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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Survey, Mormon Stories, and Uncorrelated/Cultural Mormonism (Page 5)

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Author Topic: Survey, Mormon Stories, and Uncorrelated/Cultural Mormonism
The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott R:
quote:
Mitt is so Mormon that his first act will be to make July 24 a national holiday.
I had to think and think about what this was.
Seriously? Are you sure you are an active church member? I didn't think it was possible to get far enough away from Utah that your ward never celebrated Pioneer Day.
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Scott R
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quote:
I didn't think it was possible to get far enough away from Utah that your ward never celebrated Pioneer Day.
I'm not a fan.

It's mostly "Up with Utah!" Which is an attitude I don't think we need any more of in the Church.

Sorry-- I'm a Pioneer Day Grinch.

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The Rabbit
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quote:
I'm not a fan.

It's mostly "Up with Utah!" Which is an attitude I don't think we need any more of in the Church.

Sorry-- I'm a Pioneer Day Grinch.

I don't disagree. But being a fan of any aspect of Mormon culture and being aware of that aspect are not the same thing. The Grinch did have to stop and wonder what was up when he observed the Whos preparing for Christmas.
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maui babe
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quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:
Originally posted by Scott R:
quote:
Mitt is so Mormon that his first act will be to make July 24 a national holiday.
I had to think and think about what this was.
Seriously? Are you sure you are an active church member? I didn't think it was possible to get far enough away from Utah that your ward never celebrated Pioneer Day.
It is... Since I moved to Hawaii 10 years ago, I don't think I've heard Pioneer Day mentioned once.
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Scott R
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quote:
But being a fan of any aspect of Mormon culture and being aware of that aspect are not the same thing. The Grinch did have to stop and wonder what was up when he observed the Whos preparing for Christmas.
Oh.

I'd like to understand what your angle is on this line of questioning-- are you really wondering whether or not I'm an active member, or was that just a throw-away comment?

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The Rabbit
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The comment was intended to be tongue in cheek. I don't doubt you are an active member. If anything, I meant to imply you were, at a minimum, exaggerating the difficulty you had remembering the 24th of July.

I have noticed a widespread tendency for Mormons to deny familiarity with or down play the importance of any aspect of Mormon culture they don't particularly like. Part of that is because we love the church and so we train our selves not to see the things we don't like as a defense mechanism.

Part of that is a defense against negative stereotypes of Mormonism. Stereotypes nearly always have some basis in reality but they are also always caricatures that exaggerate both the good and bad. I suspect all minorities have trouble admitting that there is some truth in the negative stereotypes about their culture.

But I think the major part is that aspects of the culture that we don't like, make us feel like we don't really belong. We believe that as long as we are striving to be worthy members, we do belong and we deserve to feel like we belong. So we lie to ourselves about the prevalence of those negative cultural things because feeling like an outsider sucks.

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scholarette
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I didn't know who Lavell Edwards was, but I am bad at sports in general.
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The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by maui babe:
It is... Since I moved to Hawaii 10 years ago, I don't think I've heard Pioneer Day mentioned once.

The church usually broadcasts a Pioneer Day concert on the church's satellite system. I know they did this year. Unless you've got some real rebels running your stake, it was almost certainly announced and broadcast in Hawaii. I believe you didn't take notice of it. I miss at least half the stuff they announce in sacrament and certainly don't remember them announcing events that don't interest me. I do sincerely doubt that it wasn't mentioned.

I find it a bit odd how divisive Pioneer veneration can be in the church. It's the only aspect of our culture I can think of which is officially pushed by the Prophet, integrated into the church curriculum, regularly featured in Ensign and spoken of at General conference and yet resoundingly disliked by many otherwise orthodox Mormons.

In 1997 (the 150th anniversary of the Pioneers arrive in Utah), I was teaching a lesson to the Gospel Doctrine class on pioneers (in accordance with the official manual). I did not say anything more provoking than "Golly, the Pioneers are good examples of faith and sacrifice" and it was the most controversial lesson I ever taught. I got shouted down by no less the the stake Patriarch who was adamant that we should not be spending time honoring the pioneers and that it was not an appropriate topic for a Sunday School. There was literally screaming and yelling I ended the class early before it actually devolved into a fist fight. I left in tears and it took a member of the Bishopric about an hour to calm me down. This is not an exaggeration. If you doubt me, I can produce witnesses.

Have considered the event for over a decade now, I think the controversy lies in the fact that pioneer veneration can so easily make people feel like they are outsiders. It divides those who grew up on stories of their ancestors that walked across the planes to Utah and those who didn't. Those who consider Utah home and those who don't.

My mother grew up in a small town in Idaho. They had a chorister who was from Utah and every year on the 24th of July she insisted on singing "Utah We Love Thee" in sacrament meeting. My mother claims that no one sang but this chorister, but she proudly persisting in singing it solo year after year. Even though most of the congregation had roots in Utah as well, they'd left Utah and were offended by the implication that they were outsiders if they didn't love Utah.

[ December 02, 2011, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]

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Scott R
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quote:
Have considered the event for over a decade now, I think the controversy lies in the fact that pioneer veneration can so easily make people feel like they are outsiders. It divides those who grew up on stories of their ancestors that walked across the planes to Utah and those who didn't. Those who consider Utah home and those who don't.
Yeah-- that's a big part of it. For those of us who live in other parts of the country, it's annoying to hear constantly about how much better Utah is than everywhere else.

And then they have a whole two months dedicated to celebrating it.

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BlackBlade
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I don't mind paying tribute to the pioneers. They struggled and toiled to preserve the faith in a very difficult time. They accomplished great things, and they are as much a part of church history as Lehi leaving Jerusalem with his family. It's when people want me to appreciate the unrestrained determination and faith of the Martin-Willy handcart company that I get indignant.
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Parkour
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quote:
Originally posted by Scott R:
quote:
Have considered the event for over a decade now, I think the controversy lies in the fact that pioneer veneration can so easily make people feel like they are outsiders. It divides those who grew up on stories of their ancestors that walked across the planes to Utah and those who didn't. Those who consider Utah home and those who don't.
Yeah-- that's a big part of it. For those of us who live in other parts of the country, it's annoying to hear constantly about how much better Utah is than everywhere else.

And then they have a whole two months dedicated to celebrating it.

Don't worry. You don't need to celebrate not living in Utah. Your reward for not living in Utah is not living in Utah.
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Scott R
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I liked Utah while I was there. I wouldn't mind going back-- it's a beautiful state, and I found the people to be very kind. (I was only there a year-- YMMV)

That doesn't mean I want to have everything I love about Virginia, Wisconsin, Texas, Italy, or even Kansas held up against Utah standards and denounced as inferior.

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advice for robots
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I've heard Utah venerated to me by people who lived there for many years. I've also heard it excoriated. Although the people who seem to hate Utah the most are those who have either never been there or who have driven through it on the interstate a few times.

I lived there for 11 years during and after college. I don't recall Pioneer Day ever having been made a huge deal of outside of maybe a picnic on the day of. My branch in MN celebrated it more.

I wasn't too sad to leave Utah, but more for the freeway traffic along the Wasatch Front than anything else.

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Orincoro
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I just found it hot and entirely too wholesome. But I was 15.
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Samprimary
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Requesting "Stockholm Syndrome" be renamed Utah Syndrome
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Xavier
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quote:
Although the people who seem to hate Utah the most are those who have either never been there or who have driven through it on the interstate a few times.
When I drove across the country, Utah was the favorite part of my drive. I had to stop at least a half dozen times just to stare at the scenery.
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Fubeca
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WOW! What a hate filled thread!
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Samprimary
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hello new member fubeca. here are your clutching pearls, enjoy
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maui babe
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quote:
Originally posted by The Rabbit:
quote:
Originally posted by maui babe:
It is... Since I moved to Hawaii 10 years ago, I don't think I've heard Pioneer Day mentioned once.

The church usually broadcasts a Pioneer Day concert on the church's satellite system. I know they did this year. Unless you've got some real rebels running your stake, it was almost certainly announced and broadcast in Hawaii. I believe you didn't take notice of it.
Huh. That's interesting. I know about the Christmas Devotional that's broadcast the first Sunday every December, but I never heard of the Pioneer Day concert. Now I'm curious if I've just been missing the announcement all these years. My current ward doesn't distribute a written program, but I'm usually more or less paying attention during announcement time. Weird.

I'm sorry I didn't see this before I went to church yesterday so I could ask some of the members of my ward about it. Now I'll have to wait until next week and I'll probably forget.

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