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I think that what he means is that without any kind of source, since there was no reference to the things being said in the article in question, that the assumption would have to be that it was all lies. Not that a source necessarily makes it true. Although it could be worded better.
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The cruelty is common. I'm proud of my children for their self confidence. Their self confidence came from good parenting. My daughter get's picked on for having a gap in between her front teeth. She's proud of her gap because she like's being like her daddy. Although she is picked on about it, she doesn't want braces...she likes to be like me.
All children are picked on in school. The one's that are picked on the most are the one's offended the most. All kid's get negative comments. The chronically tormented have come from the worst families. If my daughter was abused, I would know and I would address the situation.
Instead of charging the cruel students for her suicide, they might consider charging the parents. The parents failed to teach her the realities of the world. Her parents weren't paying attention to her pain and didn't teach her how to be an individual. Of course, even the losing team gets a trophy and students get A's for effort these days.
Reality....my son plays in a league where everyone gets a trophy. My six year old son still knows whether his team won or lost and who is good and who sucks. My son's team sucks but he's ok with it, his parents are proud of him.
posted
As usual, you are full of it. But it's ok, you seem fine with it.
Thank God most of the world isn't you though.
I think her parents are going though enough without charging them with anything. Not to mention having a child who killed themselves for any reason is more punishment that anyone deserves.
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Neither the parents nor the students are to blame for her suicide. What if she didn't kill herself? Would you charge the others for "being mean". What if their "meanness" didn't matter because she had self confidence?
Counselors constantly remind people that no one can "make me" anything. She can no more say "You made me kill myself" than a married woman can say "You made me cheat on you". Both may be tormented and angry. The healthy woman "divorces" herself from the situation.
Abused children turn into abusers and children of victims will be victims. Who's to blame? Maybe they should charge the parents of the mean kids. The mean kids stopped tormenting the kids who refused to be victims.
My confusion in this situation is this:
It wasn't the action of the offender that resulted in the prosecution of the offender but the reaction of the offended that resulted in the prosecution.
Say a woman is married to an abusive man or perhaps an impotent man. She has sex with another man and gets a fatal STD. Is the result of her action his fault? Can you prosecute the impotent husband for his wife's fatal std? After all, if he wasn't such a jerk or he could perform sexually, she wouldn't have done what she did.
quote:Originally posted by Synesthesia: Uh, it's not that simple.
You're simple answer isn't sufficient.
Are we ready to prosecute the offender based upon the reaction of the offended?
If I say to someone, "You're a waste of oxygen and would be better off dead".....should I be prosecuted if they kill themselves?
I'm not really all that surprised. Quite convenient timing, really. Teenagers kill themselves all the time,...for this very reason. Speech is inciteful. Bullie's are to blame for suicide and Rush Limbaugh is to blame for the next Timothy McVeigh.
We need to criminalize people for "inciting" others. Glenn Beck is inciting insurrection. Of course, he isn't an insurrectionist, he just inspires the Hutaree. Of course the bullies aren't murders, they just inspire suicide. We need to criminalize speech that inspires bad things.
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Malanthrop, there is a huge difference between a simple insult and behavior that involves psychological and physical torture. You seem to dismiss the actions of the perpetrators yet I think you would have a totally different attitude if, when you went to work, or out for recreational activities, you had to look over your shoulder 24/7 for fear of some bully attacking you. I fear this sugar-coating of violence is far too commonly employed by school administrators whose job it is to make everything look as if it is perfect in their little kingdoms, especially when taking action in the defense of the outsider kids will not gain you any political points in the long run.
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Violence? If my child was a victim of school violence, I would be at the school the next day. 24X7? Did her parents submit her to the same tyranny? All school children spend at least 16 hours a day at home. My daughter shrugs off the words of bullies,...she spends 2/3d's her life with me.
She know's the bullies usually have the lowest grades in the class. I drive by the government housing and remind her that, this is where the bully lives. She's near the top of her class in every area. My daughter actually feels sorry for the bully. When they pick on her, she has pity for them. She understands that they have a 24X7 horrible life.
As you said, "you had to look over your shoulder 24/7 for fear of some bully attacking you".........these are the bullies. The bullies in school live in this 24X7 horrible circumstance. They live in the projects. The bully's mother is a drunk who might abuse him at any moment, 24X7. My kids walk away from and feel sorry for bully's. I've taught my kids that the bully is someone to be pitied.
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Mal, read the relevant article. The bullies were using social media to continue to harass and bully the girl long after she'd already gone home. 24/7 isn't an unfair way to describe that kind of stalker-ish bullying.
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: Are we ready to prosecute the offender based upon the reaction of the offended?
Isn't that basically the difference between attempted murder and murder? We find that to be a resonable difference. Why not stalking that doesn't lead to harm and stalking that does as subclasses like we have for murder?
As for what other people can make you do, all I can say is if the girl suffered from depression, their actions altered her brain chemistry until death seemed like a perfectly reasonable response. Every fututre she attempted to consider would have been impossible for her. There would have been a terrifying gray fog descending over every path she could conceive - if she wasn't so far gone that she could still ask "What if".
The most recent research I've seen suggests that depression is caused by a nerve cluster being damaged. The seretonin works by regenerating the nerves. If so, that would make depression brain damage that can be inflicted by stress. And in my personal experience, always stress caused by other people who can't be easily avoided. A parent, a boss, a hacker who compromises thousands of cards that need to be reissued, a programmer who messes up a line of code that posts hundreds of transactions I have to fix by hand.
If I got out of evey situation that stressed me to depression, I'd have runaway from home repeatedly, not have married my husband, and be chronically unemployed. Unfortunately, life is something of a crap shoot. You have to guess what you can get through, and sometimes you're wrong.
Maybe the girl thought if she could hang on until summer they'd get bored. Maybe the depression got too deep before then. I don't know. But having been there, I'm perfectly comfortable saying it was a lot more other peoples' fault than hers. Suicide peopbably seemed like the last option she had to make all the pain stop.
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Mal, I understand what you are saying a little better after your post. I don't agree, really, but you do have a point. Kids have to learn to be thick skinned, and how to deal with these types of people in every day life.
However, there is a difference between sexual assault and normal bullying. There is a difference between being a kid and being mean some of the time, and going through what thsi girl went through.
I am NOT saying the adults or the kids involved should be charged with murder, but just like an adult who throws a punch these kids should face assault charges.
It's time we stop letting these types of things go with a shrug and a statement of how "boys will be boys", or " she needs to learn how to deal with it".
They KNEW what they were doing wasn't right, and they knew enough to try and hide it. They went after her on multiple levels, and they showed a careless disregard for the risks involved.
This poor girl took her own life, and that was despite the fact that she had a loving family, the support of her mother, and her whole future ahead of her. Blaming her parents for not preparing her for this type of abuse is moronic. You have no idea what her mother did or didn't do, no idea what type of mental state this girl was in, and no idea exactly what was done to her.
Blame the victim if you want. It only reinforces the fact that you have no clue what you are talking about.
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Wow, mal, I don't know how you could possibly be more insulting, arrogant, and wrong all at the same time.
First of all, not all kids who get bullied at school have been parented badly. Speaking from personal experience, there is a lot more in the child's temperament, which has nothing to do with parenting. I didn't understand it at the time, but I was picked on because I was shy and because I was prone to internalizing negative messages. I actually cried in front of the bullies because I had the mistaken idea that if they saw me cry, they would realize they were hurting me and stop. At the time, I couldn't conceive of a human being who actually gets a rush off of having the power to make someone cry. I still have trouble with the idea, but I at least know, intellectually, that it's true.
I love the parents who talk about instilling confidence into their children as if it's just that easy. Oh, and if MY child were bullied, I would do....(whatever). Good for you! But your daughters, confident as they are, have NEVER been bullied. Getting teased for a gap tooth is not in any way the same thing as going to school day after day, afraid for your personal safety and sanity, praying just not to be noticed because then you'll at least have a peaceful day.
The fact that you have no concept of the difference between bullying and teasing means you are not qualified to speak on this subject, on the actions of the offenders, and definitely not qualified to talk about the matter of the girl who committed suicide.
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And while we're on the subjects of parents' role in all of this...parents are only human. Even a loving parent can only do so much. What happens when a loving parent approaches school officials and is told that this is just normal teenage behavior? Or just a phase she's going through? Do we expect all parents to be experts in psychology, when even psychologists are to blame for giving them bull**** information?
I'm not saying these kids need to be charged with murder. Ultimately, the girl did kill herself, but they were intentionally and willfully malicious. They knowingly and purposefully inflicted harm. They knew what they were doing and kept at it. That is criminal behavior. I don't know what the consequences should be, but there sure as heck should be some. Maybe next time school officials will think to inflict those consequences before it's too late.
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quote:The fact that you have no concept of the difference between bullying and teasing means you are not qualified to speak on this subject, on the actions of the offenders, and definitely not qualified to talk about the matter of the girl who committed suicide.
quote:Wow, mal, I don't know how you could possibly be more insulting, arrogant, and wrong all at the same time.
Ahh, so you take the wiser and more adult option of ignoring what he says as a rule, then? Because he, he's just getting started being insulting, arrogant, and wrong simultaneously. I think he's stretching getting ready for the big game, or something.
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quote:The fact that you have no concept of the difference between bullying and teasing means you are not qualified to speak on this subject, on the actions of the offenders, and definitely not qualified to talk about the matter of the girl who committed suicide.
Exactly.
This raises an interesting question. What is the difference between bullying and teasing? Is it the kind of acts or is it severity, frequency, and persistence? Is it the objectives? I've noticed that there is a tendency in recent years to label things "bullying" that would have been called "teasing", or "picking on someone" back in the day.
In my mind, bullying implies intimidation with the objective of coercing a person to do something they would not otherwise do. It doesn't really matter whether the person is using physical, emotional or other means to intimidate, the key factor is that their goal is to control through intimidation.
Taken from that perspective, one of the most common forms of bullying in schools is the use of social pressure to stop people from befriending or sticking up for the bullies main target. Lots of kids will join in the harassment because they are afraid that if they don't, they will become the target.
I think the term bullying gets used too much when harassment would be more accurate and perhaps does not get used enough to describe most of emotional bullying we sometimes call "peer pressure".
Where were all the other kids in this high school who allegedly all knew about this criminal harassment? Why didn't any of them stand up for her and befriend her? Were they caught up in their own world of friends, callous or just afraid of becoming the mean girls next target and unwilling to stick their neck out for a new girl.
When I was in middle school, I was frequently the target of various types of teasing and harassment (nothing as extreme as this story but still hurtful). One day when a group of girls was making fun of me, one boy stood up and called them out. He was a good looking, smart well liked guy. It stopped them dead in their tracks. For a minute, they tried to argue that they weren't doing anything wrong, that what they were saying was just the truth, but he stood his ground. To this day, I see it as one of the kindest and bravest things I've seen a middle schooler do.
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Most of the time if is in the eye of the beholder, I think. It's a matter of degree. I say things to my friends teasing them that would be taken by other friends as horrible and mean things.....but the first group of friends have come backs that crack me up. It isn't bullying, or going too far with them because for us it can be a game, and it's funny.
But for some others it would be a nightmare....and when I was younger I couldn't always tell who understood it was teasing and who was offended. I never picked on people too bad, but my natural sense of humor is dry and sarcastic. Some people were offended easily, and part of that was more than likely my own attitude.
The fact is that there is difference between teasing and bullying, but it isn't always obvious which is which from the outside.
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quote:Originally posted by Kwea: The fact is that there is difference between teasing and bullying, but it isn't always obvious which is which from the outside.
True. I tend to think of bullying (on the part of the bully) as behaviors intended to inflict harm. The intent is important. Bullies want to cause pain.
But I think that people can feel bullied without this clear malicious behavior going on all the time. Junior high (or middle school) is a lousy time when everyone is trying to figure out the social game and how they fit into the big picture. I think it's possible for some people to get the blunt end of a lot of casual negativity, especially if they're "that kid" -- the nerd or outcast every school seems to have.
Actually, I think this happened to me. There were a few actual bullies I can think of, looking back, but a lot of the bullying I experienced on a daily basis was from people who echoed the nastiness of others in an attempt to fit in, who laughed at the cruelty, or who simply failed to stand up for what was right. I remember running into a girl outside of school once -- someone who had taunted and hurt me. We met at a store when no other kids were around and had a very pleasant conversation. That was a real wake-up moment for me, because I realized that she wasn't a mean person at all. She was just weak.
So I guess that's a long way of saying that yeah, there can be a fine line between teasing and bullying sometimes. I don't think there is in the case we've been discussing, however. The details made me pretty sick. I do wonder if any of the teens arrested were weak tag-alongs, afraid to stand up for what was right, but given the degree to which they were hurting this girl, I'm not sure it matters.
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quote:True. I tend to think of bullying (on the part of the bully) as behaviors intended to inflict harm. The intent is important. Bullies want to cause pain.
It's also important to remember that they want to cause pain (emotional or physical) because they like it. It doesn't make them evil sadists, necessarily (speaking generally), but...bullies like the payoff. If we're talking a 'dedicated' bully, they're not just doing it because they're bored. Therefore the 'get a thick skin and ignore them' advice...well, it seems pretty crappy to me, and I haven't known it to be very effective, ever, really. Unless the person is willing to almost completely shut down, and even then it's no guarantee.
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quote:Actually, I think this happened to me. There were a few actual bullies I can think of, looking back, but a lot of the bullying I experienced on a daily basis was from people who echoed the nastiness of others in an attempt to fit in, who laughed at the cruelty, or who simply failed to stand up for what was right. I remember running into a girl outside of school once -- someone who had taunted and hurt me. We met at a store when no other kids were around and had a very pleasant conversation. That was a real wake-up moment for me, because I realized that she wasn't a mean person at all. She was just weak.
Yes. I was bullied/teased/ostracized/whatever you want to call it quite a bit as a child, and while I didn't have an illuminating moment like you did, as I got older I came to realize that most of the kids didn't hate me, and they didn't even particularly want to hurt me. They just joined the mob mentality, and didn't think much about it. It made them part of the group to exclude somebody else from the group. There are always only a few malicious ones, and the rest are just hangers-on... not that it particularly matters, because it actually hurt more to be ignored than to be teased. But yeah. When there's a group of people ganging up against a few, I wouldn't characterize most of those people as malicious, just weak. And that's the key to not letting them hurt you or your self esteem, I think... realizing that they're just weak, and not worth your tears. That's why childhood is tough-- it's the time when less people are strong enough to avoid mob mentality, and the targets aren't experienced enough in life to shrug it off.
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quote:Originally posted by Christine: Wow, mal, I don't know how you could possibly be more insulting, arrogant, and wrong all at the same time.
First of all, not all kids who get bullied at school have been parented badly. Speaking from personal experience, there is a lot more in the child's temperament, which has nothing to do with parenting. I didn't understand it at the time, but I was picked on because I was shy and because I was prone to internalizing negative messages. I actually cried in front of the bullies because I had the mistaken idea that if they saw me cry, they would realize they were hurting me and stop. At the time, I couldn't conceive of a human being who actually gets a rush off of having the power to make someone cry. I still have trouble with the idea, but I at least know, intellectually, that it's true.
I love the parents who talk about instilling confidence into their children as if it's just that easy. Oh, and if MY child were bullied, I would do....(whatever). Good for you! But your daughters, confident as they are, have NEVER been bullied. Getting teased for a gap tooth is not in any way the same thing as going to school day after day, afraid for your personal safety and sanity, praying just not to be noticed because then you'll at least have a peaceful day.
The fact that you have no concept of the difference between bullying and teasing means you are not qualified to speak on this subject, on the actions of the offenders, and definitely not qualified to talk about the matter of the girl who committed suicide.
If my daughter "cried" when she was teased the teasing would never stop and become bullying. A child's reaction has an impact on it. Children can be very cruel and a victim will only be victimized. The bully is shamed when the other kid laughs and walks away and encouraged when she cries.
I know quite a bit about being bullied. My family moved from east coast to west coast numerous times. I was beat up in Rhode Island every day at the bus stop for "sounding like a snob - the news man". When we moved back to Washington, I was bullied for talking funny and put in speech therapy for having an east coast accent. As if silent R's is an impediment. Not to mention the economic reasons for being bullied.
The school and parents failed. Kids will be kids....they can be cruel. It's up to the school and families to stop the behavior. Maybe her parents didn't realize what was going on. Their daughter was too busy spending all her time on the computer. She was obviously obsessed with the bullying. She had to go to school, she didn't have to log into Face Book. Social media is also a choice. She probably responded to them online, which kept it alive.
I'm sure I am considered offensive and disagreeable to many here. If the Hatrack community wants me to go away, all they have to do is stop responding. I'll get bored and move on.
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quote:If my daughter "cried" when she was teased the teasing would never stop and become bullying. A child's reaction has an impact on it. Children can be very cruel and a victim will only be victimized. The bully is shamed when the other kid laughs and walks away and encouraged when she cries.
That's true, but how are kids expected to know that? That kind of knowledge about human nature is gained from life experience. You can tell that to your child and she'll know it intellectually, but she won't really know it on an instinctual level until she's seen enough of life to know it through experience. And not everyone's naturally confident.
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quote:If my daughter "cried" when she was teased the teasing would never stop and become bullying. A child's reaction has an impact on it. Children can be very cruel and a victim will only be victimized. The bully is shamed when the other kid laughs and walks away and encouraged when she cries.
This is not always what happens. Your narrow personal life experiences cannot be projected onto the entire world as The Way Things Are.
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I guess this is nature vs nurture. My wife and I were both shy children, yet our kids are confident. Are they naturally confident or did we instill in them confidence? All their lives we have praised them, told them they were smart and wonderful.
Teenagers are especially volatile. I remember acting like I was sick for having a huge zit on my forehead or spending an inordinate matter of time worrying that my pants didn't match my shirt or trying to figure out if I already wore this shirt this week.
Teenagers kill themselves for being dumped by their first boyfriend or not making the football team. My kids are confident now, but what is important to them will certainly get skewed later on.
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That's one way to completely dodge criticisms that your experiences are not the way things are, I suppose.
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Children are picked on in every school in the nation. The only reason we're discussing this one is, she killed herself.
The teenage girls killing themselves for being dumped far outnumber the likes of this one. In fact, the number of hormonally depressed teenagers that kill themselves for no apparent reason, far outnumber the likes of this one.
Maybe she was like the rest, with an extra straw to break the camel's back. It's the straw's fault.
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No. Even if I granted your premise - and as usual, malanthrop, you have no way at all of knowing if you're right, that more teenage girls kill themselves over being dumped than being cruelly and repeatedly bullied - the suicide still wouldn't be the fault of the last thing that led to it. The responsibility would be shared.
The bullies were part of that, and thus bear some responsibility.
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What aspect of this suicide makes it news worthy?
Common news isn't news. When I lived in Chicago, babies were thrown out of high rise windows and ugly women disappeared all the time. A pretty white college girl comes up missing and it's national news, for months. Teen suicide is common. Two kids killed themselves in my high school. They were the unknown motivation kind. Of course, it might be the teacher's fault since that one last "F" drove them to it.
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quote:What aspect of this suicide makes it news worthy?
That's self-evident to people who don't think the solution to bullying is, "Laugh and then walk away," in all cases: in our schools, sometimes not enough is done to deal with bullying among students. Does it always result in suicide? Of course not. That's not the point. The point is that this highlights that there is a problem.
Do you have any actual objections, malanthrop? Or are you determined to earn your reputation as a hack outside political discussion, too?
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There is a problem. And you illustrate where the problem lies. As you said, "in our schools, sometimes not enough is done to deal with bullying among students"
Prosecute the school. Bullies will be bullies and they are in every school. Some schools don't tolerate it. Bullying is not tolerated in my kid's school.
There's only one situation I can imagine killing myself. If I came home from work and my entire family had been slaughtered by a psycho killer, I might consider putting a bullet in my head. I guarantee the psycho killer wouldn't be charged for my death if I did it.
Bullying is horrible. There are a million kids being bullied just like her. It is a good story to highlight the impact of cruel kids. What you wont admit is it's the combination of bullying and an unstable teenager. A toxic mix. The Columbine Massacre also highlighted the influence of violent video games. Nintendo wasn't charged with murder for training the unstable kid via a first person shooter.
No one should be charged with a crime for someone else's action. She chose to kill herself. The bullies deserved expulsion before it came to that.
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The bullying she received is not uncommon. It is unfortunate and needs to be addressed. 99% of the kids in her situation don't kill themselves. When mean Facebook statements lead to rampant suicide, I might agree with you. Sticks and stones may break my bones....
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"rampant" is the key word. I talk trash against Obama on my Facebook account. I wish he would kill himself. I believe our nation would be better off if he fed himself a bullet.
Of course, Obama doesn't care what my opinion of him is, but if he killed himself on account of what Malanthrop thinks, would the secret service come knocking on my door?
Bullying is horrible. Once we set a precedent that inciting an action is a crime, free speech will be criminalized.
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quote:Bullying is horrible. Once we set a precedent that inciting an action is a crime, free speech will be criminalized.
Well that's overly dramatic. But for once I'm going to agree with you, malanthrop. The precedent that we set for prosecuting all bullying would be an uncontrollable one. The kids were awful, but what's the objective list of what they did? They insulted her, ostracized her, and mocked her. One of them slept with her-- that's statutory rape, which he was charged with. But we can't set the precedent of prosecuting people for insulting, ostracizing, and mocking others. And we shouldn't. I can see how that could threaten free speech.
Once again, I stand by the idea that the other kids bear some moral responsibility for her death. But moral responsibility is not the same as legal responsibility, and it shouldn't be in this case.
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mal, I agree that it MIGHT have been a combination of the two. But without the bullying, which you agree was out of bound and should have been stopped way before this, she probably would have been fine. Like most kids, including your own so far, have been.
Schools have to worry about a lot of things, including the rights of kids accused of bullying. It's a catch-22.
The kids involved deserve criminal charges if warranted and supported by the evidence. The school didn't bully her, the other kids did. And they damn well knew it was wrong.
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The kids harassed her. The most they can be charged for is harassment.
The school failed to do it's duty to protect the students. Some cities fail to protect their citizens. Dozens of families have levied suit against sanctuary cities for releasing illegal immigrants who later killed their relatives. The suits are always dismissed. When government institutions fail to do their duty, it's someone else's fault.
Even disruptive and abusive students have a right to an education. Where I come from we had an "Alternative School" for them. My kid's school is a charter school. There's a loophole to get rid of the bad apples.
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Not true. They could be charged with assault for threating her, as an adult can be. If they touched her it could be battery.
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I'm sure the kids who insulted her, ostracized her, and mocked her will live with her death for the rest of their lives. It will haunt them for the rest of their lives. They won't do it again. In fact, one of them might become a potent spokesman against bullying.
Their guilt will be a lifelong burden.
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: Once we set a precedent that inciting an action is a crime, free speech will be criminalized.
I thought it already was? Anybody else remember anything about speach that isn't Constitutionally protected when it leads to harm? I have a vague memory of how far that goes being something of a pendulum that depended on which Supreme Court was hearing the cases.
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: I'm sure the kids who insulted her, ostracized her, and mocked her will live with her death for the rest of their lives. It will haunt them for the rest of their lives. They won't do it again. In fact, one of them might become a potent spokesman against bullying.
Their guilt will be a lifelong burden.
Maybe. Or maybe not. I used to think if kids knew they had made me cry they would feel guilty.
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Actually, AvidReader, I remember a case where a white supremicist had given a speech that was determined to be inciteful (although he never actually called for violence if I remember right) and some of the people in the audience beat an Ethiopian man to death. The leader was taken to civil court and I believe he was sued for several million dollars.
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: I'm sure the kids who insulted her, ostracized her, and mocked her will live with her death for the rest of their lives. It will haunt them for the rest of their lives. They won't do it again. In fact, one of them might become a potent spokesman against bullying.
Their guilt will be a lifelong burden.
Maybe. Or maybe not. I used to think if kids knew they had made me cry they would feel guilty.
Certain kids would, I'm certain others would not.
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quote:Originally posted by sinflower: Once again, I stand by the idea that the other kids bear some moral responsibility for her death. But moral responsibility is not the same as legal responsibility, and it shouldn't be in this case.
I'm with you on this. They do bear moral responsibility, though legally they do not.
The girl made the decision to kill herself, not the other children. The girl must have felt as though there was no hope, and this is the reason she did it.
This makes me wonder what her family life was like. Was her family poor? Was she abused at home? Was she ignored? A home should be a safe haven, somewhere where you can lay your worries and fears to rest. I'm curious to know what her life was like at home and if this played into her decision at all.
Oh and Mal....The games the two kids at Columbine played were made by ID Games. Doom and Doom 2. Nintendo didn't have anything to do with it. There was a lawsuit against ID Games after the tragedy but I believe it was thrown out.
edit: Changed the smiley face because it seemed really morbid and disrespectful.
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quote:Originally posted by sinflower: Once again, I stand by the idea that the other kids bear some moral responsibility for her death. But moral responsibility is not the same as legal responsibility, and it shouldn't be in this case.
I'm with you on this. They do bear moral responsibility, though legally they do not.
Let's pretend for a moment that she didn't kill themselves and these people were adults.
Is it legal to threaten people? No, it's called assault.
Is it legal to inflict physical pain or injury or even to touch another person against their wishes? No, it's called battery.
There are varying legal degrees of assault and battery, depending upon the state, and I won't pretend to understand all the legalize, but I know that you are not LEGALLY allowed to do those things. It's not just a moral thing.
Harassment is also against the law, depending upon the state and the circumstances.
I do not believe they bear any legal responsibility for the girl's DEATH...in that, they only have moral responsibility, but their actions do come with real, legal consequences.
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posted
Geraine: As many have noted already, including myself, she could have had a perfectly good home life, or at least one within an acceptable range, and still been unsafe there.
My parents were always there for me, even when I was being bullied, they asked the school to watch for my particular tormentor, but teachers can't watch one child all the time. He wasn't physically attacking me outside of the bounds of the law. Me and my friends played a game during recess called Butts Up. We played with some house rules, when you were pegged everybody who was not out got to take a shot at you. My bully started making sure that people threw the ball more often so that it would bounce towards me, knowing I could either chicken out and just let it pass, or try to get the ball every time. Obviously it meant I ended up running for the wall more than others.
We also played a game with Hacky Sacks where the sack is hit three times and grabbed mid air, whoever comes up with the sack then throws it at any of the other players as they scurry away. It was not hard for him to convince all the players to just throw it at me every single time.
I could have stopped playing, but these boys were my friends, we'd spent the night at each others houses, we played roller hockey, video games, Magic: The Gathering, Air Soft guns, we pushed each other to do complex roller blading tricks, we were in the school's media program together. I thought if I just toughed it out, things could go back to the way they used to be. But no, it just kept getting worse, this bully was simply better at manipulating people than I was. In Hockey games I got checked even when I didn't have the ball. I never got invited to their houses or parties anymore, I got worried what a bunch of boys who now hated me would do with air soft guns so I stopped going, they shamelessly posted a denigrating message about me over one of the pieces I had shot for the school news program, everybody in my school saw it. They convinced the teacher in charge of the program that the whole thing was my idea and that they had tried to talk me out of it but I just didn't belong in the program, so the teacher dismissed me. When he told me I couldn't continue in the program I was so shocked and desperate not to lose my composure and burst into tears that I couldn't speak, even in my own defense.
During a Mandarin class trip to Beijing, every single one of my former friends and my tormentor were in my group. At school I had at least some classes away from them, in Beijing, they were there constantly. They didn't miss a second during the trip without humiliating me. One of them waited until I fell asleep and let the rest of them in my room so that they could put toothpaste in my hair, I didn't wake up while they did it. When I tried to just avoid them and stick with the teacher, so that I could at least just talk to somebody who would be nice to me, they punished me for sucking up. One teacher finally noticed what was going on and told my bully to knock it off, he insisted that we were good friends, and that he was just teasing me, I was so beaten from months of abuse I was willing to say that he was my friend because I naively thought it would get me on his good side.
For my birthday that year I wanted so desperately to have my friends back, I invited some of them to my party, I even made custom invitations for them. We had a semi decent time, they only made fun of me enough for me to remember who I was now to them, even that to me was something.
The end of the year came, and coincidentally all my former friends just moved, none of them even told me. It was just me and this bully all over again, he moved on to roll with a bunch of lowlifes with ties to gangs, and he didn't feel the need to find out if I had made any new friends. It took 4 years of high school, before I think I could say I was over it.
I think back on the whole experience and am reminded that my own father was bullied mercilessly for years, maybe it's genetic. Maybe it's the fact that if you are bullied that first time and do not do what is necessary to stop it then and there, it's too late. That first time for me was going to school with my hair gelled back. My mom thought it was the cutest thing ever, it was different from everybody else. My bully latched onto that, pointed out I looked stupid, and I just didn't know how to respond. I tried ignoring him, I tried sarcasm, I tried everything I could think of. I didn't have the benefits of some book that tells you what to do when a bully just won't leave you alone and starts to systematically alienate you from all your friends.
I'm not even sure why I wrote all that, I've never gone into such detail about my bullying experiences, maybe I needed to as some sort of catharsis. Maybe this girl's experience was completely different. My bullies were my former friends as lead by one boy who didn't show up until 8th grade. They were all rich, privileged, and educated, just like me. They were for the most part White Americans, just like me.
If my son were to begin to experience the things I experienced I honestly am not sure what I would tell him to do different. I learned to survive and put myself back together when it was over slowly. Nobody can take me back in time and say, "See here is where it started, you shouldn't have done this, you should have done this." Maybe if I had pulled an Ender and beaten the tapioca out of that kid the first time it happened, but that just was not in my nature, I didn't hurt people, I certainly didn't belittle them or seek to make them feel like crap. I couldn't understand why some people do. Whatever I did wrong, it stunted my growth socially in a very significant way.
I can still recall giving an oral presentation in 7th grade, I had the entire room on the edge of their seats, and I got an A from a teacher who was very reserved about giving them as she said she felt it indicated that one could do no better. I remember giving another oral presentation in 10th grade, about a year and half after the bullying had stopped, and I had developed a speech impediment or something. I was terrified, I stuttered on my words, I couldn't remember a single thing about Harriet Tubman and I had known a ton about her since I was about 10 years old. Everyone in the class laughed at me, fortunately my teachers managed to get them to stop, and I managed to finish. Afterward I realized just how much I still needed to heal.
I'm fine now, I made new friends throughout high school, I served as a missionary for two years, I went to college, got married, I have plenty of self-confidence. But I also know that in 8th grade, every day was terrible. It was the only time in my life I was unhappy getting ready every morning. It was like knowing you were going to some special school where you get to learn fantastic new things, but at the same time be treated like a walking talking joke all day.
I wish I could go over this post and check for grammar, but I need to go, I've spent alot of time trying to revisit these demons, I just need to step away from them for now.
edit: As if this wasn't long enough.
quote:I do not believe they bear any legal responsibility for the girl's DEATH...in that, they only have moral responsibility, but their actions do come with real, legal consequences.
This is how I feel as well.
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posted
People keep making the distinction between legal and moral responsibility. But isn't the purpose of a legal system to be a system with which moral responsibility can be upheld? What makes the two different?
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There was a lawsuit against ID Games after the tragedy but I believe it was thrown out.
