychological disorders. He said the psychopaths could brilliantly answer questions just how the administers wanted them answered and appear totally harmless.
As for besinesspeople, marketers, lawyers, etc. if your object is to win and to manipulate then psychopathic traits are a great asset.
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quote:They have higher IQs on average than the general population. They take risks and aren’t fazed by failures. They know how to charm and manipulate. They’re ruthless. It could even be argued that the criteria used by corporations to find effective managers actually select specifically for psychopathic traits: characteristics such as charisma, self-centeredness, confidence, and dominance are highly correlated with the psychopathic personality, yet also highly sought after in potential leaders.
Your description of a psychopath is exactly the kind of person I am attracted to. Now I understand why they're so dangerous!
quote:Since even psychopaths feel love and need love (although empathy is somewhat lacking)
Do they? I had the impression that they didn't, really, because empathy is a prerequisite for love and bonding. But on second thought I think you may be right-- after all, there are degrees to which people have empathy, and it's unlikely that someone would have none-- just less than the average person, which could be a significant advantage in life.
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quote:Originally posted by michaele8: Perhaps they go to either extreme -- corporate CEO or bank robber. I personally do not think that your assumptions are correct.
Sorry, but I'm not running off of assumptions. I simply have studied APD alongside all other personality disorders, and I know where most people with psychopathy end up, and I know that for the great great majority of them, their affliction is more a burden and a curse than an asset. It is only within a specific subset of psychopaths that you will see people who are given more benefit than problem from their condition because they are for whatever reason spared the condition's well-known tendencies towards shortsightedness, impulsiveness, irresponsibility, and pathologically non-beneficial acts.
A blanket statement like 'psychopathy is a great asset' is like making the statement 'aspbergers is a great asset' — something that a lot of people with high functioning autistic spectrum disorders will actually say. It's similarly untrue; most aspeis are just socially and personally awkward and mired in overly pedantic and personal fixations that consume their time and make communication with their peers more difficult. Rarely is their savant-ism or focus (regularly considered the beneficial side effect of high functioning autism) going to provide culturally beneficial traits that clearly surpasses their expression of culturally non-beneficial traits. The same is true of persons with APD/psychopathy. MOST of them are burdened by the condition rather than rendered more likely to do well in life.
quote:Also, the vetting process you speak of is of little value if someone can analyze the process well. In fact, I once read a forum post (I know, might not be accurate but who knows?) where a participant had said that before he donated sperm he had to take a questionaire that sought to see where he was psychologically. The guy said he had taken tests before that had indicated he was both mildly psychopathic and schizotypal. He just answered any questions that related to these categories the way that the evaluator would want them to be answered.
Sorry, this comes off as quite irrelevant an example. you're not passing the bar or getting a PhD in psychology or passing medical school just by answering the questions the way you think they want to be answered. For the subset who can utilize superficial charm and not be impacted by the downright disastrous impacts that APD's effects on executive functioning/long term planning/ability to control impulsiveness and restlessness will have in relations to things such as the ability to study for tests and do homework, it's beneficial. For the rest, they're not going to trick their way into being a lawyer or a psychologist.
quote:I also know a guy who totally rejected the concept of re-habilitation for criminals who were psychopathic when he had to intern in a ward for criminals who had psychological disorders. He said the psychopaths could brilliantly answer questions just how the administers wanted them answered and appear totally harmless.
Good for them. They're still in prison. "Can sometimes talk their way out of prison" is not a great indicator of how successful psychopathy can make you. A truly beneficial condition is not one that is going to leave such a large representation in prison in the first place.
Still waiting for anything I can digest about supposed over-representation of psychopaths in medical/psychological/legal fields, etc.
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posted
Samprimary, I think you have a view of such individuals that is tainted by a fixation on the weaknesses and not the strengths. Sure, you can't trick your way to gaining an advanced degree, but if a person is desirous of gaining the power, prestige and fame that can be associated with a particular goal then they can often force themselves to put in the necessary effort. And yes, in a way many so-called disorders have assets. Some have speculated that Newton and Einstein were Aspergers. Perhaps the trait of diving into a particular area of study (obsession) is a great benefit. Creativity is associated with schizotypal personalities. And psychopaths devoted to success and recognition have probably benefited many people throughout history. I believe God has a reason for so many people having so-called disorders and perhaps it is only when these traits are used unwisely that problems occur.
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Are you two arguing the same point? Without judging either of the arguments, it appears that michaele8 is arguing that psychopaths are overrepresented in certain fields while Samprimary is arguing that psychopaths in most cases do badly at life. It is possible that both statements are true without contradiction. Just sayin'
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You know TomDavidson, I would have to answer no. Now if I am not, then I am being honest. If I were a psychopath, I would either avoid answering the question or say no as well. Now that is not to say I don't see some character traits that are in my friends, or family, that could be interpreted by some who hold that it really is a valid psychological condition as fitting the criteria.
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quote:Originally posted by michaele8: Samprimary, I think you have a view of such individuals that is tainted by a fixation on the weaknesses and not the strengths.
I have a view of such individuals which is 'tainted' with an educated, methodological understanding of where most psychopaths end up in life and the fact that for the vast majority of psychopaths, their condition will rule their lives in negative, non-beneficial ways.
You are more or less cherrypicking concepts that support a purely faith-based concept that you desire to see support for: the idea that God is giving psychopathy to individuals for a reason and that negative expression of the condition is merely due to the 'unwise' use of such godly afflictions.
How am I to respond to that? There's no scientific dialogue that can take place over that idea. I might as well say "I believe that psychopathy is created by the ghosts of dead indians."
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quote:Originally posted by Mucus: It is possible that both statements are true without contradiction. Just sayin'
That's why I'm asking for anything at all that can back up the assertion of psychopathic over-representation of the claimed fields.
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quote:Now if I am not, then I am being honest. If I were a psychopath, I would either avoid answering the question or say no as well.
That's not necessarily true, of course. If you were an intelligent psychopath, you'd understand that answering "yes" to that question has little downside on an Internet forum.
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quote:I might as well say "I believe that psychopathy is created by the ghosts of dead indians."
Just so you know, Sam, this is awesome. I was having a conversation about Amish space pirates earlier today, and I wish we could have worked Indian ghosts in there somehow.
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quote:Originally posted by Mucus: It is possible that both statements are true without contradiction. Just sayin'
That's why I'm asking for anything at all that can back up the assertion of psychopathic over-representation of the claimed fields.
I would have to say that anyone who actually has serious doubts about lackers-of-empathy being overrepresented in and around the top levels of government/business/law is really idealistic.
Whether that lack of empathy has been present since birth/early childhood, or whether it is a result of simply tremendous ambition/greed, may be another question. However....the point stands, I think.
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posted
Sam's point is that the psychopathic means to achieve a lack of empathy is usually countered by impulsiveness which would curtail the long term planning necessary to succeed in government/business/law. What I'm not sure about is what percentage of psychopaths DON'T suffer so terribly from that, and how government/business/law compare with other occupations in which those psychopaths might be attracted to. Overrepresented doesn't mean "filled to the brim," it just means somewhat higher than the normal percentage you'd find in the general population, and I still think it is conceivable that that is the case here.
But I don't feel like doing the studying and critical thinking necessary to decide for sure, so I'm gonna let it drop.
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quote:Originally posted by steven: Whether that lack of empathy has been present since birth/early childhood, or whether it is a result of simply tremendous ambition/greed, may be another question. However....the point stands, I think.
you don't acquire psychopathy in adulthood by being greedy and ambitious.
The point also stands that I'm not going to go along with unsubstantiated assumptions about representation of psychopathy in fields such as psychology, etc.
Somebody wants to make that claim, they can back it up.
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This illustrates what I think may lead psychopathic people to high status, high stimulation, jobs. I believe it was a documentary on psychopaths that I saw the jobs of emergency room doctors, lawyers and several other occupations that had much higher than average representation of psychopaths than the general population. I believe psychopaths can be made -- but early in childhood. I certainly believe that more sensitive children raised in harsh environments can use psychopathy as a defense mechanism. This could be the reason even some psychopathic seriel killers were loving and devoted fathers. Part of empahty is to be able to project yourself into other people's shoes and so they can identify with their children, but not with other people -- especially if most of their experiences with people have involved them being hurt by them. As for people being able to behave as psychopaths, just look at Japans most immenent biologists who worked at Unit 731. These guys did things that were more inhuman than any torturer in the Middle Ages. Were they psychopathic? Who knows? A disciplined psychopath can make it through an MBA program, law school or medical school. All it takes is a desire for the rewards at the end of the program.
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posted
Read lots of information on sub-clinical psychopathic personality. What's the point you are trying to make -- that all psychopaths are Hannibal Lector or that politicians are not psychopathic?
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quote:Originally posted by steven: Whether that lack of empathy has been present since birth/early childhood, or whether it is a result of simply tremendous ambition/greed, may be another question. However....the point stands, I think.
you don't acquire psychopathy in adulthood by being greedy and ambitious.
The point also stands that I'm not going to go along with unsubstantiated assumptions about representation of psychopathy in fields such as psychology, etc.
Somebody wants to make that claim, they can back it up.
I didn't think I needed scientific proof to make the assertion that people in power are more narcissistic and less capable of empathy than the average person. Do I?
I also didn't make the assertion that people acquired psychopathy in adulthood. Let me make myself more clear. I am positing the possibility that people who are predisposed to extreme greed/ambition, for whatever reason, are less likely to display empathy. Perhaps some such people still have a little empathy, but greed-stimulating conditions (like a totally unregulated free market, and/or the presence of gullible people with lots of money), plus personal tendencies, combine to make this empathy not visible. Since it's not really often possible to get rich/powerful in childhood, their empathy may still show a little when they are still children, but functionally disappear during adulthood, given certain circumstances. You know, maybe.
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quote:I didn't think I needed scientific proof to make the assertion that people in power are more narcissistic and less capable of empathy than the average person. Do I?
Narcissistic personality disorder is not equivalent to antisocial personality disorder (psychopathy). 'less capable of empathy' is not psychopathy. Here, we are talking about psychopathy. You seem to be talking about something else entirely.
"people in power are more likely to be dicks" seems like the long and short of it, and while an interesting hypothesis, I'm not talking to people's ideas. I'm trying to get at the meat of claims that have already been made.
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posted
Samprimary, what do you see as the defining characteristics that seperate narissistic personality disorder from psychopathy?
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quote:This illustrates what I think may lead psychopathic people to high status, high stimulation, jobs.
have you read that report, or just the abstract?
quote:Originally posted by michaele8: Read lots of information on sub-clinical psychopathic personality.
That's nice. have you read that report, or did you just find and repost the abstract?
quote:What's the point you are trying to make -- that all psychopaths are Hannibal Lector or that politicians are not psychopathic?
My point is actually not even close to either of the above choices and is easily deduced by reading the multiple times at which I have reinforced and clarified my actual position in this thread.
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quote:Originally posted by michaele8: Samprimary, what do you see as the defining characteristics that seperate narissistic personality disorder from psychopathy?
1. Find a Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, fourth edition (the DSM-IV).
2. Find and turn to the pages regarding personality disorders.
3. Compare Narcissistic Personality Disorder versus Antisocial Personality Disorder. Where Antisocial Personality Disorder, effectively the diagnostic criteria encompassing what is also labeled psychopathy and sociopathy, often contains elements of narcissism as a patterned diagnostic criteria of APD, it's not psychopathy.
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quote:The distinction between psychopathy and ASPD is of considerable significance to the mental health and criminal justice systems. Unfortunately, it is a distinction that is often blurred, not only in the minds of many clinicians but in the latest edition of DSM-IV. Source of the Problem Traditionally, affective and interpersonal traits such as egocentricity, deceit, shallow affect, manipulativeness, selfishness, and lack of empathy, guilt or remorse, have played a central role in the conceptualization and diagnosis of psychopathy (Cleckley; Hare 1993; in press); Widiger and Corbitt). In 1980 this tradition was broken with the publication of DSM-III. Psychopathy- renamed antisocial personality disorder- was now defined by persistent violations of social norms, including lying, stealing, truancy, inconsistent work behavior and traffic arrests. Among the reasons given for this dramatic shift away from the use of clinical inferences were that personality traits are difficult to measure reliably, and that it is easier to agree on the behaviors that typify a disorder than on the reasons why they occur. The result was a diagnostic category with good reliability but dubious validity, a category that lacked congruence with other, well-established conceptions of psychopathy. This "construct drift" was not intentional but rather the unforeseen result of reliance on a fixed set of behavioral indicators that simply did not provide adequate coverage of the construct they were designed to measure. The problems with DSM-III and its 1987 revision (DSM-III-R) were widely discussed in the clinical and research literature (Widiger and Corbitt). Much of the debate concerned the absence of personality traits in the diagnosis of ASPD, an omission that allowed antisocial individuals with completely different personalities, attitudes and motivations to share the same diagnosis. At the same time, there was mounting evidence that the criteria for ASPD defined a disorder that was more artifactual than "real" (Livesley and Schroeder).
So the DSM-1V has some flaws that make it appear that APD and psychopathy are the same, as well as making the criteria more behavioral based. The bad thing about that is that if you have a psychopath that never gets into trouble with the law, they might miss being identified even if they meet the personality profile. Now as for narcissism, could you please list the differences between Hare's or Checkley's criteria (PCL-R) for psychopathy and the symptoms of narcissistic personality disorder?
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quote:So the DSM-1V has some flaws that make it appear that APD and psychopathy are the same, as well as making the criteria more behavioral based.
The article you have dug up to present here is over ten years old and is very clearly talking about flaws in the DSM third edition (DSM-III). As you may have noted, I'm asking you to pick up the DSM fourth edition. Much of the 'debate concerning the absence of personality traits' in the diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder that you are presenting here as relevant to this discussion is outmoded and irrelevant to what I asked you to do by literally over a decade.
quote:The bad thing about that is that if you have a psychopath that never gets into trouble with the law, they might miss being identified even if they meet the personality profile.
Behavioral diagnostic criteria encompasses all known trends that are patterned in such a way as to create effective measures for diagnosis. One such trend in psychopathy is criminality. It is not an obligate criteria.
quote:Now as for narcissism, could you please list the differences between Hare's or Checkley's criteria (PCL-R) for psychopathy and the symptoms of narcissistic personality disorder?
Perhaps I could. Perhaps you could also answer questions I have now rendered and re-rendered to you in bold, as opposed to completely bypassing them?
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posted
Okay. It is obvious that michaele8 is just not going to answer your questions. What he is doing is googling stuff and finding whatever he thinks is most appliable as a counter and then just throwing it at you and expecting you to dissect it for him under the assumption that he can say he is right until you do.
This is why he does not want to say that he just linked an abstract to you without actually having any way to access or read the report.
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