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Author Topic: Man of Steel
Jeff C.
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Apparently early buzz is great for this one and the studio is expecting it to bring in 100 million opening weekend. Regardless of whether it achieves that, will you be seeing it? Do you expect it to be amazing? Better than Batman Begins?

I'm very excited about this movie, possibly more than any film this year (yes, even Ender's Game). I've honestly been waiting for a good Superman movie since I was a teenager. This one looks like it could be it.

I also can't wait to see where the franchise goes, since if it does well we'll undoubtedly get sequels.

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steven
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I miss Christopher Reeve.
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Shanna
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I have never been interested in Superman stories. And yet I'm pumped enough to go with friends to see this at the first midnight showing.

I know I'm not the first person to express that thought and I bet that's what the studios are counting on.

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TomDavidson
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It looks catastrophically bad; Crowe and Adams seem to be slightly bearable, to the point that I find myself interested in a Russell Crowe sci-fi epic, but the trailers have been nothing but squishy CGI storm and fury.
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The Black Pearl
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It looks good and Michael Shannon looks cool in it.

The only CG I frowned at is the part where Superman's in the foreground, lifting up an object, persevering through a cg inferno. And I think a lot of the blocking and camera angles look cool. I hope Nolan just ghost-directed this.

Although, without looking totally garish the fire in the movie, in general, has this weird metalic look.

[ June 07, 2013, 12:17 AM: Message edited by: umberhulk ]

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T:man
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I'm going to see it opening weekend, but I'm expecting it to suck. I was really hyped when the first trailers carried an almost word for word quote from my favorite comic of all time, but since them I've realized Snyder will never live up to Quietly.

I'm sure we'll get some badass fight scenes though.

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rollainm
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I'm fairly excited. Like Jeff I've been waiting for a good Superman movie for years. It can be done I tell ya. Returns would have been great if it had a decent - well okay, it was a train wreck. But it did have a few things going for it.

What I really want to see is the Doomsday/Reign of the Supermen story split into two movies. Maybe it'll happen if this one takes off.

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BlackBlade
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New trailer.

Now with more fighting!

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Lyrhawn
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Trailers for this actually look pretty good. I'll catch it on a matinee in the next couple weeks.

I get a little confused whenever I look at the trailer because Cavill looks like Matt Bomer run through the Captain America beefcake serum.

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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
New trailer.

Now with more fighting!

Wow.

Looks even better.

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Samprimary
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i cannot help but think this movie won't have any grey area, it will either be really good or really bad
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BlackBlade
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The fact it appears the movie doesn't rush us out of Krypton, along with Superman's parents, which better ties Superman between two worlds, I think is a promising sign.

I honestly find Superman boring typically, but I would really like such an iconic character to get a solid movie (I'm ignoring the original ones, as much as I like Christopher Reeves).

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TomDavidson
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I hate -- hate -- when they try to tie Superman to Krypton. He's not the Last Son of Krypton; he's Clark Kent. He never spent a day on Krypton. He was never raised by Kryptonians. Krypton is a lead weight around his neck; his only association with the planet is literally the only thing that can kill him.

His origin is the least interesting thing about him.

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Samprimary
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am i correct in assuming that crowe is playing superman's dad, who is alive, on earth, talking to superman as an adult, am i seeing this right
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BlackBlade
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Sam: I suspect Jor-El is a holographic projection + AI that is based on his personality.

Tom: You can't escape the nature part of nature/nurture. And Superman does have a desire to learn about his origins and bring back some of those cultural sensibilities as he is one of the very last Kryptonians.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
You can't escape the nature part of nature/nurture.
Why not?
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Jeff C.
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You have to address the fact that he is an alien. Like Bill says in Kill Bill 2, Superman is who he really is; Clark Kent is the mask. He's a stranger from a strange land, even though he was raised human. He wants to understand himself, and he longs to know others like himself. He's the strongest man in the world, which makes him the most alone.

The point of them focusing in Krypton is simple. This is a journey of him becoming Superman. In order to do that, he has to search and discover who he is, which means coming to terms with his origins as well as the demons that those discoveries unleash. Once the dust has settled and he's proven that he's still "human", he can ascend to the protector status that he ultimately deserves.

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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
You can't escape the nature part of nature/nurture.
Why not?
Jeff covered it pretty well, but you can't escape what you aren't aware of. Millions of years of evolution.

Superman has to learn about where he came from. He's basically analogous to Tarzan. What makes Tarzan interesting is it's a study of what intrinsically makes us human. Superman is the reverse, so he is a case study on what can a non-human learn about being human. Even more, how can he personify everything that humanity should aspire to?

The best of us, is not of us.

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T:man
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeff C.:
You have to address the fact that he is an alien. Like Bill says in Kill Bill 2, Superman is who he really is; Clark Kent is the mask. He's a stranger from a strange land, even though he was raised human. He wants to understand himself, and he longs to know others like himself.

Bill was 100% wrong. Clark Kent is the only "real" persona Clark has. Both Farmboy Kent and Superman are masks he wears to conceal his identity.

quote:
He's the strongest man in the world, which makes him the most alone.
Supes has never been alone, not truly. And the distance between him an mere mortals is only shown to have any sort of effect on him after some very significant trauma, and when he is not in his right mind.
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TomDavidson
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quote:
In order to do that, he has to search and discover who he is, which means coming to terms with his origins as well as the demons that those discoveries unleash.
No, see, that's the problem; I think that's precisely the wrong direction for the character. Superman does not have demons; Superman is a farmer's son from Kansas who, thanks to an accident of his birth, is also bulletproof and can fly. If he has origins with which he has to come to terms, he's not Superman.
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T:man
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<3 Tom.
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Lyrhawn
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I think I tend to agree with Tom regarding Superman not having demons.

But I also think it's reasonable to expect that Clark would have origin questions. Where did he come from? Who were his real parents? Isn't that sort of natural for an adopted child, especially when your parents are aliens?

I don't necessarily think that means he has to have a huge existential crisis, but it's not like he's going to find all those questions irrelevant just because he grew up in Kansas and can fly.

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Jeff C.
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quote:
Bill was 100% wrong. Clark Kent is the only "real" persona Clark has. Both Farmboy Kent and Superman are masks he wears to conceal his identity.
How do you figure that? As Clark, he has to hide the fact that he's invincible, can fly, and is an alien. As Superman, it's all out in the open. He freely admits to the press that he's an alien from a planet called Krypton multiple times.
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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
In order to do that, he has to search and discover who he is, which means coming to terms with his origins as well as the demons that those discoveries unleash.
No, see, that's the problem; I think that's precisely the wrong direction for the character. Superman does not have demons; Superman is a farmer's son from Kansas who, thanks to an accident of his birth, is also bulletproof and can fly. If he has origins with which he has to come to terms, he's not Superman.
Yeah, I'm not saying he has demons per se. I was thinking more to what Lyrhawn said. It's common for adopted people to look into their heritage and try to connect to it.

That's all I'm trying to say. I absolutely agree that Superman doesn't have demons, or a dark side.

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T:man
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeff C.:
quote:
Bill was 100% wrong. Clark Kent is the only "real" persona Clark has. Both Farmboy Kent and Superman are masks he wears to conceal his identity.
How do you figure that? As Clark, he has to hide the fact that he's invincible, can fly, and is an alien. As Superman, it's all out in the open. He freely admits to the press that he's an alien from a planet called Krypton multiple times.
As Clark Kent he doesn't hide the fact that he's invincible, can fly, crush coal into diamonds, etc. He doesn't have to. He gets out his giant plow and does some farm work, eats breakfast with Ma Kent, and heads off to work in the big city.

Now, when he goes out to Metropolis and works at the daily planet, interviews Luthor, and sees Lois everyday, he needs to put on the mask of the bumbling farmboy who is too clumsy for his own good. He doesn't dress good, he slouches, even though he towers over most people in the office you would never know it because he's practically not even there.

Then he whips out his suit he plays the alien Superman, the Last Son of Krypton who tirelessly protects both Metropolis and the world, catching only a few Z's before returning back to his everlasting vigil.

ETA: Also in reality Superman is not an alien from Krypton. He's a mask that Clark Kent from Smallville puts on. Superman has never been to Krypton, he was raised right here on earth.

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Marlozhan
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I am a family therapist and I can tell you there is no way someone who has such stark differences in strength, flying ability, and hearing is going to ever feel like a "normal" person in this world, until they have worked through these differences head-on. We are very social creatures and we are highly prone to being judgmental of one another, especially when there are unusual differences.

This leaves Clark with two options:

1) Hide his super powers to fit in, which is not healthy for him. He wouldn't be able to keep such things hidden and feel like he belongs. He would always feel like an outsider. I work with secrets for a living and I can tell you that such secrets have a very negative, if subtle, long-term effect. One of the number 1 causes of human loneliness is secrets kept out of fear of being judged or abandoned. Abilities of such magnitude as flying and being invicible (2 of some of humanity's greatest fantasies) go beyond boundaries of basic privacy. They would be secrets indeed.

2) Reveal his super powers, which brings tons of questions and social judgment/awe/curiosity because he is different. He would need to spend time working through this and learning to develop connections to the world, despite his differences. Only by facing it would he release the toxic effects of secrets and work through the process of fitting in. This process would inevitably require him to face questions about his origins.

I don't believe he has demons because he's from Krypton, though there is evidence that traumas during infancy have long-term effects. But we can consider these negligible. He doesn't need to face demons, but he does need to face his own questions and the questions of others, unless he chooses option 1, which is not good for him.

In my experience, when a child's intuition tells him that he is different or that there is something not right about himself, and he/she does not get the right information to make sense of that intuition, problems ensue.

If his mortal parents just said, "Hey, I guess you just got the best part of the gene pool, go figure," that would be bad. That kind of denial would be toxic. Or, they tell him he is not from their world, and such a revelation could not be ignored. "Okay, mom and dad, thanks for the info. I am gonna' go play ball down the street now. See you for dinner." Not.

That kid has some stuff to work through now. He needs to make sense of this. He needs answers, he needs support, he has a process he has to face, if he wants to feel connected and secure.

Being the most different person in the whole world is no small issue that can just be ignored because you grow up on an all-American farm with great parents.

Now, whether or not he ever needed to become Superman is a whole different story on a therapeutic level. That would just ruin the fun of the movie, though, so we won't go there [Smile]


Now that I have said all of that, there is a 3rd, hybrid solution: He tells some close people so he feels like he belongs, but never reveals his abilities to the rest of the world. This could potentially be the best of both worlds, so he doesn't become a worldwide figure for the rest of his life, always to be targeted by villains, governments, and scientists. This would still require a certain degree of self-repression, quite similar in my mind to the days when homosexuals told their closest, trusted friends or family, but never revealed their sexual orientation to the broader world out of fear of being shamed or judged. It is better than number 1, but it is questionable whether it is better than option 2.

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TomDavidson
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Yes, you're right. There are some things about the character of Superman that are not strictly realistic.
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Marlozhan
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Yes, you're right. There are some things about the character of Superman that are not strictly realistic.

The whole point of the story is so we can connect to the humanity of a person who has super abilities and is an alien. Yes, his powers and origin are fantasy. But to connect, you have to be realistic about the emotional struggles he goes through so we can connect to the character. That's the whole point of this discussion about the story.

We are expected to suspend belief for his superpowers, but not about the emotional part of the story.

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Geraine
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My wife is a HUGE Superman (I typed Syrupman at first....Strange) fan. She forced me to buy tickets to the midnight showing. It is the 3D DFX IMAX (Whatever it is) version, since it was the only one showing at that time at the theater we go to.

I don't mind though. It is one of those luxury theaters with leather recliners for seats. I can always nod off if I need to. [Smile]

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Jeff C.
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quote:
Originally posted by Geraine:
My wife is a HUGE Superman (I typed Syrupman at first....Strange) fan. She forced me to buy tickets to the midnight showing. It is the 3D DFX IMAX (Whatever it is) version, since it was the only one showing at that time at the theater we go to.

I don't mind though. It is one of those luxury theaters with leather recliners for seats. I can always nod off if I need to. [Smile]

Oooooo good idea! I should pre-order my tickets...
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Magson
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Interesting Review

quote:
That speech in Kill Bill is 100% erroneous – Superman is unique from other heroes in that he does not have a split identity. Superman is Clark Kent, and Clark Kent is Superman, and if he puts on a front in certain situations to maintain some semblance of peace and order in his life, his own identity is sound, singular, and unified. Man of Steel, as an origin story, deals with duality not as an ongoing truth of the character, but a struggle he must overcome to reach his full potential.

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TomDavidson
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Man, that dude loves hyperbole.

quote:
These are artistic philosophies that Rogen and Goldberg have always appeared to live by, but in This is the End, their grasp on the form is stronger than ever. It is as clear a contemporary example as I can point to of a comedy nailing every part of the big picture evenly, across the board, and I think the way the audience’s laughter practically drowns out the soundtrack by the time the final minutes roll around is proof of what legitimate depth does for comedy. This is the End is an unexpectedly poignant, side-splittingly hilarious treat, unique from everything else I have seen this year and truly, endlessly surprising in its extreme audacity.

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Foust
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I just saw it, and I thought it was pretty good. This post has only the most basic spoilers - e.g., Superman and Lois Lane kiss - so I think it is ok to read if you haven't seen the movie.

Zod isn't really much of a villain; they give lip service to the idea that he's a complex and grey, but he's really just a mustache twirler.

There's no real chemistry between Superman and Lois Lane. If I didn't know the characters, I would have assumed their first kiss was stress related horniness rather than anything romantic.

Superman doesn't really get a chance to be capital-G Good. In terms of his moral disposition, he's a standard good guy. The Russel Crowe speech you hear in the trailer (ripped from All Star Superman) about humans joining him in the sun doesn't really pay off.

And now for the good: the action scenes in this movie are perhaps the best I've ever seen in a comic book movie. I think they top the White House assault in X-Men 2, anything in Iron Man or Nolan Batman, and perhaps even top the climatic Avengers battle. The edge the Avengers might have is the humor.

Clark Kent's main conflict is his attempt to fit in, and this is handled really well - with one glaring hickup, in which Kent does something rather passive aggressive - the truck scene, You'll know it when you see it. The trailer lays it out well: Pa Kent wants him to be very careful about concealing his powers because of how he thinks the world will react. Kent's life before Superman nails that conflict, but once Zod shows up, Superman benefits from the comparison with Zod and earns the trust of many humans quite easily.

Russel Crowe nails it. I say this on the strength of living Jor-El vs hologram Jor-El: hologram Jor-El is just a shade less expressive and emotional; it is clearly a copy of the passionate man you see in the beginning.

I realized one thing about watching this movie: there is no way for them to top the fight scenes; there is no real way to have any variations. Why? Because the environment is completely irrelavent. When the X-Men or the Avengers (for the most part) get into a fight, the buildings around them, the ground and weapons are all factors which necessitate a diversity of tactics. Superman, on the other hand, can see through and punch through his environment. Every fight in which he cuts lose will be a variation on the exact same tactics, over and over. His primary villain, Luthor, is not about combat spectacle, but given the extraordinary achievement of this movie's battle scenes, I wonder if anything else could ever live up to the thrill.

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Foust
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Oh, and I agree with the paragraph Magson quoted, at least insofar as this movie is concerned - not necessarily the character of Superman full stop.
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Chris Bridges
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My quick review: After all these years, Jon Peters finally got the Superman movie he wanted.
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Dan_Frank
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Supes fights a giant spider in the third act?
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Chris Bridges
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Damn near.
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Elison R. Salazar
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Movie Bob I think agrees with Tom.
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Jeff C.
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I saw it and I rather enjoyed it. It's high thrills, amazing CGI, and gritty and realistic superman. This is definitely not Chris Reeves anymore.

And if you ask me, that's just fine. The Superman of the 80s was great for the 80s. That was before 9/11 and the crappy state of current affairs. I also like the fact that Superman acts like a real person and makes realistic decisions in this film. While Chris Reeves will always be brilliant in the role, this new version is still a great change of pace and provides a fresh perspective on one of the oldest superhero characters in the world.

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Vadon
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quote:
Originally posted by Chris Bridges:
My quick review: After all these years, Jon Peters finally got the Superman movie he wanted.

Heh. I get that reference.
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Geraine
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quote:
Originally posted by Dan_Frank:
Supes fights a giant spider in the third act?

I leaned over to my wife during that part and said "I've seen enough hentai to know where this is going."

She didn't get it. :/

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Samprimary
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this was the best Dragonball Z movie i have ever seen.
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The Black Pearl
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Did someone do "solar flare"?
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Lyrhawn
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By and large I liked it.

I thought it was insanely, overbearingly loud, but maybe that was just my theater, but almost everyone I looked at had a hand or finger partially covering their ears.

I thought the fights went on way, way too long. I get it, you're invincible and you can throw other invincible people through skyscrapers and what not. Let's move on, please.

I see the DBZ joke, though frankly a Superman on Superman fight was always going to be like that.

I think the parts that were well done were very, very well done. Cavill was very convincing. The heart strings moments were well pulled. The end of the fight with Zod was really good.

All in all, I call it a surprising delight.

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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Foust:



And now for the good: the action scenes in this movie are perhaps the best I've ever seen in a comic book movie. I think they top the White House assault in X-Men 2, anything in Iron Man or Nolan Batman, and perhaps even top the climatic Avengers battle. The edge the Avengers might have is the humor.

I had to read like 6 paragraphs before you, out of the blue, disqualified your opinions on film from consideration ever again.

You should state before all future postings that you think the avengers battle sequence is distinguished as quality cinema. That is all.

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T:man
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It was alright.

Honestly I'm a bit disapointed, Pa Kent was just dumb, Zod didn't have anyone kneel, Lois was boring and her investigation seemed contrived, and worst of all they all had horrible teeth.

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Jeff C.
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quote:
Originally posted by Orincoro:
quote:
Originally posted by Foust:



And now for the good: the action scenes in this movie are perhaps the best I've ever seen in a comic book movie. I think they top the White House assault in X-Men 2, anything in Iron Man or Nolan Batman, and perhaps even top the climatic Avengers battle. The edge the Avengers might have is the humor.

I had to read like 6 paragraphs before you, out of the blue, disqualified your opinions on film from consideration ever again.

You should state before all future postings that you think the avengers battle sequence is distinguished as quality cinema. That is all.

He's speaking purely about comic book action scenes, not high art. And he's not wrong. That entire action scene in the Avengers is very well done and very entertaining. Why? Because it's a summer action movie and it's not trying to be anything else. He also stated that the humor is what sets the marvel films apart, which in my opinion is pretty on the nose.

quote:
Honestly I'm a bit disapointed, Pa Kent was just dumb,
Why?

quote:
Zod didn't have anyone kneel
You're comparing him to the Superman 2 version, which is silly. The Zod in that movie was extremely cheesy and wouldn't work very well in a realistic Superman movie. What kind of realistic person would make people kneel? Zod wasn't trying to rule over humanity; he's trying to save his race. Why would he want them to kneel? Besides, when Loki did it in The Avengers, I seriously cringed. It just wouldn't work today. Did you also expect Superman to rip off his "S" symbol and fling it at them like he did in Superman 2? Because that made absolutely no sense at the time, but no one seems to remember that when they're defending it.

quote:
Lois was boring and her investigation seemed contrived
She seemed like a realistic human being to me. As for her investigation, I don't really know what you mean. She followed up on tall tales and researched them until they eventually led her to Clark. Doesn't really seem very contrived.

quote:
worst of all they all had horrible teeth.
Because real people have perfect teeth...? How did you even notice this? Were you actively looking for reasons to hate it?
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Foust
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quote:
Originally posted by Orincoro:
quote:
Originally posted by Foust:



And now for the good: the action scenes in this movie are perhaps the best I've ever seen in a comic book movie. I think they top the White House assault in X-Men 2, anything in Iron Man or Nolan Batman, and perhaps even top the climatic Avengers battle. The edge the Avengers might have is the humor.

I had to read like 6 paragraphs before you, out of the blue, disqualified your opinions on film from consideration ever again.

You should state before all future postings that you think the avengers battle sequence is distinguished as quality cinema. That is all.

My, aren't we feeling edgy today. Getting a headstart on the Avengers backlash?
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Chris Bridges
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Posted my review here.

Not posting specifics here since there's no spoiler warning in the title, but it boils down to this: At the pivotal scene in the movie, Clark makes a choice I cannot reconcile with what I believe makes Superman Superman. Simple as that.

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Lyrhawn
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quote:
This should have been the moment when Superman transcends the situation. When he outthinks his opponent, uses something besides brute strength, sacrifices himself if necessary, doesg something none of us (or Zod) expect, refuses to accept a no-win scenario. This should have been the moment to make all of us watching feel triumphant, inspired.
Superman is Captain Kirk?

I agree with some of your criticisms. But I'm not at all surprised. Dark is the buzzword in movie remakes these days. EVERYTHING has to be edgy and moody. It made sense with Batman because Batman was always the darkest of the big heroes. So even America's Boy Scout can't come out of today's movies without issues.

It seems no one wants a perfectly upstanding hero these days.

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