posted
I'll probably play it on PC, but I might (might) actually use a controller. Melee heavy games are sometime more fun with a controller and a rumblepack.
Depends on interface. Or I dunno, if I get frustrated with it.
Posts: 1407 | Registered: Oct 2008
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quote:Besides, I ended up spending more time modding Oblivion than I did actually playing it. Every time I installed a mod and started playing, I would think, "I wonder if I can make this better?", and I would go back to hunting for more mods. I got tired of looking for mods, but my brain couldn't let go of the idea that I might be able to make the game even better or add something cool.
This was me exactly, except with Morrowind. My interest in Oblivion didn't last long enough for this to repeat.
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
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quote:Didn't dig the Assassin's Guild story, eh Scott? (Not that I think it's a sign of good taste or something-it's just those two are the ones most commonly mentioned. Personally I enjoyed that one as well the most.)
I attempted to join the assassin's guild; when I got to the old man's room, I just couldn't do complete the mission.
In my current game (trying out the heavy-hitting fighter-type class), I accidentally killed a soldier while freeing Kvatch. Moron walked right into my sword while I was swinging at a clanfear. Dropped him like a red-hot penny. And OF COURSE, there's no trial, no inquiry-- as soon as I get back to civilization it's, "Pay 1000 gold, or be hounded by guards!"
Man!
So no Dark Brotherhood for me, thanks.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
It sounds like a speed trap, but worse. In order to increase city revenue, they're setting up manslaughter traps.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: It sounds like a speed trap, but worse. In order to increase city revenue, they're setting up manslaughter traps.
posted
I seriously cannot wait for this game. I'm playing Oblivion now and I'm sad that I waited so long. It's amazing! Although there are a few flaws to it, but that's to be expected with a game that came out so long ago. But Skyrim looks like it is going to completely change everything, and in a good way. The duel wielding, constellations, new engine, better graphics, dragons, and so on all look like great fits for a great game.
Between this and Zelda, I'm going to get my fantasy fix without a doubt!
Posts: 1324 | Registered: Feb 2011
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There's one thing Skyrim is really going to test, and that's Bethesda's statements that Fallout (aka the best oblivion mod) as an experience really taught them a lot about how to make games better.
Let's see, shall we?
I'm really happy I got out of the habit of autobuying games based on hype, a long time ago.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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What do you mean, Samprimary? That is, that Fallout 3 is the best Oblivion mod?
It's interesting to me that you seem to take a much, much dimmer view of Oblivion (and Fallout 3?) than, well, just about everyone. It's not that I disagree with any of the things you mentioned individually so far, in this thread at least. In fact I think they're pretty spot-on and well put. It's just that you...hmmm, make of their sum a much greater amount of bad than I do. That, and I like games and stories and talking about how they're made *heh*.
What's your opinion on Fallout 3?
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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To be fair, I agree completely with Samp about Oblivion and Fallout 3. I tried so hard to enjoy those games, and just failed miserably.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Heh, well Tom I hope you'll pardon me for sayin' so, but the vibe I get from you is that the hata' gene is pretty strong with when it comes to things like this. That said, why do you think you disliked them so much (or failed to enjoy them)?
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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These sandbox games where i can take my time and do what i like how i like are my favorites. IE Oblivion (my all time favorite),the fall out games, red dead redemption, grand theft series, the assasins creed series. they are not hack and slash follow the path games. There is a freedom you dont have in other games. You have to decide how to complete the storyline missions and you can do them differently every time. I tend to spend more time in these games just exploring and soaking up the environment than i do on missions. I also take a lot of time building up my character outside of missions. So yeah I am waiting for SKYRIM. I think my Girlfriend is getting tired of me talking about it.
Posts: 1661 | Registered: Dec 2000
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quote:That said, why do you think you disliked them so much (or failed to enjoy them)?
The out-of-the-box stories were terrible, not least because the illusion of freedom produced by the open world was rather curtly curtailed where they were concerned. The main plots, in other words, were the weakest parts of the game -- and the games weren't strong enough in the procedural part of play to allow user-created stories to fill the gaps.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: What do you mean, Samprimary? That is, that Fallout 3 is the best Oblivion mod?
It has long been a joke since Fallout 3 came out — since it took the general tech, open world, and gameplay concept of Oblivion and did it vastly better — to have called it "Oblivion's best overhaul mod to date."
quote:It's interesting to me that you seem to take a much, much dimmer view of Oblivion (and Fallout 3?) than, well, just about everyone.
That's pretty impossible. I mean, every time a thread about oblivion comes up, it's usually mostly just about modding it. When it's just talk about Oblivion proper, it's about how bad it is and what a vanishingly small percentage of people could bring themselves to finish it.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:That's pretty impossible. I mean, every time a thread about oblivion comes up, it's usually mostly just about modding it. When it's just talk about Oblivion proper, it's about how bad it is and what a vanishingly small percentage of people could bring themselves to finish it.
Huh. That hasn't been my experience of Oblivion threads. Not that there's a large sample size or anything, and I wouldn't be surprised if you had more experience with forum threads discussing it. Heck, we didn't start talking about mods in Oblivion over on SR (the other TES thread experience I've got, heh) for quite awhile into the thread. It definitely wasn't a case of, "Man, this stinks! But it could be great if..."
quote:It has long been a joke since Fallout 3 came out — since it took the general tech, open world, and gameplay concept of Oblivion and did it vastly better — to have called it "Oblivion's best overhaul mod to date."
Well, I agree with this.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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The sa thread on oblivion was literally called something like "oblivion, let's mod it and actually play it this time!"
Posts: 805 | Registered: Jun 2009
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I wonder how widespread that really is? The 'it's unplayable without modding', I mean. I won't argue that modding makes it much better, and addresses a lot of the very fundamental (and still strange to me even now) flaws, but its popularity-on consoles, even, not just PCs-doesn't lead me to think that's a very common outlook on it.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Its widespread. And at least from my own perspective, mods were the only thing that kept people interested. Its not unplayable without mods, its just really lackluster, and doesn't hold most people. You have to be really really really into the open world thing to forgive its gameplay, and even then....
Posts: 805 | Registered: Jun 2009
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How do you explain its popularity on the consoles, then? The widespread acclaim without mods, etc.?
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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I bought it for the console. A lot of us did. Brand name hype train, it was the next elder scrolls and it looked gorgeous, and we had read all about how the npcs dynamically interacted and made it a living breathing world where they all had lives, and stuff. I was really excited for it.
As for 'univeral acclaim' that is kind of a separate discussion about the pathetic state of games reviewing.
Posts: 805 | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: Huh. That hasn't been my experience of Oblivion threads.
I got to experience oblivion from at least three decent spheres: my countless gamer friends, the internet's wide swath of games talk, and my coworkers talking games and game design ... while making games in the industry! If I could sum up all the talk about oblivion I have encountered from these spheres, the condensed, unalloyed reception was essentially 'underwhelming, but at least you could mod it.'
To tie it in to what we're talking about, it's why the hype is diluted this time around! Oblivion — the product released on shelves — got really old, really fast. It was an underwhelming product. It's not a game that stinks, or that I would describe as 'unplayable,' — if you want a game very much so like Oblivion which failed in far more aspects to the point of being describable that way, check out Two Worlds — but it is my primary example of bad game design philosophy, principles, and execution. Oblivion is an example of bad game design. They spent so much money and time and poured so much effort and energy into it, painstakingly crafted a humongous, immaculately detailed world, made it beautiful, filled it with cities and mountains and whole climes, and then firmly, inexorably capped the worth of these assets to most gamers by having such a completely flawed set of mechanics at the core of the game. The end result was that Oblivion went to market for the PC as a modder's dream — plenty of fundamental material to work with (world, engine, etc), coupled with the whole damn game being immediately conductive to startlingly easy improvements in quality.
Now, to talk about its acclaim, that's talking about game reviewing. Game reviews from the 'industry' are bizarrely stupid. They were, in fact, probably about at its worst around the time Oblivion came out, but it continues to be so .. inexplicably clownshoes that it's difficult to know if it's improving. It's really a mess. When you look at the aggregate metascores of Oblivion, it's got a 94 - the same as ME2, Quake, Portal, etc. Top review houses of the time, such as GamePro, CGM, Gamer's Hell, and Gamesradar, all essentially rated it *perfectly.* Ten out of ten scores, and the like. It is easy (actually probably effortless) to dispute a perfect score for Oblivion. The reasons for a game like oblivion getting perfect scores despite, well, everything I can wildly gesticulate to in this thread, are numerous and profound and worth looking at, and already well known to people in the industry (to the extent that we know the game is specifically to game the reviewers — and my, my, do they make it easy for us).
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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I really have to disagree with you, I played Oblivion on console (i.e. no modding, straight out of the box) and put over 230 hours into the game. You don't play a game that much and call it boring. I have several friends with the same story, hundreds of hours put into the game, playing on the console.
The game mechanics were fine, not flawless, but not nearly as dreadful as you seem to be implying. The only mods I found myself desiring while playing the game, were ones that added new features like spell effects, or custom built enviroments and campaigns.
Posts: 2489 | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:I really have to disagree with you, I played Oblivion on console (i.e. no modding, straight out of the box) and put over 230 hours into the game. You don't play a game that much and call it boring.
Boring is a matter of personal taste. I don't contend that nobody could possibly have liked the game, I contend that the game is, from a developmental standpoint, a perfect example of bad game mechanic design and implementation. (to note, I also use it as a perfect example as to why platform/launch window crunch time — tying development schedules rigidly to platform launches in order to make your game a launch title, or the like — is a faustian bargain that will often sacrifice a game's potential, as well as the prestige of your company and titles)
quote:The game mechanics were fine, not flawless, but not nearly as dreadful as you seem to be implying.
I don't just imply that they are dreadful. I have set up a very elaborate and educated stance detailing in wordy detail why they are dreadful. To note, Bethesda doesn't even disagree that the core game mechanics didn't work out. They flat-out admit it in the case of things like the Radiant AI system. Officially, they may protest my wording, but — trust me, they know their gameplay mechanics were outright badly implemented, and after doing exactly what they needed to do as a company: postmorteming, investing in and observing from the expanded model of their resources provided by FO3/NV, and so forth, they know and openly express how completely that Skyrim needs to show that the elder scrolls series has caught up with the quality demands of the age.
And, since they HAVE had the benefit of handholding, ZeniMax's wider resources, and the experience netted from the development of the Fallout titles, I'm optimistic, if not guardedly so.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:I got to experience oblivion from at least three decent spheres: my countless gamer friends, the internet's wide swath of games talk, and my coworkers talking games and game design ... while making games in the industry! If I could sum up all the talk about oblivion I have encountered from these spheres, the condensed, unalloyed reception was essentially 'underwhelming, but at least you could mod it.'
Yeah, I figured that would be something along your experience-I meant that I didn't have a large sample size. Misspoke. I'm not at all surprised that...hmm, professional gamers? (something I think could be applied to professional designers, reviewers, etc.)...have some serious and very justified beefs with the game.
quote:To tie it in to what we're talking about, it's why the hype is diluted this time around! Oblivion — the product released on shelves — got really old, really fast. It was an underwhelming product. It's not a game that stinks, or that I would describe as 'unplayable,' — if you want a game very much so like Oblivion which failed in far more aspects to the point of being describable that way, check out Two Worlds — but it is my primary example of bad game design philosophy, principles, and execution. Oblivion is an example of bad game design. They spent so much money and time and poured so much effort and energy into it, painstakingly crafted a humongous, immaculately detailed world, made it beautiful, filled it with cities and mountains and whole climes, and then firmly, inexorably capped the worth of these assets to most gamers by having such a completely flawed set of mechanics at the core of the game. The end result was that Oblivion went to market for the PC as a modder's dream — plenty of fundamental material to work with (world, engine, etc), coupled with the whole damn game being immediately conductive to startlingly easy improvements in quality.
Well now, I don't know about that. For a great many people, it would seem, the game didn't get 'very old, very fast'. Can I understand why someone would have that as their gaming experience? Absolutely! Such as professional gamers, for example. I dispute your characterization when you suggest that your experience mirrors that of 'most' gamers. I think perhaps your specialized peer group is skewing your perceptions here-someone was sure buying a lot of Oblivion, and enjoying it a great deal, even without modding. They didn't seem to think their value was capped. For a great many people, so far as I can tell, it was a great game straight out of the box.
I don't think anyone could dispute that, with a (surprisingly little) bit of modding, it was made gbetter still. Unless the claim is that screwed up game reviewing processes are what led so many people to spend money and sink time into it, I think it's hard to take seriously some of your more harsh criticisms, at least when you start talking about what 'most' people took from it.
quote:Boring is a matter of personal taste. I don't contend that nobody could possibly have liked the game, I contend that the game is, from a developmental standpoint, a perfect example of bad game mechanic design and implementation. (to note, I also use it as a perfect example as to why platform/launch window crunch time — tying development schedules rigidly to platform launches in order to make your game a launch title, or the like — is a faustian bargain that will often sacrifice a game's potential, as well as the prestige of your company and titles)
You've gone a bit further than saying it was just bad mechanics and implementation, but I think the rest is probably right.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Unless the claim is that screwed up game reviewing processes are what led so many people to spend money and sink time into it, I think it's hard to take seriously some of your more harsh criticisms, at least when you start talking about what 'most' people took from it.
You should probably read that part more carefully —
quote:They spent so much money and time and poured so much effort and energy into it, painstakingly crafted a humongous, immaculately detailed world, made it beautiful, filled it with cities and mountains and whole climes, and then firmly, inexorably capped the worth of these assets to most gamers by having such a completely flawed set of mechanics at the core of the game.
'capping the worth of these assets' is different than measuring what you would call end-user reception. They don't even have to recognize what's taking place.
A example of the principle is if a game designer puts a bonus set of missions with lots of content in a certain part of the game world, and then it turns out that nearly nobody bothers with all that content or even actively does not know that it is there, because it's so far out of the way and there are frustrating logistical hurdles for the player to reach it. There's plenty of assets put into the game in Remote QuestVille, but they're not worth much to players. This is something that has to go back to the drawing board in the game's production, or the assets are, essentially, wasted. You could add greater incentive or requirement to reach the village by making it part of the main quest, reduce travel difficulties or provide some sort of transit, start the player in a different location, amp up the rewards of QuestVille and put some clues and pointers, until most of the focus testers are noting and engaging in that content.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
I put a lot of time into Oblivion/Shivering Isles on a console -- around 200 hours over 2-3 years -- but my initial run-through was quite frustrating due to the mechanics issues that have been discussed at length already. Because I didn't level my character "properly," several sections were in fact impossible for my character to complete without moving the difficulty slider. And there was no way for me to know, in advance, what "proper" levelling entailed, since it's the opposite of what you would expect given the way the game presents its skill/attribute system.
When I made a second character and created a custom class to get around those problems, I ignored the main story and focused on what I hadn't done with my original character: the Thieves' Guild, Dark Brotherhood, and Shivering Isles. That playthrough was a tremendous amount of fun.
I suspect that many players not fortunate enough to roll straight-up fighters simply got frustrated and gave up without ever finishing the relatively boring main storyline.
Edit: If I had to rank them, I'd put Mass Effect 1/2 head and shoulders above Oblivion, but they aren't really the same kind of game.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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Idk Samp. You might have technical reasons for why the game isn't good, but all I know is that when I play it, it's fun, and that's honestly all that I care about. Some of the things you are complaining about are just about open world games, which are very few and far between as it is. Not only that, but it was released like 7 years ago, which is a long time in the video game industry. Since that time, developers have figured out how to make the process better, which is evidently clear when you look at Fallout 3 and the various new additions they're adding to Skyrim.
Could Oblivion be better? Certainly. No question about it. But it is still enjoyable. In fact, I've already beaten the main quest as well as the theives guild questline and now I'm starting on the assassin's guild stuff, so I'm not anywhere near being done and I'm loving it all. The detail, the large world, the fact that I can do basically whatever I want. Heck, I can even start a pirate crew if I want.
There are some aspects of the game that I noticed were improved upon in Fallout, but I suspect that's simply because Fallout came out after Oblivion. With Elder Scrolls 5, they seem to have taken those changes and improvements into account. But even still, I really like Oblivion as it is. Honestly, the only thing I wish they'd added would have to be marriage and having kids. That would have really put it over the top as a "Second life sim".
As far as the reviews go, you have to remember that reviews are simply opinions. I could go and post a review of something on my blog if I wanted to and it would be exactly the same (except, of course, for the fact that my readership would be much smaller than that of a big name site). It would techically be a review, but it would still just be MY opinion. Reviewers are simply gamers who get to print their opinions and happen to get paid for it. It's just like what happens with films.
In the end, it all comes down to whether or not YOU are going to enjoy the game. So reviews are fine, and sometimes helpful, but they are by no means definitive. You may have thought the game was crap, but quite a few people I know have beaten everything in the game, bought the exansions, put hundreds of hours into it, and still wanted more. If a game does that, it is typically considered a success.
Still, we all have our own opinions.
Posts: 1324 | Registered: Feb 2011
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posted
What class is your character? That has a huge effect. If you're a physical melee combat class, you're fine, but quite a lot of the other classes are screwed if you try to play them the way they're "intended."
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:Some of the things you are complaining about are just about open world games, which are very few and far between as it is. Not only that, but it was released like 7 years ago, which is a long time in the video game industry.
Well, not exactly. I do think Samprimary was skewing pretty hard, but this isn't quite what he was saying either-his criticisms were mostly about the mechanics of character development and leveling. In fact he specifically complimented many parts of the open world angle. As for developers figuring out how to make the process better, that defense isn't very sensible considering it was modded and improved dramatically almost immediately. The changes weren't something they should have needed years to figure out needed to be done, when amateur gamers themselves figured it out in months (or perhaps in some cases days).
quote:There are some aspects of the game that I noticed were improved upon in Fallout, but I suspect that's simply because Fallout came out after Oblivion. With Elder Scrolls 5, they seem to have taken those changes and improvements into account. But even still, I really like Oblivion as it is. Honestly, the only thing I wish they'd added would have to be marriage and having kids. That would have really put it over the top as a "Second life sim".
I really liked it as-was too, but the mods which were not difficult were a major improvement.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Core 2 Duo 1.6ghz 2gb Ram BFG Overclocked GeForce 7800GS (AGP slot), 256mb Asus P5PE-VM Motherboard
You could spend money on a console, or upgrade your PC (which I don't think is an option with the above setup), or get a new PC. You want the most bang for your buck.
What would you do?
Posts: 684 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Even if the computer itself is unupgradeable, get a friend who can put together a new computer with parts from newegg. Usually, you can cannibalize the old computer for parts, like the power source, case, disk drives, hard drives, ram. I did this not too long ago, taking an even older computer than yours and spending less than $400 to turn it into a rig that plays DE:HR at high settings.
quote:Idk Samp. You might have technical reasons for why the game isn't good, but all I know is that when I play it, it's fun, and that's honestly all that I care about. Some of the things you are complaining about are just about open world games, which are very few and far between as it is.
Mm. I'll repeat this:
"I don't contend that nobody could possibly have liked the game, I contend that the game is, from a developmental standpoint, a perfect example of bad game mechanic design and implementation."
What I have been talking about seems to want to launch into the dreary netherworld of the assumption that my position or point involves, revolves, or hinges entirely upon the idea that it is impossible or wrong of someone to have enjoyed the game. Would it surprise you to hear that I had fun with unmodded oblivion for quite a while?
Everything I have explained about Oblivion is something I will stand behind as accurate and well-reasoned. I don't want to see what I have explained turn into things I haven't stated (like 'Oblivion is boring!')
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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1. Got really old, really fast: bethesda softworks noted in focus testing that it was really very difficult to keep the average gamer engaged with the game world to the point of completion, especially given the fact that they would often feel pressed to repeat the beginning multiple times. After launch, modding the game became THE thing to do to shore up issues people had with the gameplay. Most importantly, it released into stores already feeling a wee bit dated as a game experience. Not that it mattered if you wanted another go kludging at various baddies with a weapon, all Morrowind-style.
2. Underwhelming product: Most gamers who talk about Oblivion today think it was pretty meh. Those who remember and followed the hype (especially about the Radiant NPC system!) will describe it as underwhelming, because the gulf between what was promised and what was delivered was fairly high! Not, say, Peter Molyneux high, but still. Most will say that Oblivion really needed mods to shine because of the inexplicable shortcomings that such an otherwise ambitious title demonstrated. For a demonstration of this example, you could even look at ... this thread!
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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[total derail] Samp, I'm super curious how you communicate in person. Your use of exclamation marks to denote smug snark seems fairly unique. Do you do something equivalent when you're speaking aloud, or is it specific to online communication? Because I definitely imagine you speaking those bits, moreso than most of what I read on the forum. [/total derail]
Posts: 3580 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by umberhulk: ME1 is a mess.
ME2 is barely an RPG.
Icewind Dale goat.
ME1 is far superior to ME2, in my mind. I just finished both for the first time in the past few months, and I got much more time/enjoyment out of the first game. The only problem that I had with ME1 was the Mako grinding. ME2 was good, it just didn't grab me as much. And I do agree, it isn't really much of an RPG.
Posts: 1069 | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
I have to agree with Sam. Oblivion was a complete mess of a game. There were things in that game that just made me scratch my head. I remember watching some NPC's get stuck behind objects and because of that I could not complete certain quests (Dark Brotherhood).
Morrowind on the other hand was not really plagued by the same problems as far as I can remember.
I'll play Skyrim, but it will have to be on PC. Not only is it easier to mod, but it seems like bug fixes come a lot faster on the PC than on consoles.
Posts: 1937 | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote: Your use of exclamation marks to denote smug snark seems fairly unique.
When inventing a tone for me in your head, try reading it as something other than "smug snark."
*snort* Samp, he's hardly the first and he won't be the last to interpret your tone that way. I can't speak to whether it's a majority opinion or anything, but enough people think so (and have said so) that they're hardly inventing it-communication is a two-way street.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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The point of my recommendation would be wholly unchanged if you replace the word 'inventing' with 'interpreting.'
This is a really pointless derail. I apologize wholeheartedly to anyone who is confused by or annoyed by my tone, now, let's move on!
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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Yeah, but Morrowind has no learning curve in anything, pretty much. It's just freedom, with some gamebreaking equipment. Both games could be a lot better.
posted
Maybe it's like Star Trek movies -- every other one is good.
So, Morrowind was good, Oblivion bad, Fallout 3 good, New Vegas bad. Hey, everybody, Skyrim is going to be astounding!
Posts: 1204 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:Originally posted by umberhulk: Yeah, but Morrowind has no learning curve in anything, pretty much. It's just freedom, with some gamebreaking equipment.
Boots of Blinding Speed
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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