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RA: I appreciate the advice and the kindness and benefit of doubt. I will try and work on that...although I'm not presenting these things as a new concept under the assumption that people don't know...just that they are my beliefs and that they make logical sense. I mean, it's a point in contention, so I was trying to explain it is all.
Boots: I see what you mean...and I'm definitely of two opinions about it. Part is that there is a problem and doing what you suggested (equally qualified candidates is a personal requirement, if "race" is used as a consideration over other candidates who are more qualified)...but I also tend to think that any consideration given to race at all is part of the problem.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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There is also the problem with just pooh-poohing it away as 'imaginary'. Sure, it's an artificial, arbitrary distinction, but...so is money in some ways. $1 is worth what $1 will buy because we say it is, not because a bunch of metal or ink, cloth, and paper is worth in and of itself.
Likewise brushing it aside as imaginary blinds you to when it's actually happening, because it's already trivial in your mind. We see evidence of this in your approach to discussing the matter. Lots of talks of echoes, and of racism being a thing of the past, well the *worst* racism, anyway, there's still problems but they're 'rresidual'. I'm not sure what that means, but it's language that trivializes.
As for what I meant by a contradiction, you claim that the world would be a better place if everyone abandoned distinctions of race-meaning that we haven't yet. But you *also* imply, repeatedly, that racism just isn't a serious problem anymore.
On another note, I'm quickly skeptical when white people in this country, just laypeople without professional experience or education in such matters, suggest that racism is something that's not that bad anymore. Stone_Wolf, I'll ask you straight up: how would you know? Do you have a large number of minority friends with whom you regularly check how their job applications went, how they dealt with police, how their children's experiences in school went?
Or is your opinion perhaps formed more on your self-acknowledged almost unanimously homogenous racial upbringing, and the fact that we don't see white people turning fire hoses on black people on the news now?
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Stone_Wolf, I understand where you are coming from. I grew up in a mostly white suburb and believed much as you do until I actually worked in more diverse communities. I get that "recognizing" race seems like part of the problem and I was shocked when I discovered my own completely subconscious prejudices.
Racism is like an infection and we have to treat it - often in ways that seem counter-intuitive.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Rakeesh: I understand what you mean about the comparison with money, but that is part of my point. We make the concept of race true with our beliefs (aware of them or not) in it and how it affects our actions. What I'm suggesting is that we can make that work for us by starting the process of abandoning the belief. I do acknowledge what you are saying about just because it is not factually based, as a concept it becomes real by our belief in it.
I hear you that my language choice shows I don't feel it is a life or death problem, and I don't. I think AIDS, starvation, cancer, lack of basic education or medical facilities in third world countries ARE a huge problem. That doesn't mean I don't think racism is not a problem at all. Also saying that it was a huge problem and is now a shadow of that huge problem doesn't mean it isn't still around and need to be dealt with. Do you agree that racism in this country was an order of magnitude worse 50 years ago then now?
As to your question of how I formed the opinion that racism is not as bad anymore, having lived the vast majority of my life (26/31 years) in a very racially diverse SoCal, it's from first hand knowledge, talking to people, etc. I fully admit that my first hand knowledge is not as extensive as some other people's, but it's not nonexistent either. I used to work security in an ER, and we had all kinds of gang violence, drug users, etc. Anytime a police officer had a suspect in custody that needed medical attention, I was there, witnessing the interactions.
Boots: Hmmm...out of curiosity can you think of any other examples of how acknowledging "race" is a prerequisite to fighting racism?
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The example I gave about hiring professors was one example. It is important not only for the diversity that the professor brings but also so that minority students can imagine themselves succeeding in academia.
In a larger sense, without being intentional about racial equality it becomes far too for the majority culture to completely eclipse minority culture. We (consciously or not) judge people by how well they fit into the dominant culture rather than appreciating the gifts of their culture. We see them as failed versions of us rather than great versions of themselves. We assume that white Protestant values (for example) are the only valid values and try to make the pegs fit the holes rather than the holes fit the pegs.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Just had a huge post eaten by the forum, so here goes again.
Stone_Wolf: I think what many would have you understand is that racism is still very much a problem today, and that while there have been gains made, that progress is not guaranteed, we could easily back track into where we were some time ago.
More importantly, while racism is not as violent today as it was in days past, there are still myriad non-violent ways racism manifests itself. Remember after the Civil War, it was about a century before segregation was finally removed as a legal institution. Today though, racism manifests itself in the form of job applications, housing applications, school applications, racial profiling, neighborhoods.
It is well documented that having a "black sounding" name means decreased chance of getting a job, getting accepted as a renter, getting into certain schools. It means being stopped more by the police and being checked at security checkpoints. It frequently means being asked where you are going, why are you in a certain place. I've relayed this story before, but I was so surprised to hear my date from Hawaii, a very vivacious, friendly, and sweet girl suddenly turn cold on the topic of the police, and speak how much she resented being stopped about 1-3 times a week in her car and being asked to provide a green card or proof of citizenship because she was brown.
For you and me it's a similar obliviousness to how women have to think. We don't have to wonder if it is safe to park in a certain location, or whether we can safely make two trips so as to bring our groceries in, or whether we should try to do it all in one trip and have our hands full.
It's not as if a person who offers us a job is ever going to say, "There was another applicant named Tyron, and you had all the same qualifications, but he sounded black so I called you back." And so in many ways we just hop along not realizing the racism that still exists around us.
I was watching the film Of Gods and Men and during the movie my grandmother said out loud regarding the gang of Muslim militants roaming the countryside, "We should kill them all". When we pointed out that many attrocities have been committed by Christians, and that not all Muslims are evil, blah blah blah, she at first resisted, then conceded because she had no argument, but the sad thing is I don't think we changed her mind.
edit: One of the most commonly discussed topics in my college political science courses was the resentment my classmates felt that minorities qualified for grants, schools, etc "purely because they are in a minority" and that they were being muscled out for those slots. The anger was inescapably apparent, I can't imagine those feelings of frustration are not a part of their interactions with those same minority groups. That does not mean they mistreat them, but it could easily mean they feel those negative feelings to a degree when they interact with a member of a minority.
That's one of the worst things about racism, you can call somebody out on it, and as soon as they stop hearing why their beliefs are wrong, they promptly return to them, like a dog to its vomit as it were.
It is only through long suffering, love, persuasion, and allowing racist elements to become marginalized, and die naturally, is progress continually made, but again that progress isn't permanent by a long shot.
Much of the resentment against illegal immigration translates into hatred for Latinos. Smae thing for Islam its association with terrorism. Much of Europe is seething with resentment for their Muslim immigrant population. In Norway a racist just killed 60 people, his own people, because he said his country was becoming too pluralistic, and that only by engendering feelings of anger could he get his country to start hating all of those Muslims.
None of this even begins to approach the problem of racism in the other direction. The resentment and frustration the oppressed feel for those who share a race with their oppressors. This is the other side of the problem, and it is no less important those who feel the effects of racism, feel able to let go and unball their fists.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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BB, having lived in china, would you care to relate your experiences of being a minority in a large country?
I've shared my experiences, but they are not fraught with much racial tensions per se- as I've shared before, I'm typically regarded as "one of the good foreigners." what are your recollections about being white in China?
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Orincoro: It actually sounds quite similar to you. It should be remembered I lived in Hong Kong, which is not like many other parts of China, for one thing it had a fairly benevolent minority controlling it for a very long time. Attorneys and judges in Hong Kong still wear powedered wigs like they do in Britain.
I will say though that white Europeans and especially Americans enjoy a fairly exalted status in the Mainland and even in Hong Kong. In China, while this less the case today, it is still quite common to be peppered with questions by curious strangers if you are white. Where are you from, what's it like there, do you like China, wow your Chinese is excellent, etc.
While in Beijing last summer there were several times me and a half Chinese friend walked up to a group of youths and asked if we could play basketball, almost without exception the Chinese folks were flattered to have been asked.
In Hong Kong where people are less enamored with being around foreigners, you are usually treated with traditional Chinese politeness, i.e you are left alone, conversation is kept strictly professional. Ocassionally you will be treated rudely and you can usually tell because suddenly they start speaking to each other in Cantonese. In short I didn't feel like I was treated much differently than how they might treat another Chinese person.
What has surprised me is just how differently dark skinned people are treated. One problem is that the Chinese like most Asians consider dark skin to be ugly. Further, Chinese films that feature Asian stars such as Bruce Lee often display black men as being pimps, gangsters, and criminals. For some reason black people are still largely seen in this light by the Chinese. A big part of it *might* be that there isn't a country where blacks are the predominant population that has reached any sort of power notoriety, and so the Chinese conclude that blacks are an inferior race.
But if you take the Chinese who are into sports, especially basketball, they adore all the same athletes we celebrate here. Kobe Bryant, Lebron James, Michael Jordan, etc. Because black athletes dominate the league, it *feels* like to the Chinese mind that means they deserve be liked.
If Kobe Bryant walked down the street in Beijing, he'd have tons of admirers fawning over him. If Kobe Bryant had a brother and that brother tried to date a Chinese woman, I'd expect he'd experience serious setbacks all because he is black.
Malaysia was an entirely different experience. Again they used to be an English colony, but they were readily given their independence when they wanted it. There I felt like the people were just generaly courteous to all races. I might have been too young really get it though, I left when I was 12 years old.
I do know that US policy towards Muslim nations has engendered a good deal of resentment to many of the people there, but I'm not sure if one can call that racism.
So to sum up, like you, if you are white in Asia, you won't experience much racism, in fact you are more likely to experience the opposite of racism where you are assumed to be very bright and worth knowing just because you are from America/Europe, etc. If you are another race though, that does not hold true.
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That fits my experiences with Asians in Europe as well, actually. I have *never* been fawned over with such embarrassing sincerity as I have by the parents of my korean and Vietnamese students in Czech republic. These people are nicer and more complimentary to me than my grandparents. It's often entirely too much to handle.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:So to sum up, like you, if you are white in Asia, you won't experience much racism, in fact you are more likely to experience the opposite of racism where you are assumed to be very bright and worth knowing just because you are from America/Europe, etc. If you are another race though, that does not hold true.
This is true for the most part in my experience as well, but there is something a little different that I'm trying to figure out how to articulate.
It's not racism in terms of violence or rudeness or feelings of superiority, but there is still a very large concept of separatism (and I don't think a lot of expats who live in wealthy neighborhoods and refuse to learn the language are doing much to help.)
I experienced it a little bit in Taiwan - the weirdest feeling in the world was when I went swimming with a friend and every. single. person. in the building stared at my white, white legs the entire time. I even had a little boy come up and ask me why I was so white. "I'm a white person," I explained. (It doesn't sound snotty or condescending in Chinese, I promise. Just descriptive.) He then asked "When you were born, was your mom surprised you were so white?"
I think that illustrated to me the main characteristic of East Asian racism - most people simply have so little experience with foreigners that they don't know how to think or act, and it's natural to have a very "we're this way, and they're that way" mentality.
This is even more pronounced in Japan, which has perhaps the world's shortest history of multiculturalism. It is such a predominantly homogeneous culture that there are still a lot of problems caused by sheer inexperience. And so they treat foreigners with a lot of extra care but also a lot of trepidation.
My personal experience was always mild. People, especially young people - often talked to each other about me right in front of my face, (assuming that I didn't understand what they were saying). On one occasion, I turned in a cell phone I'd found to a police station and told the officer that I wanted to waive my legal right to keep it if it wasn't claimed and he was totally flummoxed about what to do. He then spent the next 10 minutes on the phone with his supervisor trying to figure out if it was OK not to follow policy in this case because I was a foreigner who conceivably didn't understand what was going on. I understood perfectly well, but simply had no use for a cell phone. I had to sit and wait as he diagnosed my language ability to his supervisor and then asked me a few more test questions before letting me go. When the Japanese are faced with a foreigner they are typically very polite but kind of freak out at any attempt to overlap the two worlds. (I had one old lady who would ring her hands and apologize when I came over for dinner because she knew foreigners didn't eat rice but she just didn't have any bread in the house.)
There was a more sinister side to it, though, and I saw most of that in the Nagoya region where there's a sizeable minority population of Brazilians and Peruvians. One Brazilian friend whose husband worked at a factory had some chilling stories about how he was treated there. I also heard Japanese people in Shizuoka Prefecture express outright fear when a Peruvian family moved into their neighborhood. "It's just scary," the woman explained, "because, you know, they steal cars and things."
So I think my own personal experience has taught me that "racism" in the terms we're used to thinking in, and the concept of race in general, are uniquely American phenomena that are changing rapidly as the numbers of multiethnic people increases. But I think the underlying concept of "us vs. other" is universal and is most dangerous when groups are separated by long-standing differences in economic status, religion, etc. In Northern Ireland, after all, we see the same problems erupt between "racially" identical people. It's worse when understanding is lowest, and tapers off as understanding increases.
So the whole discussion of "what is white" is necessarily couched in American standards and culture. (And most of those shaped by demographics of our large, influential cities that tend to have upper-class white populations and lower-class black populations.)If you go to Latin America you'll get an entirely different answer (and, ironically, this comes from a group of people that most Americans would identify as a "race.") Heck, I even had my concept of "white" totally upended when I moved to Utah. I had grown up as a white person as far as I knew, and now I'm living among a group of predominantly English and Danish people who seem to be overwhelmingly blond and free of body hair. For the first time in my life I feel hairy and dark and it's really been an odd thing to get used to.
So all that babbling and it all boils down to: it all changes every time you leave the city limits. But underneath it all it's still "us vs. them."
Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
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Funny, I had a friend in Barcelona when I lived there who was ethnic Japanese, but whose parents immigrated from Peru, where they had been raised as Peruvian. She was studying spanish with me to be able to speak her parents language, even though they all lived in Japan, in Nagoya in fact, and were all Japanese. I always loved the strangeness of that scenario.
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There are actually pretty sizeable populations of South Americans in Japan and vice versa. It's because there's a secret warp tunnel between Mt. Fuji and the Amazon.
No, actually, it's because a lot of Japanese emigrated to South America to escape the poverty and starvation right after the war. Then, when Japan's industrial economy started booming in the 60s and 70s they needed a lot more manual laborers, especially to build cars, so the government offered Japanese citizenship to anyone of pure or mixed Japanese ancestry, and a lot of the emigrants and their children and grandchildren have moved back to Japan. Of course, now most of them are native Spanish and Portuguese speakers. Toyota City near Nagoya is basically a little Brazil.
That was, until the 2008 downturn. When I was back in Japan last summer Shizuoka Prefecture was turning into a ghost town and all the Brazilian groceries I used to love to go to were shut down. Very sad.
Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
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quote:No, actually, it's because a lot of Japanese emigrated to South America to escape the poverty and starvation right after the war.
Actually, there was considerable emigration from Japan to Brazil in the 1920s and 1930s. When the flood of Japanese came over after WWII, there were already many Japanese communities there.
quote:the government offered Japanese citizenship to anyone of pure or mixed Japanese ancestry, and a lot of the emigrants and their children and grandchildren have moved back to Japan.
A lot of them only move to Japan for a few years. They can go to Japan for five years, work their butts off, get treated like dirt, and come back with enough money saved to be able to buy a car, start a business, or similar. This can have a major and permanent effect on their economic security.
At least, that's how it was in the mid-90s when I was in Brazil.
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