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Author Topic: Star Trek Into Darkness
Bella Bee
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They've released the new trailer for Star Trek Into Darkness (still having trouble saying that title in a way that makes sense).

I still don't know what to make of this. I was assuming the Khan rumors were nonsense, but 'I have returned to have my vengeance' sounds pretty Khan-y.

On the other hand, he's still a blue-eyed incredibly pale guy (not saying that people called Khan can't be incredibly pale, just that the last actor was really... not). Not that Scotty looks similar to the original actor either, so maybe it's not a big deal?

Thoughts?

ETA - The Japanese Trailer is basically the same, except for the last fifteen or so seconds. Worth a look. It adds a bit of emotion that was missing in the rest of the clip.

[ December 06, 2012, 08:41 AM: Message edited by: Bella Bee ]

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Stephan
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The whole vengeance on the world thing got my attention. Khan or not (I doubt it will be Khan) he sounds too much like Nero's character. Pissed off and looking for revenge.

I am hoping for some kind of science fiction/exploration element. What made Wrath of Khan (and to an extent Search for Spock) work so well was the blend of the big bad, with the wonders of Project Genesis.

The trailer as a whole was a jumbled mess in my opinion. Definitely designed to grab the attention of people who are just in it for the action and special effects.

I am betting someone (probably Spock) will be killed at the end to mirror what happened in Wrath of Khan. Or captured to mirror Empire Strikes Back. Sacrificing a major character seems to be a big theme in the middle of a planned trilogy.

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Wingracer
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It's Gary Mitchell, not Kahn. Don't know for sure but I think it's a good bet.
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Wingracer
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And if it is Mitchell, I think that would make Alice Eve's mysterious character Dr. Elizabeth Dehner.
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Stephan
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quote:
Originally posted by Wingracer:
It's Gary Mitchell, not Kahn. Don't know for sure but I think it's a good bet.

I know comics are not normally canon, but they did the Gary Mitchell thing in the current Star Trek comics already. Supposedly the writers of the movie are helping with the comic to make sure there are no contradictions.
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Lyrhawn
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Trailer looks terrible. It looks like Transformers mixed with Star Wars. At one point they visit Mustafar. And they borrowed Inceptions soundtrack. It's Star Trek, not Earth Trek.

Terrible trailer.

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SteveRogers
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I didn't think the trailer was absolutely horrible considering it's a teaser trailer for a studio tentpole event film. They've got to try to draw on the widest crowd as possible. I think the movie as a whole will have more of the character moments we're hoping for. Or I hope so.

quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
It's Star Trek, not Earth Trek.

This is my complaint. The poster and now this trailer don't show much footage of the Enterprise crew actually being in space. I don't want another Earth-based action movie. If they're going to give me an action movie (which I'm still hoping this will be more than that), I want space at least.

I will admit to being really excited about the first glimpse, early on, of Benedict Cumberbatch in character. I think the next few years are going to be big for him.

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Stephan
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Look up the Japanese version, very intriguing extra footage at the end...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=BrHlQUXFzfw

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Corwin
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Looked a lot like a video game. And not in a good way.
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SteveRogers
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quote:
Originally posted by Stephan:
Look up the Japanese version, very intriguing extra footage at the end...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=BrHlQUXFzfw

Unfortunately, I can't access YouTube at work, so I'll have to wait until later.
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Tarrsk
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That was pretty underwhelming. Lyrhawn's "Earth Trek" remark is dead on.

Having just seen the HD remaster of "The Measure of a Man" on the big screen last week, it's all the more obvious that J.J. Abrams doesn't fundamentally get Star Trek. Not that Trek needs to be pure Roddenberry idealism to be good - DS9 is my favorite series, after all. But it does need to, at some level, but about big ideas that expand the mind. You can do still that, even in our dark and gritty, Nolan-infused times.

Heck, Nolan himself does it quite well! But Abrams and his writers don't. They just don't.

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Stephan
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quote:
Originally posted by SteveRogers:
quote:
Originally posted by Stephan:
Look up the Japanese version, very intriguing extra footage at the end...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=BrHlQUXFzfw

Unfortunately, I can't access YouTube at work, so I'll have to wait until later.
Kirk and Spock's hands pressed together, with a glass door/window separating them. Look a lot like the end of Wrath of Khan.
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SteveRogers
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They're going to have to do quite a bit to further sell the idea of Kirk and Spock being "besties." They weren't quite to that point at the end of the reboot.
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Lyrhawn
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quote:
From Tarrsk
DS9 is my favorite series, after all.

We are Star Trek soul mates. DS9 has always been my favorite, and I can never get anyone else to admit it's theirs.

quote:
Originally posted by SteveRogers:
They're going to have to do quite a bit to further sell the idea of Kirk and Spock being "besties." They weren't quite to that point at the end of the reboot.

But that's the whole problem with this reboot. In the original series, they'd been a crew for awhile. THEN they had three years of adventure, THEN that had movies.

The crew of THIS Enterprise has only been together for five minutes, and everyone is basically 20 years old. Especially after the fairly contentious relationship Spock and Kirk had in the first movie, there is simply no way they'll be able to pull of a Wrath of Khan 2.0 in this next movie. I simply won't buy it.

You can't force someone to have a deeply felt emotional response to something through sheer force of will. It has to be genuine.

I thought the first remake movie was a great action flick, but it didn't really feel like Star Trek. It felt like Star Trek trying to be Star Wars. They wanted more flash, more action, more pizazz, and that's simply never been where Star Trek's strength has come from. Tarrsk mentioned "Measure of a Man," maybe the first really, really good TNG episode of that series. The entire episode is just sitting around talking, like many Star Trek episodes are, but it's undeniably powerful stuff, and I think it's those moral questions and quandaries they have to wrestle with, more than shooting phasers and blowing things up, that makes Star Trek special.

The visuals in First Contact were very shiny compared to what we've seen before, but it was Picard's struggle with vengeance, the Ahab/Moby Dick allusion, that gave it its power.

This new Star Trek is all flash and no substance, which I think takes it closer to Star Wars. I love Star Wars, but it's all above water. Especially the most recent three, it's all about fight scenes, space battles, as much CGI as possible, only mixed with the last 5-10 years of grittily re-imagining just about everything as ten times darker, tortured and dramatic than it was in its first iteration (such as Batman, among others). And Star Wars is fun, it's a good ride. The first Star Trek was fun, it was a good ride, and so might this next one be as well.

But it won't be Star Trek.

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Stephan
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DS9 will always be my favorite as well. My college aged cousin just finished watching TNG for the first time. Swore nothing could be better. Just finished the first season of DS9, and he agrees with me now. We haven't even gotten to the good stuff yet.
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Stephan
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I remember reading somewhere that DS9 had the highest ratings out of any of the Trek shows.
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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Stephan:
DS9 will always be my favorite as well. My college aged cousin just finished watching TNG for the first time. Swore nothing could be better. Just finished the first season of DS9, and he agrees with me now. We haven't even gotten to the good stuff yet.

Not even close to the good stuff, that's awesome. The first three seasons have a handful of good episodes. But Season 4 is where it really takes off and hits its stride.
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Dan_Frank
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Just a couple notes: I think all the TNG Trek movies were terrible action movies, including First Contact.

Also, Lyr, DS9 is definitely the best series. By a wide margin, in my opinion. The lack of Roddenberry "idealism" (yuck) is a point in its favor, not a mark against it.

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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Dan_Frank:
Just a couple notes: I think all the TNG Trek movies were terrible action movies, including First Contact.

Also, Lyr, DS9 is definitely the best series. By a wide margin, in my opinion. The lack of Roddenberry "idealism" (yuck) is a point in its favor, not a mark against it.

I agree! Especially compared to what we get today, none of the Star Trek movies are action-oriented romps. Other than the opening battle in First Contact, it's mostly very tense walking and talking, with the occasional phaser rifle being fired.

And it was still awesome. The newer movies are sacrificing everything that made Wrath of Khan and First Contact awesome to punch up the action. Apparently they haven't been able to find a balance between the two yet. I think the older movies did tension very well, but they all kept the action to an absolute minimum, in keeping with the show.

DS9 had more action than any other show, and it was high flying and impressive at times, but even then, my favorite episodes aren't the shoot 'em ups (though I do love them). The best episodes, like "In the Pale Moonlight," wrestle with moral quandaries. Sisko's was especially compelling because he strayed well over the line.

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Bella Bee
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
quote:
From Tarrsk
DS9 is my favorite series, after all.

We are Star Trek soul mates. DS9 has always been my favorite, and I can never get anyone else to admit it's theirs.
Weird. It's my favorite too. It really was a fantastic show, and the characters had so much growth throughout the series. If you look at Bashir (especially), Sisko, Kira... even Quark, by the end, they're just so changed from who they started out as. Loved it.

I'm not hating on this trailer yet, since I don't think it really shows enough to judge. I think the red-weed scenes and the volcano or whatever erupting might be happening on another planet, so I'm not too freaked out yet about it being stuck on Earth. I agree that it's somewhat lacking in showing the wonders of interstellar travel, though.

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Stephan
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quote:
Originally posted by Dan_Frank:
Just a couple notes: I think all the TNG Trek movies were terrible action movies, including First Contact.

Also, Lyr, DS9 is definitely the best series. By a wide margin, in my opinion. The lack of Roddenberry "idealism" (yuck) is a point in its favor, not a mark against it.

Insurrection is actually my favorite of the TNG films. I know I am severely in the minority for that one. But it slowed things down a bit. We got a little character development on people other than Picard and Data. We finally had a TNG romance that stuck. It had a morality story like in the series. It tied in nicely with the Dominion War, with a more desperate Starfleet.
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Stone_Wolf_
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I really really liked DSN, but not -more- then TNG.

I can't, off the top of my head, think of a single TNG movie that I can call a "good movie"...I mean, they all had enjoyable moments, and some were worse then others, but none were great.

And while I have never liked TOS, movies 4 and 6 were straight up awesome!

"There be whales here captain!"

" There is an old Vulcan proverb: only Nixon could go to China."

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Papa Moose
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DS9 was pretty good. I give it... four lights.
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Stone_Wolf_
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There are five lights!
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Tarrsk
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
And it was still awesome. The newer movies are sacrificing everything that made Wrath of Khan and First Contact awesome to punch up the action. Apparently they haven't been able to find a balance between the two yet. I think the older movies did tension very well, but they all kept the action to an absolute minimum, in keeping with the show.

DS9 had more action than any other show, and it was high flying and impressive at times, but even then, my favorite episodes aren't the shoot 'em ups (though I do love them). The best episodes, like "In the Pale Moonlight," wrestle with moral quandaries. Sisko's was especially compelling because he strayed well over the line.

To be fair, the comparatively minimal action in the TOS Trek movies had a lot to do with the limited budgets and effects of the time. Wrath of Khan has at least as much space battle action as Star Wars, for example. And as you said, DS9 itself is perhaps the most action-heavy of the Trek series.

So action and Star Trek can be a harmonious pairing. There's nothing wrong, per se, about the idea of "punching up" Star Trek with modern visual effects and big explosions. The problem arises, though, when you're doing that at the expense of exploring complex themes and ideas (the true "strange new worlds"), which is always what set Trek apart as a space opera.

Star Trek always dared to do what other pop scifi did not, which was to proactively confront the most trenchant issues of its day. It didn't always do so successfully (nor in ways that necessarily hold up over time), but it always made that effort. For TOS, those issues were race and the Cold War. For TNG, it was questions of existentialism and cultural relativism (and yes, the value of pop psychology). And for DS9, it was almost presciently on the nose about war and terrorism. In a lot of ways, Voyager and Enterprise failed because they didn't look forward to the "big issues" of their time - or when they tried, did so in ways that aped what other, more ambitious shows were doing better.

(All of that to say, I guess, that the best "Star Trek" series of the past ten years was "Battlestar Galactica." [Razz] )

Abrams' Star Trek fails as Star Trek because it tries to apply the Star Wars model of looking backwards to produce exciting storytelling. Which works just fine for Star Wars (or at least, it did once upon a time). But it's just not what Star Trek was ever about. Abrams has abandoned the actual mission statement that defines Star Trek as a franchise in the name of resuscitation. So I guess we shouldn't be surprised that what we get is Zombie Trek.

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Aros
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Bunch of fanboys. Enterprise was the best series. And the trailer looks awesome.
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Tarrsk
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Enterprise was awful. At least Voyager had the Doctor and Seven of Nine. And wasn't a god damn prequel in a franchise built on looking forward into the future.
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Bella Bee
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I still haven't watched most of Enterprise. From what I remember, the only characters I actually liked were the Doctor and the dog.

I do remember thinking that it had the worst captain ever. (And I say that as someone who loved Quantum Leap to tiny little pieces.)
Maybe I'll try to catch up on it over the holidays this year and see if I change my mind.

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Stephan
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Voyager and Enterprise had to worry about UPN network executives. I really think that was their problem. TNG and DS9 were syndicated. I remember a lot of good syndicated shows in the 90s.
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Stephan
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quote:
Originally posted by Bella Bee:
I still actually haven't watched most of Enterprise. From what I remember, the only characters I actually liked were the Doctor and the dog.

I do remember thinking that it had the worst captain ever. (And I say that as someone who loved Quantum Leap to tiny little pieces.) Maybe I'll try to catch up on it this Christmas and see if I change my mind.

The doctor, the dog, and Trip.
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Bella Bee
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Oh, yes. Trip. But unfortunately I did watch the last episode, so I can't allow myself to care about him at all. I'd actually forgotten the character existed.
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Stephan
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quote:
Originally posted by Bella Bee:
Oh, yes. Trip. But unfortunately I did watch the last episode, so I can't allow myself to care about him at all. I'd actually forgotten the character existed.

Ah, but that was an historical account of events on the holodeck more than 200 years later.
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Bella Bee
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So what, we just write it off as an aberration like Chakotay and Seven's final episode romance? Never happened? Because that sounds like a very good idea.
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Vadon
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DS9 was easily my favorite Trek. But is it really wrong for me to like Enterprise? Then again, I might be a bit weird since I really don't like Voyager, and TNG is hit or miss with me. (But when TNG hits, it hits hard.)
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Bella Bee
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Voyager still worked for me because I liked the characters. Not so much Neelix, but the Doctor, Seven, even Janeway were likable to me (I know that some people can't stand her, but it was great to see an older kickass, take-charge woman - who could fight the Borg and fix her hair at the same time - on TV when I was a teenage girl). Even usually dead, always boring Harry Kim was not a bad guy.

Enterprise seemed to be all dull, petty characters who I would actually go out of my way to avoid.

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AchillesHeel
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I'm going through Enterprise right now and have been pleasantly surprised. It is much more of a adventure story where much of TNG (the only one I've seen most of) is more often a human piece set in space.

Something makes me feel like stating that Q was the best idea for a character I have ever found.

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Geraine
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quote:
Originally posted by Stephan:
quote:
Originally posted by SteveRogers:
quote:
Originally posted by Stephan:
Look up the Japanese version, very intriguing extra footage at the end...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=BrHlQUXFzfw

Unfortunately, I can't access YouTube at work, so I'll have to wait until later.
Kirk and Spock's hands pressed together, with a glass door/window separating them. Look a lot like the end of Wrath of Khan.
I am not so sure that is Kirk and Spock. In the original Kahn, Kirk was outside and Spock was trapped in the room. In this trailer though the person on the outside is a blue shirt, and Kirk is part of the yellow shirt club.

I watched the trailer this morning and I don't remember seeing their faces in that snippet.

DS9 was good, but the first few seasons had way too many "filler" episodes. I think it was a challenge for the writers because the setting was always on the same space station, in the same part of space. It wasn't until the Dominion came into the picture that I really got into it.

Best Star Trek episode of all time goes to TNG. "The Inner Light" is not only the best Star Trek episode of all time, but one of the best episodes of TV in general.

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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Tarrsk:
Abrams has abandoned the actual mission statement that defines Star Trek as a franchise in the name of resuscitation. So I guess we shouldn't be surprised that what we get is Zombie Trek.

Well said.
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by Bella Bee:
an aberration like Chakotay and Seven's final episode romance? Never happened?

I love that bit. Some of my favorite fanfic is Chakotay/Seven fic.
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Dan_Frank
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
quote:
Originally posted by Dan_Frank:
Just a couple notes: I think all the TNG Trek movies were terrible action movies, including First Contact.

Also, Lyr, DS9 is definitely the best series. By a wide margin, in my opinion. The lack of Roddenberry "idealism" (yuck) is a point in its favor, not a mark against it.

I agree! Especially compared to what we get today, none of the Star Trek movies are action-oriented romps. Other than the opening battle in First Contact, it's mostly very tense walking and talking, with the occasional phaser rifle being fired.

And it was still awesome. The newer movies are sacrificing everything that made Wrath of Khan and First Contact awesome to punch up the action. Apparently they haven't been able to find a balance between the two yet. I think the older movies did tension very well, but they all kept the action to an absolute minimum, in keeping with the show.

DS9 had more action than any other show, and it was high flying and impressive at times, but even then, my favorite episodes aren't the shoot 'em ups (though I do love them). The best episodes, like "In the Pale Moonlight," wrestle with moral quandaries. Sisko's was especially compelling because he strayed well over the line.

Heh, I can't tell if you're intentionally yanking my chain or you misread me.

I think the TNG movies tried to be action movies. And they were terrible. The new Trek tried to be an action movie, and succeeded.

I can totally understand people who think the new Trek fails to live up to the shows. I don't totally agree, but I get it.

But saying the new Trek fails compared to First Contact, or, god forbid, Insurrection? Malarkey. Rose colored glasses.

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Destineer
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quote:
Originally posted by Dan_Frank:

I think the TNG movies tried to be action movies. And they were terrible. The new Trek tried to be an action movie, and succeeded.

Indeed.
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Destineer
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First Contact sucks. Why do people like it? Generations is better. At least it's a little bit Star Trekky.
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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by Wingracer:
It's Gary Mitchell, not Kahn. Don't know for sure but I think it's a good bet.

I think you are right. I can easily see Benedict Cumberbatch as Gary Mitchell and Alice Eve certainly looks like Dr. Dehner in the trailer.
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Bella Bee
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quote:
Alice Eve certainly looks like Dr. Dehner in the trailer.
*Looks it up*

She really does, doesn't she? The hair is exactly the same.

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Stephan
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What about Garth of Izar?

Io9 has a scene by scene breakdown. Cumbeatch does not appear to have godlike powers. He is seen in hand to hand combat, wielding a gun, and Peter Weller plays a flunkie.

Abrams likes flashbacks though, so Mitchell seeking revenge for the events in the comic are possible. This is how the first movie worked. The comics told the story of Spock and Nero in the tng timeline.

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Shanna
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Cumbeatch. *snort*

Sorry. I have to say that I'm looking forward to watching his name get butchered as his fame rises.

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Stephan
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Heh. iPad typing never turns out well for me.
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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Dan_Frank:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
quote:
Originally posted by Dan_Frank:
Just a couple notes: I think all the TNG Trek movies were terrible action movies, including First Contact.

Also, Lyr, DS9 is definitely the best series. By a wide margin, in my opinion. The lack of Roddenberry "idealism" (yuck) is a point in its favor, not a mark against it.

I agree! Especially compared to what we get today, none of the Star Trek movies are action-oriented romps. Other than the opening battle in First Contact, it's mostly very tense walking and talking, with the occasional phaser rifle being fired.

And it was still awesome. The newer movies are sacrificing everything that made Wrath of Khan and First Contact awesome to punch up the action. Apparently they haven't been able to find a balance between the two yet. I think the older movies did tension very well, but they all kept the action to an absolute minimum, in keeping with the show.

DS9 had more action than any other show, and it was high flying and impressive at times, but even then, my favorite episodes aren't the shoot 'em ups (though I do love them). The best episodes, like "In the Pale Moonlight," wrestle with moral quandaries. Sisko's was especially compelling because he strayed well over the line.

Heh, I can't tell if you're intentionally yanking my chain or you misread me.

I think the TNG movies tried to be action movies. And they were terrible. The new Trek tried to be an action movie, and succeeded.

I can totally understand people who think the new Trek fails to live up to the shows. I don't totally agree, but I get it.

But saying the new Trek fails compared to First Contact, or, god forbid, Insurrection? Malarkey. Rose colored glasses.

Hey now, I never mentioned Insurrection. I think it was an okay movie, but not one of Star Trek's best.

But if I was on a desert island and could only pick one Star Trek movie to watch forever (the island has power, and HD tv), the new Star Trek wouldn't be last, but it also wouldn't even be in the top 5.

Whether the old movies were trying to be high class action movies or not is debatable, but they were first and foremost about living up to the best traditions of the Star Trek franchise. I don't think the new Star Trek does that. I think it sacrifices that for the sake of flash over substance. And that's not looking back with rose colored glasses, it's looking back and remembering what made Star Trek Star Trek, and realizing you can't just put the name on a pile of CGI and call it Star Trek. The last Bond movie was awesome action AND a great Bond movie, but if we'd swapped out a couple characters and added a space ship, it wouldn't have been Star Trek. That's what this trailer feels like, and it's what a lot of the last movie felt like too.

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Sa'eed
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It looks horrible, like the first one. Another Star Trek film for people who never liked Star Trek.

Ugh, I really hate the trio of Abrams, Orci and Kurtzman. Two of these guys were behind Transformers, guys. Transformers.

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Stone_Wolf_
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Having never been a huge fan of TOS I don't know what it means that I liked the Star Trek...it wasn't just mindless action, they did a good job of capturing the feel of the characters, and then putting them in alternate universe so of course they were different. And I enjoyed it.
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