quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: I'm sorry Samp, but if you don't burn easy, you do not have the fairest of the Faire princessey-white complexion.
It takes me about 45-50 minutes in the sun to burn exposed skin. The typical expected burn time for my skin tone is something like 15 minutes. 9 out of 10 dermatologists agree i do not make sense. Past usage of skin treatments and tetracycline may be at issue!
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Geraine: If there is a legal blockade and it is violated then Israel has a right to take action. Other boats were peaceful and had no issues. One boat started attacking Israeli authorities, so they defended themselves.
As Martin Lawrence would say, "What the problem is?"
The key word in this is "if". The legality of the blockade is (at a minimum) heavily disputed. The impact of the blockade on the economy and living conditions in Gaza has been disastrous.
What the Israelis seem to be missing is that the objective of this aid flotilla was not solely, or even principally, to get aid to the Palestinians living in the Gaza. It was to draw attention to the blockade, its questionable standing and the impact its having on Palestinians.
By allowing the situation to escalate to violence and killing, the Israelis made this a major international news story and a thus a massive success for people whose goal was to draw attention to the blockade. Because the Israelis killed a bunch of activists, this is headline news and lots of people who'd never heard of the blockade and the humanitarian crisis in Gaza are now talking about it and many of them are going to side with groups like Amnesty International who believe the blockade is immoral and illegal.
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quote:Originally posted by King of Men: I've been looking through the convention of the law of the sea, and it makes no mention of blockades.
It makes no mention of them because article 24 basically says that there are no naval blockades. This also seems to be Canada's legal interpretation of the charter (as below).
What it does note are certain narrow criteria for when vessels can be boarded which is what the Times Online is referring to in the second and third points.
quote:Naval blockades, such as those during the Cuban missile crisis and the recent Persian Gulf war, are popular military tools for bringing about political compliance. Blockades are, however, prima facie breaches of the LOSC as they interfere with freedom of navigation on the HS. The law of the sea does not, however, exist in isolation from all other international law; naval blockades may be legitimized if they are supported by a United Nations Security Council resolution under Chapter VII of the Charter. The blockade of Iraq had such authority;(51) the blockade of Cuba did not.
quote:Originally posted by The Rabbit: What the Israelis seem to be missing is that the objective of this aid flotilla was not solely, or even principally, to get aid to the Palestinians living in the Gaza. It was to draw attention to the blockade, its questionable standing and the impact its having on Palestinians.
By allowing the situation to escalate to violence and killing, the Israelis made this a major international news story and a thus a massive success for people whose goal was to draw attention to the blockade. Because the Israelis killed a bunch of activists, this is headline news and lots of people who'd never heard of the blockade and the humanitarian crisis in Gaza are now talking about it and many of them are going to side with groups like Amnesty International who believe the blockade is immoral and illegal.
In case people missed this.
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quote:An argument I think we will all start seeing soon is that cement is a war supply, since it can be used to construct improved fighting positions like bunkers. Expect to see that talking point bandied about in the coming days.
Today, 1:12 PM:
quote:What is it doing allowing its nationals to smuggle cement that could build bunkers?
posted
Yeah, he mentions bunkers three times, makes no mention of anything else that would disqualify the cargo as humanitarian aid, and then rails about whether Iran has nuclear material. What does any of this have to do with Gaza?
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posted
They could have passed it through Ashdod as they were asked to. They were trying to break the blockade. Guess what? The blockade remains unbroken.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: ... They were trying to break the blockade.
Well:
quote:The Israeli Foreign Ministry had harsh words for the organizers of the flotilla. “These people are not supporting the Palestinians and they are not even supporting humanitarian causes,” said Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor. “They are engaged in only one thing, and that is to create provocations and to collaborate with Hamas propaganda.”
Success on both counts really. I don't think the people on the boats really thought they would be able to sneak past the Israeli navy, especially with journalists aboard. The much more realistic point was, well, bait. As in the title of the thread.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: They could have passed it through Ashdod as they were asked to. They were trying to break the blockade. Guess what? The blockade remains unbroken.
You don't see how the tactical "victory" was irrelevant? This is really not something you have figured out?
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: They could have passed it through Ashdod as they were asked to. They were trying to break the blockade. Guess what? The blockade remains unbroken.
quote:I think one of the ways that Israel shoots itself in the foot constantly is that they approach situations with a "tactical advantage above all else" attitude.
posted
Nice that you're so concerned about Israel "shooting itself in the foot". I don't think you care the least bit about that, though. I think it's just a clever way for you to criticize Israel when the evidence is clearly against you.
"I can't demonstrate that Israel did something wrong, so I'll call them idiots for not doing things the way I would."
posted
A tactical victory? Perhaps in the short term. If they had not gone there with the express purpose of CAUSING the issue I would have more sympathy for them.
On the radio last night a CBS reporter said that some of the the "activists" had firearms on board, and it wasn't until one was discharged that Israel took steps to protect themselves.
This did not help the activists cause. If they want to deliver aid to Gaza things just got a whole lot tougher on them. Now that they have attacked Israeli troops Israel is likely to come down harder on them now in the long term, not back off.
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posted
What was the source for the CBS news report?
Right now the story being told by the activists that have returned to Europe is dramatically different from the story being told by Israeli officials. Until a neutral party investigates the event, I'm not prone to believe the stories coming from either side.
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quote:JERUSALEM – Israel and Egypt signaled a temporary easing of the Gaza Strip blockade Tuesday following harsh international condemnation of the deadly Israeli raid on an aid flotilla en route to the sealed-off Palestinian territory.
posted
Now that the border between Gaza and Egypt is open, the IDF should go in and march every single last one of them across that border into Sinai, and seal it back up again. And the entire Katif Strip should be settled. Not just the part that was destroyed by Ariel Sharon.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Nice that you're so concerned about Israel "shooting itself in the foot". I don't think you care the least bit about that, though. I think it's just a clever way for you to criticize Israel when the evidence is clearly against you.
What does this even mean? It doesn't make sense even as a supposition of my motive. What evidence is against me? All you've contributed to the discussion is
1. handwaving and 'who cares,' 'big deal' 2. you wish they had just sunk the ships 3. a redstate link giving the 'legal' argument that it was legal to board the flotilla, which was easily shot down because it didn't even cite relevant law, or anything that was international maritime law at all 4. claims that avoiding the security hit is better because <here's two links about some other unrelated security issues> abstrusely used to try to make the case that this was more preferable 5. Some side talk about how 'the only thing wrong' with this operation was that the soldiers didn't get to be violent enough, essentially (this was funny)
THEN
6. Moving straight to concluding that I just like to criticize israel in clever ways when the evidence "is not on my side" 7. more handwaving ("boring, boooring, don't care, big deal, boring, i'm so bored over here, YAWN") 8. ??? 9. Profit?
Remember, kids: the best way to destroy one's image of being able or willing to present a good faith argument is to pull this kind of crap. Lisa, do better, or don't try at all. Actually demonstrate the evidence is clearly against me before you try to front that kind of statement, or you're subject trolling with preconclusive arrogance.
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Now that the border between Gaza and Egypt is open, the IDF should go in and march every single last one of them across that border into Sinai, and seal it back up again. And the entire Katif Strip should be settled. Not just the part that was destroyed by Ariel Sharon.
I think I get it now. I think you're a sleeper agent who craves israel's failure.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Nice that you're so concerned about Israel "shooting itself in the foot". I don't think you care the least bit about that, though. I think it's just a clever way for you to criticize Israel when the evidence is clearly against you.
"I can't demonstrate that Israel did something wrong, so I'll call them idiots for not doing things the way I would."
Boring.
This is an ad hominem.
Posts: 4600 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Nice that you're so concerned about Israel "shooting itself in the foot". I don't think you care the least bit about that, though. I think it's just a clever way for you to criticize Israel when the evidence is clearly against you.
"I can't demonstrate that Israel did something wrong, so I'll call them idiots for not doing things the way I would."
Boring.
This is an ad hominem.
Clearly you don't understand what the ad hominem fallacy is. Pointing out that Sam is a jerk is not an ad hominem. Saying, "Sam is a jerk, and Sam is bitching about Israel. So bitching about Israel is clearly a jerk thing to do" is an ad hominem.
I didn't say that. Sam has failed to show that Israel did anything either morally or legally wrong. Rather than back down, he switched lanes, so to speak, and started attacking Israel for not doing a good job at public relations.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Nice that you're so concerned about Israel "shooting itself in the foot". I don't think you care the least bit about that, though. I think it's just a clever way for you to criticize Israel when the evidence is clearly against you.
"I can't demonstrate that Israel did something wrong, so I'll call them idiots for not doing things the way I would."
Boring.
This is an ad hominem.
Clearly you don't understand what the ad hominem fallacy is. Pointing out that Sam is a jerk is not an ad hominem. Saying, "Sam is a jerk, and Sam is bitching about Israel. So bitching about Israel is clearly a jerk thing to do" is an ad hominem.
I didn't say that. Sam has failed to show that Israel did anything either morally or legally wrong. Rather than back down, he switched lanes, so to speak, and started attacking Israel for not doing a good job at public relations.
Sorry, I was assuming what you said was supposed to somehow bear on the topic under discussion.
Posts: 4600 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Also, even if you don't get that Samp's first post was supposed to be about how Israel is harming its own self interest, his second post is obviously concerned with just the point you accuse him of "switching lanes" to.
Posts: 4600 | Registered: Mar 2000
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I 'switched lanes' even though the whole idea that Israel goofed up is the major underpinning of my original post, second post in thread and response to you, consistent through the entire thread, etc. The whole legal issue got chimed in on later.
Man, you could be further off the mark, but not by much. I almost wonder if there is some alternate thread that you are inhibiting, somewhere, and conflating it with this one when you bust in and start making dismissals like how the evidence is clearly against me.
Interesting.
I wonder how often you make the spurious jump to concluding people's motives based on the "evidence being clearly against" them, without bothering to go to that silly little step of actually clearly demonstrating any such thing. Perhaps the evidence is clearly against me in your mind. I don't doubt it! In terms of actually presenting it, however, you've fallen rather depressingly short.
Perhaps you're still stuck on the whole part where the Redstate link offered no valid justification for Israel's actions, yet you presented it so conclusively as though it so clearly, verifiably, unassailably did. That would certainly be interesting, especially considering that the author of the bit themselves even offered the caveat that what we were looking at was inconveniently not even legally relevant.
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Now that the border between Gaza and Egypt is open, the IDF should go in and march every single last one of them across that border into Sinai, and seal it back up again. And the entire Katif Strip should be settled. Not just the part that was destroyed by Ariel Sharon.
I think I get it now. I think you're a sleeper agent who craves israel's failure.
On the subject of ad homs, gentlemen, this is how it's done: To accuse the opponent of being a traitor who advocates a course of action only because she favours the destruction of her nation, now, that's ad hom!
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Now that the border between Gaza and Egypt is open, the IDF should go in and march every single last one of them across that border into Sinai, and seal it back up again. And the entire Katif Strip should be settled. Not just the part that was destroyed by Ariel Sharon.
I think I get it now. I think you're a sleeper agent who craves israel's failure.
On the subject of ad homs, gentlemen, this is how it's done: To accuse the opponent of being a traitor who advocates a course of action only because she favours the destruction of her nation, now, that's ad hom!
posted
This is a thing of beauty. I think this may be the first time I've ever seen or heard anything with Glenn Beck in it. But he explains the situation in clear and simple terms so that even a leftist can understand.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by The White Whale: He still (as always) comes across as condescending, arrogant, and a spin-meister.
beck, Misinformer of the Year 2009, is really really really good at spin and whitewash in that sort of way that certain demographics totally eat up. That one right there looks like it was scientifically designed to hypnotize likudniks.
It's admirable, in a way. It's a way to compress all the crazy into a half hour. It's too bad people figured out he's kinda unforgivably nuts and his viewership is dropping.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
I think his (Beck) TV show is much better than his radio program.
I don't like most of his ideas, but he certainly does alot of work to run a radio and TV show on a daily basis.
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posted
It is kind of appropriate that the person who takes the position that they should have just sunk all the "terrorist ships" and should respond to the Egypt border opening with a brute mass removal and Jewish conquest of the region has discovered Glenn Beck in the process of finding people who agree with her.
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I mean, honestly. You called me on an ad hominem that wasn't even an ad hominem, but you seem to think it's just fine when you engage in them.
Forget that it's Glenn Beck who said that. Pretend it was Janeane Garafalo, or some other darling of the left. It's what a person says that matters; not who says it. That's why the ad hominem argument is a fallacy.
posted
I did say that his claims are beside the point, for purposes of this discussion, since no one here is trying to defend the good character of the activists on the flotilla.
They'd still be beside the point even if spoken by the goddess Garofalo.
quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Forget that it's Glenn Beck who said that. Pretend it was Janeane Garafalo, or some other darling of the left. It's what a person says that matters; not who says it. That's why the ad hominem argument is a fallacy.
Okay.
"Gosh, Lisa, since when did Janeane Garafalo turn into such a smug idiot? And are you under the impression that what she just said in your link relates to OUR argument? Just wondering".
posted
Okay. So you all deny that you're trying to justify the flotilla. And you deny that you're trying to bash Israel for not acting in a way you think would give them better PR (as though anything in the world would do that).
Sounds like you're pretty much talking about nothing.
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posted
Meanwhile, countries like Turkey are finding out that Israel isn't the only country that can shoot itself in the foot. LinkyPosts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Um, yeah. The issue is that no matter who glenn beck is, what he's saying is irrelevant to any case we've made here. I'm sorry, maybe because he's counteracting a claim that 'even we lefties' are supposed to be able to understand, it's supposed to be our claim. idk.
I admit it's completely unsurprising that you found your way to actually honestly quoting Glenn Beck, seeing as how Free Republic and Redstate have already been cited by you.
I'll keep my eye open for Newsmax or Michelle Malkin. :/
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:And you deny that you're trying to bash Israel for not acting in a way you think would give them better PR
I thought this was exactly what we were doing, minus some of the connotations of the word "bashing."
At least, the point I've been trying to argue for is that Israel has undermined its own best interests by generating such awful PR for itself.
I've also been trying to argue that, while the flotilla's crew may have been a bunch of awful terrorist-supporting people doing the wrong thing by running the blockade, the Israelis were also wrong to board the ship and to kill those nine people.
quote:Meanwhile, countries like Turkey are finding out that Israel isn't the only country that can shoot itself in the foot.
It certainly isn't the only one.
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Okay, while he did describe things fairly well, this clip shows that he's a bit delusional when it comes to the non-FOX media.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Meanwhile, countries like Turkey are finding out that Israel isn't the only country that can shoot itself in the foot. Linky
It's too bad that won't work on the other Muslim countries.
Wait, it would...but we'd actually have to start investing in alternative energy, to really hit them in the pocketbook. Heavens to Betsy! What a terrible idea!
I figured out that getting off oil was the REAL solution to all this stuff back in November 2001.
I'm counting the years until everybody else catches up with that.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
I just read Debbie Schlussel's articles on this event.
She's a complete and utter child. Like, a total stewpot of ridiculous islamophobia and misinformation.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
lol, israel just killed the quadro Scuba Squad of Awesome. looks like gaza's getting attacks on the sea there now.
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