I'm not sure how the apostles/first presidency have denied or minimized the pain of those on the fringe. Who makes up the fringe?
It's certain that we don't know all things-- but as Jeffrey R. Holland said in 2007, we know "God loveth His children." And as Boyd K. Packer said to those suffering from same-gender attraction, "We cannot reject you, for you are the sons and daughters of God. We will not reject you, because we love you."
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Packer has also in his time as a member of the 12 advocated violence against gays- long time ago, but still one of his talks that he has never apologized for that.
If you look at recent talks where they mention things like leaving because of petty offenses, it is like, really, how many people are leaving because of minor things and if they left the church over it, it isn't minor to them. Also, there have been no churchwide responses to some issues which should have been responded to- such as requiring more training to bishops in terms of proper response to abuse, especially sexual. Woman should not in this day and age talk to their bishop about being date raped and told that since they didn't fight or kissed the guy, they are equally culpable and need to repent. Maybe my sample is skewed but there are a lot of bishops out there responding that way.
I can think of other examples, but I don't want to make this a listing of every wrong the church has done or anything like that.
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I'm done here. when a person speaks against an Apostle of the Lord for something that by all accounts depends on interpretation rather than fact, I am dealing with a full blown Apostate. I can see that repentance is a concept that is no longer accepted or desired. By the way, if you get raped go to the police and not the Bishop. Solved it for you.
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You're pretty crazy and full of it, Occasional, considering that what you just said effectively translates to you saying that a mormon openly disagreeing with you is no longer a Real Mormon.
I guess this is what drives your completely nuts social view - you desperately desire a balkanization of the united states so that the Real Mormons like you can set up a theocracy and punish all those Hateful Apostate Non-Mormons who shamelessly defy your own imaginings.
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Yeah, I'll whistle that. I hope you are done here, whether it's because you leave the infidels, heathens, and Apostates alone on your own or not.
There's all sorts of places on the Net for spiteful Christianity. Maybe you should go find one of 'em.
-----
Re: excommunication, quite right-I should've been more clear. I was talking about the sort of thing I believe Occasional would like to see happen, re: community reaction.
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quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: ... you desperately desire a balkanization of the united states so that the Real Mormons like you can set up a theocracy ...
Ah, Europeans and Canadians annexing Americans fantasy. Good times.
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quote:Packer has also in his time as a member of the 12 advocated violence against gays- long time ago, but still one of his talks that he has never apologized for that.
I wiki'd this, and the wiki said the talk was given in the October conference of 1976. I checked the conference talks from October '76; Packer didn't speak at all (or at least it isn't listed on the Church's website). I also checked the April session of the same year, and no dice-- Packer gave the well-known talk about spiritual crocodiles, but no violence is mentioned.
Here's what the wiki had to say:
quote:Quinn has pointed to Apostle Boyd K. Packer's LDS General Conference address from October 1976 as evidence of problematic attitudes in the LDS Church towards homosexuals. In the speech, Packer encourages teenage boys to avoid immoral activities, which he says includes viewing pornography, masturbating, participating in homosexual behavior, and participating in heterosexual behavior outside of marriage.[47] Packer encourages young Latter-day Saints to "vigorously resist" any males "who entice young men to join them in these immoral acts." Packer cites the example of a male missionary he had known who punched his missionary companion for making romantic advances. Packer says he told the missionary, "Well, thanks. Somebody had to do it, and it wouldn't be well for a General Authority to solve the problem that way."[47] After telling the story, Packer comments, "I am not recommending that course to you, but I am not omitting it. You must protect yourself."[47] Packer offers a similar warning against heterosexual advances, but without the threat of violence in return: "Never let anyone handle you or touch those very personal parts of your body which are an essential link in the ongoing of creation"[58]
The footnote for 47 mentions that there is a transcript of the talk, both reprints without permission.
The context isn't quite what you proposed, scholarette. I'm not sure it's permissable; and Dalin H. Oak's talk, and Pres. Hinckley's talks more recently make it clear that any mistreatment of homosexuals is not tolerated by the Lord. But there's a difference between advocating violence against gays, and telling boys it's not a sin to slug another guy who's trying to get in your pants.
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I wrote up a response but the thing is, I don't want to be criticizing the church. I want there to be some understanding of why people are hurt by the Church or choose to be inactive/less active/jack mormons/ etc. I do feel like often the response is seeing the people as caricatures of faithlessness instead or real people with real complaints.
Regarding Packer quote, that was kinda snarky on my part and was based on my memory from long ago. I remember my seminary teacher reading it to us and a lesson on homosexuality being evil and also some AIDS as punishment from God tossed in and being really annoyed at that teacher. Most of the lesson I dismissed as crazy teacher, but the Packer story I couldn't really dismiss and it kinda stuck in my head, but not full details.
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With what I said earlier, I was definitely caricaturizing a probably vanishingly small set of people. Not very sensitive of me in any context. I've seen many people leave the church or go inactive for a variety of different reasons, some based on their own actions and some based on the actions of others. Some have pushed the church sa far away from themselves as possible and some have attempted to keep parts of it in their lives. Some church leaders have been especially sensitive and good at helping people work through their issues without being judgmental; others aren't good at working with people and harm more than they help, even if they have good intentions. Some people have been more patient with their leaders' shortcomings and some have been less patient. There's no way to blanket large groups of people with one judgment from a church perspective; it shouldn't be done. Everyone has their own unique circumstances and deserves consideration and respect for their feelings. It's not fair to slap the label of "jack mormon" on someone and it's not fair to slap on the label of "orthodox mormon" (or something less than complimentary referring to the same person) because everyone has their own challenges and we don't really know what they're feeling inside.
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afr- I think that what you said was basically what I was trying for.
on the sexual assault stuff- I am not that old and I grew up with it being taught over the pulpit by like bishop, ward leaders that you fought to the death rather than submit to sex-if you weren't in the hospital, you didn't do enough to prevent. So, in a lot of ways it is not a big surprise that some bishops don't always seem some things as rape. The story in particular I am thinking of was not me so I can't give more details but basically girl and guy on date, make out, things go a little further than kissing, girl says no, boy keeps going, girl freezes, doesn't know what to do, terrified does nothing. Afterwards, goes to bishop and has to go through repentance process. A few years later she realizes that she said no and instead of repenting, she should have been at the ER getting a rape kit done. But the story of how good people lose their virginity told even now (and is often true) is kissing alone and one thing leads to another and they have sex. The two stories can be very close when told to an outsider but really should be handled very differently.
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quote: girl and guy on date, make out, things go a little further than kissing, girl says no, boy keeps going, girl freezes, doesn't know what to do, terrified does nothing. Afterwards, goes to bishop and has to go through repentance process. A few years later she realizes that she said no and instead of repenting, she should have been at the ER getting a rape kit done.
The realization that she said no "a few years later" is problematic for me. I don't think bishops should be expected to recognize facts about an individual's actions that the individual herself/himself doesn't even realize.
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She knew she said no at the time, but she didn't realize this meant it was rape. She had assumed that violence was required for it to be rape. In her story to bishop, she included the saying no and freezing but since she didn't fight him off, it was treated as consensual.
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I've thought about it, but its not as easy as it sounds. Right now, however, my problem is with the membership and not the leadership. It is kind of hard to "join a secluded cult commune" when you don't believe they hold the Authority of the Priesthood of God; no matter how they act or what they teach. Who holds the Keys of the Kingdom is a very specific and basic doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Its not like others where a simple "calling" is considered the equivalent of making your own congregation. More than likely I would just go inactive like so many others.
And I commented because you said something about me, and not on the subject itself.
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quote:Originally posted by Occasional: I've thought about it, but its not as easy as it sounds. Right now, however, my problem is with the membership and not the leadership.
It sounds like you actually have a problem with the leadership: (emphasis mine)
quote:Originally posted by Occasional: "31 But if he repent not he shall not be numbered among my people, that he may not destroy my people, for behold I know my sheep, and they are numbered."
There isn't enough of this going on in the LDS Church. Too much pandering to PR and trying to not look disagreeable. Sin and unbelief are rampant and no one is doing anything about it because a few newspapers and loud voices are screaming and gnashing teeth against the real and very specific teachings of Mormonism and Commandments of the Lord! The only real consolation I have is that a lot of them ex-communicate themselves (go inactive).
Doesn't that sound a bit like steadying the arc? The leadership is responsible for excommunications, not the membership. If you trust the Prophet/Apostles/Leadership, then let them be to handle it the correct way. Because whatever they do is correct. No questioning. They do, after all, have THE Authority and THE Inspiration.
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quote:Mitt is so Mormon his Israel policy will be centered on Jackson County, Missouri.
quote:Mitt is so Mormon, he will ask members of Congress to go home and pray about his economic plan.
quote:Mitt is so Mormon he’d ask the Elders Quorum to move him into the White House.
quote:Mitt is so Mormon that if he got elected all of the White House Pyrex 9×13 pans would have a piece of masking tape on them with his name written in Sharpie.
posted
Scott, the old men don't move people in. That's what the young whippersnappers are for. My dad was high priest pres for a while and he used to complain so much when they asked high priests to do things like that- elders slacking on their duties.
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quote:Originally posted by scholarette: Scott, the old men don't move people in. That's what the young whippersnappers are for. My dad was high priest pres for a while and he used to complain so much when they asked high priests to do things like that- elders slacking on their duties.
In my ward growing up we had the Melchizedek priesthood pass the sacrament on fast Sundays as a sort of reminder that all duties of the priesthood are important, and one should be ready to do any of them at any time. A new stake president moved in, a disgruntled high priest complained, boom, tradition gone.
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Well, in my parent's ward, the high priests are really old so watching these little old guys shuffle around with canes and walkers and then asking them to volunteer to move someone is just cruel. My dad's issue was more the able bodied one than a too important thing.
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That's hilarious. And proof that I've been hanging out with all of y'all a long time -- I got (or mostly got) almost all of those.
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quote:Originally posted by Scott R: Mitt's a High Priest, so he'd better ask his High Priest's group to help him move in...
As a (fairly young and relatively spry) HP, every time I volunteer to help with a move, my wife gives me a horrified look and gasps, "but honey, your back."
There are good reasons to leave it to the Elders.
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Having just been released as Elders Quorum President, let me just say that the help of the high priests group on a move was always much appreciated. We have plenty of spry young high priests in our ward, some younger than me. While it fell to me 99% of the time to organize a move, it was nice when the high priests group leader kicked in as well and got a few bodies there as well as trucks and trailers. Elders have the stronger backs on average, but high priests tend to have more resources at their disposal.
In a ward with any apartments in it, you tend to have more move-ins and move-outs, plus more families with little to no resources or family support, and thus the EQ is called on quite often to help. I bristle a bit when it's implied that the EQ is slacking when they ask for help from time to time. There were months when I had the guys out there every Saturday moving someone, sometimes doing two moves at a time. That's time away from all of our families and it's draining.
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quote:Mitt is so Mormon that his first act will be to make July 24 a national holiday.
I had to think and think about what this was.
Seriously? Are you sure you are an active church member? I didn't think it was possible to get far enough away from Utah that your ward never celebrated Pioneer Day.
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It's mostly "Up with Utah!" Which is an attitude I don't think we need any more of in the Church.
Sorry-- I'm a Pioneer Day Grinch.
I don't disagree. But being a fan of any aspect of Mormon culture and being aware of that aspect are not the same thing. The Grinch did have to stop and wonder what was up when he observed the Whos preparing for Christmas.
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quote:Mitt is so Mormon that his first act will be to make July 24 a national holiday.
I had to think and think about what this was.
Seriously? Are you sure you are an active church member? I didn't think it was possible to get far enough away from Utah that your ward never celebrated Pioneer Day.
It is... Since I moved to Hawaii 10 years ago, I don't think I've heard Pioneer Day mentioned once.
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quote:But being a fan of any aspect of Mormon culture and being aware of that aspect are not the same thing. The Grinch did have to stop and wonder what was up when he observed the Whos preparing for Christmas.
Oh.
I'd like to understand what your angle is on this line of questioning-- are you really wondering whether or not I'm an active member, or was that just a throw-away comment?
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posted
The comment was intended to be tongue in cheek. I don't doubt you are an active member. If anything, I meant to imply you were, at a minimum, exaggerating the difficulty you had remembering the 24th of July.
I have noticed a widespread tendency for Mormons to deny familiarity with or down play the importance of any aspect of Mormon culture they don't particularly like. Part of that is because we love the church and so we train our selves not to see the things we don't like as a defense mechanism.
Part of that is a defense against negative stereotypes of Mormonism. Stereotypes nearly always have some basis in reality but they are also always caricatures that exaggerate both the good and bad. I suspect all minorities have trouble admitting that there is some truth in the negative stereotypes about their culture.
But I think the major part is that aspects of the culture that we don't like, make us feel like we don't really belong. We believe that as long as we are striving to be worthy members, we do belong and we deserve to feel like we belong. So we lie to ourselves about the prevalence of those negative cultural things because feeling like an outsider sucks.
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quote:Originally posted by maui babe: It is... Since I moved to Hawaii 10 years ago, I don't think I've heard Pioneer Day mentioned once.
The church usually broadcasts a Pioneer Day concert on the church's satellite system. I know they did this year. Unless you've got some real rebels running your stake, it was almost certainly announced and broadcast in Hawaii. I believe you didn't take notice of it. I miss at least half the stuff they announce in sacrament and certainly don't remember them announcing events that don't interest me. I do sincerely doubt that it wasn't mentioned.
I find it a bit odd how divisive Pioneer veneration can be in the church. It's the only aspect of our culture I can think of which is officially pushed by the Prophet, integrated into the church curriculum, regularly featured in Ensign and spoken of at General conference and yet resoundingly disliked by many otherwise orthodox Mormons.
In 1997 (the 150th anniversary of the Pioneers arrive in Utah), I was teaching a lesson to the Gospel Doctrine class on pioneers (in accordance with the official manual). I did not say anything more provoking than "Golly, the Pioneers are good examples of faith and sacrifice" and it was the most controversial lesson I ever taught. I got shouted down by no less the the stake Patriarch who was adamant that we should not be spending time honoring the pioneers and that it was not an appropriate topic for a Sunday School. There was literally screaming and yelling I ended the class early before it actually devolved into a fist fight. I left in tears and it took a member of the Bishopric about an hour to calm me down. This is not an exaggeration. If you doubt me, I can produce witnesses.
Have considered the event for over a decade now, I think the controversy lies in the fact that pioneer veneration can so easily make people feel like they are outsiders. It divides those who grew up on stories of their ancestors that walked across the planes to Utah and those who didn't. Those who consider Utah home and those who don't.
My mother grew up in a small town in Idaho. They had a chorister who was from Utah and every year on the 24th of July she insisted on singing "Utah We Love Thee" in sacrament meeting. My mother claims that no one sang but this chorister, but she proudly persisting in singing it solo year after year. Even though most of the congregation had roots in Utah as well, they'd left Utah and were offended by the implication that they were outsiders if they didn't love Utah.
[ December 02, 2011, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]
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quote:Have considered the event for over a decade now, I think the controversy lies in the fact that pioneer veneration can so easily make people feel like they are outsiders. It divides those who grew up on stories of their ancestors that walked across the planes to Utah and those who didn't. Those who consider Utah home and those who don't.
Yeah-- that's a big part of it. For those of us who live in other parts of the country, it's annoying to hear constantly about how much better Utah is than everywhere else.
And then they have a whole two months dedicated to celebrating it.
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posted
I don't mind paying tribute to the pioneers. They struggled and toiled to preserve the faith in a very difficult time. They accomplished great things, and they are as much a part of church history as Lehi leaving Jerusalem with his family. It's when people want me to appreciate the unrestrained determination and faith of the Martin-Willy handcart company that I get indignant.
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quote:Have considered the event for over a decade now, I think the controversy lies in the fact that pioneer veneration can so easily make people feel like they are outsiders. It divides those who grew up on stories of their ancestors that walked across the planes to Utah and those who didn't. Those who consider Utah home and those who don't.
Yeah-- that's a big part of it. For those of us who live in other parts of the country, it's annoying to hear constantly about how much better Utah is than everywhere else.
And then they have a whole two months dedicated to celebrating it.
Don't worry. You don't need to celebrate not living in Utah. Your reward for not living in Utah is not living in Utah.
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I liked Utah while I was there. I wouldn't mind going back-- it's a beautiful state, and I found the people to be very kind. (I was only there a year-- YMMV)
That doesn't mean I want to have everything I love about Virginia, Wisconsin, Texas, Italy, or even Kansas held up against Utah standards and denounced as inferior.
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I've heard Utah venerated to me by people who lived there for many years. I've also heard it excoriated. Although the people who seem to hate Utah the most are those who have either never been there or who have driven through it on the interstate a few times.
I lived there for 11 years during and after college. I don't recall Pioneer Day ever having been made a huge deal of outside of maybe a picnic on the day of. My branch in MN celebrated it more.
I wasn't too sad to leave Utah, but more for the freeway traffic along the Wasatch Front than anything else.
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quote:Although the people who seem to hate Utah the most are those who have either never been there or who have driven through it on the interstate a few times.
When I drove across the country, Utah was the favorite part of my drive. I had to stop at least a half dozen times just to stare at the scenery.
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quote:Originally posted by maui babe: It is... Since I moved to Hawaii 10 years ago, I don't think I've heard Pioneer Day mentioned once.
The church usually broadcasts a Pioneer Day concert on the church's satellite system. I know they did this year. Unless you've got some real rebels running your stake, it was almost certainly announced and broadcast in Hawaii. I believe you didn't take notice of it.
Huh. That's interesting. I know about the Christmas Devotional that's broadcast the first Sunday every December, but I never heard of the Pioneer Day concert. Now I'm curious if I've just been missing the announcement all these years. My current ward doesn't distribute a written program, but I'm usually more or less paying attention during announcement time. Weird.
I'm sorry I didn't see this before I went to church yesterday so I could ask some of the members of my ward about it. Now I'll have to wait until next week and I'll probably forget.
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