posted
No, it's still selfish not to even try when there is a chance, and especially so to decide beforehand you aren't going to try.
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If you think those were absolute statements, then you don't understand the difference between a declarative and an absolute statement.
Posts: 232 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
KirKis, I, too, am sorry you went through all that. Honestly (and I mean this gently) you can't base general rules for everyone on worst cases and it sounds like you were unlucky or unwise enough to pick a real worst case kind of woman.
I hope that your future relationship are better.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Well, we disagree that's clear. I think it would classify you as (at least) insensitive to go around and tell the victims of infidelity that they are selfish for not giving their spouses another chance.
There is a difference between "decide beforehand" and "agree beforehand".
What I said was "absolute position". But I'm glad you would rather assume my ignorance then ask for clarification. Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
I didn't ask for clarification because you were clearly more interested in playing "Gotcha" than actually having a conversation. That game you'll have to play by yourself.
The key word is not "decide" or "agree". It is "beforehand."
Adultery is selfish. Breaking a family when it is possible to save it is as well. Not as selfish or evil as adultery, but still.
Posts: 232 | Registered: Jul 2002
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I'm sorry Aerin, but i'm selfish then. I can't give someone who does that another chance. I would keep thinking about it... even as you lay down next to me I just couldn't get it out of my head.. the things you did with that other guy. (sorry i'm using you as an example). It would drive me insane. I would be bitter about it. I would keep brinigng it up at random times. It would make you angry too. We would start fighting and eventually we would split.
If you have any intention of cheating. Don't get into a serious relationship. Period.
You don't get a free pass. There is no "get-out-of-jail-free" card. There is no passing go. You go directly to jail.
Posts: 91 | Registered: Jan 2011
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KirKis, the point is that these thing are true for you possibly because of what you have already gone through with your previous partner and with your parents.
They are not true for everyone. Some people are able to forgive and move on. And for some people, it isn't as big a deal.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Naw, plenty of people will still play with me. :wink:
All kidding aside, I wasn't simply trying to score points off you. You seem to think I'm trying to twist your arm into saying something you don't believe, trying to push you into an "absolute statement"...but I'm not. Your statements seem conflictory to me, and judgmental, and I was trying to see what you were really saying...and pointing out that yours is the more absolute position. *shrug*
It seems like you are not only saying that it is owed to consider at the time, but to try to reconcile...but the thing you keep bumping your nose against is this..."when it is possible to keep it together healthily and happily" what you should say is "if"...because it isn't always a real possibility. Even if someone really really tries. And sometimes this can be known. And if it is known, (I know I could never get over this and let you touch me again, or look at you and not see her/him) then trying is just going to cause more damage.
Give people a little credit for knowing their own needs and sensitivities.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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boots: I don't think KirKis is calling for everyone to have a zero tolerance policy...if you are KirKis, please correct me here.
It is the other side of this argument who is insisting that everyone must give a second chance...if the spouse is repentant and there are kids involved....or else you are selfish and hurting your children.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Aerin: I didn't ask for clarification because you were clearly more interested in playing "Gotcha" than actually having a conversation. That game you'll have to play by yourself.
The key word is not "decide" or "agree". It is "beforehand."
Adultery is selfish. Breaking a family when it is possible to save it is as well. Not as selfish or evil as adultery, but still.
Before my husband and I got married, we agreed to lots of things, many of which were in retrospect unrealistic. I don't remember if we ever explicitly discussed what we would do if one of us committed adultery. I doubt we thought we needed to. We both understood and agreed that getting married meant promising to be exclusive. So far, that's not a problem we've had to face and a don't imagine it ever will be. Still, I doubt many people marry someone they think is likely to cheat on them, we all think the odds don't apply to us.
What my husband and I did discuss and commit to was striving to work through all our problems, without exception. To me, the very idea of a "deal breaker" violates that promise.
That doesn't mean I there is no circumstance which would justify a divorce in my mind. If one partner is no longer willing to work on solving the serious problems, then divorce may be the most viable option. But as long as my husband is willing to work at it -- I have promised to do so.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
People can do what they wish. It is their life. If people want freebe then by all means give it to them. I won't think less of you. I just won't understand why.
@boots - If it isn't a big deal then you weren't really in love with the person to begin with LOL.
IMO, nobody is worth going through that kind of heartache. (unless your dating Ashley Greene...)
posted
Those are good commitments Rabbit...very similar to my own...except my wife and I specifically and explicitly discussed infidelity, and agreed that it was a deal breaker.
I'm not saying that simply saying the vows is the same as the discussion my wife and I had before we married...just for the record.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:If it isn't a big deal then you weren't really in love with the person to begin with
If you expect people to respect your own feelings on the matter and particular sensitivities you might try and be a little more understanding to other people's diverging opinions.
quote:People can do what they wish. It is their life. If people want freebe then by all means give it to them.
This is exactly the kind of remark that has led to people thinking that you, KrisKris (and to a lesser extent a few others) look down on people who take a different stance than you on issues of vows and infidelity, and that you feel there is only one reasonable way to deal with it.
Just because one doesn't immediately end the relationship if infidelity occurs, doesn't adopt a scorched earth stance towards it, doesn't mean they're giving 'freebies'. There's a whole lot of area between 'freebie' and 'up front-if it happens ever, I'm gone forever'.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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KirKis, for some people, love is not measured by jealously or possession. I could just as easily say that if you can't forgive them, you never loved them in the first place.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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@Rackees - I don't look down on anyone. You have no clue what i've been saying.
I never said my way was the only way. I never said everyone else had to do the same. I said I don't understand why they do. I've been through the pain. I know how i'd react if it happens again. I don't want to feel that way again. Its a horrible feeling. The worst.
Do what you feel is right. I was pointing out what I felt was right and wrong based on my life.
If you already have the mindset now that you'll give another chance if they repent. Then, yes your giving a freebie. This is IN MY OPINION. Hate me for it if you want.
@boots - You might say you forgive them. You might mean it. But forgetting it is another issue. Its not like something you can just forget. You can't just bury it in your memories or block it out. (some people do, not healthy imo). It isn't going to go away. It happened. You will think about it. I can't see how you CAN'T keep thinking about it. Sure I still loved my ex after it happened. She was my first. I'll always have a place in my heart. In fact, i've never stopped loving anyone i've ever been with. I will always love them. Love doesn't go away.
But because of that love, it hurts more. It hurts so badly. To be betrayed in such a way. To have the one you love... with someone else...
EDIT: Well,i'm done talking about it. It's just bringing up bad memories for me at this point. I'll just say that i'm selfish. Thats fine, I can live with that.
Posts: 91 | Registered: Jan 2011
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posted
And I think that not forgiving is unhealthy. People have more diverse needs than you might suppose. Some might not think about it at all - hey, some may enjoy thinking about it.
Love isn't always about exclusivity.
Stone_Wolf, apply some of that Heinlein you love to this. Remember Jubal's conversation with Ben about jealousy?
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
No boots...I don't remember that convo...from Stranger?
I don't agree with everything Heinlein had to say, especially when it comes to sex...I mean, he sent his favorite character (the one he based on himself) back in time to hump his mom! Come on!
Besides the reference, what were you asking me to apply?
KirKis: I'm sorry that this discussion brought up bad feelings. I think sitting it out for awhile is a good idea. For the record, I don't think anyone here hates you.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
I don't think anyone here has said it wouldn't be a big deal if their spouse committed adultery, that they wouldn't be deeply hurt or that forgiving them would be easy.
But I know people who have managed to truly forgive adultery and rebuild a strong and happy marriage. It was not because they weren't deeply hurt and they thought their partners affair was no big deal. It was because both they and their partner worked hard at fixing the things that were wrong with their marriage.
Not every instance of infidelity is like yours. Most people who cheat on their spouses, aren't selling sex for money. It seems pretty clear your ex wasn't committed to your marriage and certainly wasn't making any effort to repent of what she was doing. Under those circumstances, I agree divorce was your best (possibly only) alternative. But the deal breaker here, from my perspective, isn't that she had sex with another person, it's that she had no desire to change and no intention of building a committed relationship with you.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Stone_Wolf, yes, Stranger. But it was a theme throughout his adult novels.
And what was wrong with sending Lazarus back? The genetic issues were addressed and there was no coercion?
I would have thought the least you would have gotten from Heinlein is a clear sense that your own taboos are no more "right" than blue mud in your belly button.
"The more you love, the more you can love — and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just."
ETA: Here is the essence of the Jubal/Ben conversation:
"Jealousy is a disease, love is a healthy condition. The immature mind often confuses one for the other, or assumes the greater the love, the greater the jealousy. In fact they are almost incompatible; both at once produce unbearable turmoil."
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Now that I wildly disagree with. I do not believe that the marriages that can move past infidelity after true repentance are the ones where the cheated-on spouse gets off on the idea. If that even happens at all outside disturbing Heinlein books, that's not the reason 99.999% of the time.
Heinlein is good for many things, but relationship advice isn't one of them.
Posts: 232 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Lazarus was pretending to be someone else...he did his mom without her knowing she was screwing her son! It's gross without the subterfuge...with the lies, it's beyond gross, it's wrong, downright evil.
*shrug* I'm just not as open minded about incest as Robert A.
As to there being no limit on love...I agree, but that doesn't mean we don't have to live in a society that does put limits on it, and self imposed limits are different again. Also loving everyone and sexing everyone are different...and sexing everyone has dangers of it's own.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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Aerin, I am not sure what it is you are disagreeing with. My mention of people that enjoy it was merely an example of the diversity of feelings on the matter.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Both quotes. The entire post. People who don't intend to be monogamous shouldn't make the vows to do so.
If you're looking for a healthy example of different mores, Heinlein's fictional incestfest isn't a good source.
Posts: 232 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Boots...I am one of the least jealous people around. My wife's best friend (and now mine too) is her ex-boyfriend. The reason I'm not jealous is I trust her implicitly. Of course this took years to build up to.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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When I got married, my husband and I had two dealbreakers- hitting and cheating. The first still applies, the second depends on circumstances. I am not saying he has permission to cheat or it would be a freebie. If he did so, he would be working to make it up for quite some time, but it is something we could overcome.
Now, if you want to look at the question on paternity from one detached from the wife's infidelity, consider a scenario where you are in the hospital, meeting your new baby conceived vis artificial insemination. You get a call, um, we just realized, we used the wrong sperm on your wife. Your kid is actually the son of Bob. How would you then respond. My husband and I were talking about that and he was shocked when I said, I can see me having troubles bonding with the child, even though my genetic contribution was still there.
Posts: 2223 | Registered: Mar 2008
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quote:As to there being no limit on love...I agree, but that doesn't mean we don't have to live in a society that does put limits on it, and self imposed limits are different again.
I can accept society limiting what I am legally required or allowed to do because of love, but limiting how and what I love? I can't imagine anything more oppressive. Self imposed limits on love sound unfortunate at best. Why would we want to limit our own love except out of selfishness and fear?
quote:Also loving everyone and sexing everyone are different...and sexing everyone has dangers of it's own.
This I agree with. While I agree we should strive to love everyone, we do not and should not love everyone in the same way.
I've been with my husband for 25 years. There is something incredible about waking up every morning with the same person. After 25 years, the depth and breadth of the things we share is something I find extraordinarily beautiful. I can imagine that other types of relationships could be equally fulfilling, but I would not risk what I have to find out. Its too precious.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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quote:I can see me having troubles bonding with the child, even though my genetic contribution was still there.
Interesting reaction s-ette...why do you think you feel that way?
boots: I'm not sure I understand what your question is in regards to? Incest? Well, it is genetically bad (yes, not in the story, but in general) and a huge cultural taboo. There is also the difference in positions. Any time you have an authority figure doing the people they have authority over it is morally questionable, and you don't get much more authoritative then a parent. Maybe I got the question wrong, as explaining why incest is wrong seems like a silly thing.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
I am talking about the incest in the story. I agree that incest in real life is a bad thing. In real life there is not the opportunity to go back in time and meet your mother as an adult and an equal.
My point it that, while we are entitled to our own emotional needs (within reason) in a relationship, those needs are not universal nor set in stone. Assuming they are is not what I would expect from such a big RAH fan. Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Objectively, Once you've eliminated the possibility of conceiving a child and authority issues, there isn't any logical reason to object to incest. I do think, however, that most everyone has a pretty deeply ingrained revulsion to the idea. Its hard to say how much of that is cultural and how much is biological, certainly some of both but there it makes sense that evolution would select against being sexually attracted to our closest relatives.
(Freud was a pervert).
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
But I agree entirely and hope I haven't written anything to make you think otherwise.
And I'm a total live and let live kinda guy (when it comes to consenting adults that is). I do rather that people do not do...whatever it is they are into...in public, but that's just me. A certain amount of propriety helps keep society running.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
This is the problem with everyone being reasonable and agreeing...the board slows down to a crawl, quick, someone say something hopelessly ignorant but heartfelt so we can tell them how wrong they are!
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: This is the problem with everyone being reasonable and agreeing...the board slows down to a crawl, quick, someone say something hopelessly ignorant but heartfelt so we can tell them how wrong they are!
I'm a Rabbit and if a Rabbit can be faithful to one partner for 25 years, than any one who isn't is just a self indulgent undisciplined, hedonistic, A1 looser!!
That ought to evoke some "discussion".
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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posted
Stone-Wolf_, I don't know that there is any logical good reason for my assumption that I would have a hard time bonding. To make it more confusing from a logical viewpoint, I seriously considered adopting and never thought that bonding with the child would be an issue (and I still don't).
Posts: 2223 | Registered: Mar 2008
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I have two theories...one is that the expectation of of having a child which would in all ways be yours (you and your husband) would be let down. Two is that to accept a child who is of you, but not of your husband is in a way rejecting your husband.
Where as the adopted child, there is no expectation or veiled rejection, you expect the child to have no biological connect to you.
How would you feel if you had a sister who died and she named you and your husband as god parents (other then sad about your sister obviously)? In this scenario your niece/nephew would share your genes, but not husbands, like your scenario.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
I think that it is probably theory number two. Though I also think that while trying to come up with a scenario where there would be less emotions feeling of betrayal, I failed. I think there would be a sense of violation for me. I hate pregnancy with a passion (a large reason why I am pro-choice actually) and to carry someone's child other than my husband's would be extremely upsetting for me. If I am going through that hell, at the end, the child had better be my husbands. For me to be willing to be a surrogate, I would honestly need to be offered a million dollars (yes, I would turn down half a million). I also wouldn't do it for my infertile sister or my gay brother in law. At this point, I actually wouldn't do it for another child of my husbands unless it was a whoops and we are looking into permanent sterilization.
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That ought to evoke some "discussion".
