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Author Topic: Man of Steel
Aros
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quote:
Originally posted by Chris Bridges:
Posted my review here.

Not posting specifics here since there's no spoiler warning in the title, but it boils down to this: At the pivotal scene in the movie, Clark makes a choice I cannot reconcile with what I believe makes Superman Superman. Simple as that.

MORE SPOILERS-------------------------
Here's a counter-argument that I think is . . . well . . . more valid.

http://www.craveonline.com/film/articles/521147-editorial-shut-up-about-the-man-of-steel-controversy

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TomDavidson
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quote:
It humanizes Superman quite a bit and, Superman being a character whom many exalt to godhood
I just need to point out that the film "humanizes" Superman while ladling on the Christ metaphors. *rolls eyes* It was as terrible as I thought it was going to be, sadly.
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The Black Pearl
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
quote:
This should have been the moment when Superman transcends the situation. When he outthinks his opponent, uses something besides brute strength, sacrifices himself if necessary, doesg something none of us (or Zod) expect, refuses to accept a no-win scenario. This should have been the moment to make all of us watching feel triumphant, inspired.
Superman is Captain Kirk?

I agree with some of your criticisms. But I'm not at all surprised. Dark is the buzzword in movie remakes these days. EVERYTHING has to be edgy and moody. It made sense with Batman because Batman was always the darkest of the big heroes. So even America's Boy Scout can't come out of today's movies without issues.

It seems no one wants a perfectly upstanding hero these days.

Captain America
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Lyrhawn
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I never saw his first movie, but the second one looks interesting.

He was a Boy Scout in Avengers, but really only to serve as a foil for every other character who was not. But I would be surprised if he keeps that up in the next movie.

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The Black Pearl
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He actually does begin to get a little edgier, in the Winter Soldier graphic novel/series.
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Jeff C.
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quote:
Originally posted by umberhulk:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
quote:
This should have been the moment when Superman transcends the situation. When he outthinks his opponent, uses something besides brute strength, sacrifices himself if necessary, doesg something none of us (or Zod) expect, refuses to accept a no-win scenario. This should have been the moment to make all of us watching feel triumphant, inspired.
Superman is Captain Kirk?

I agree with some of your criticisms. But I'm not at all surprised. Dark is the buzzword in movie remakes these days. EVERYTHING has to be edgy and moody. It made sense with Batman because Batman was always the darkest of the big heroes. So even America's Boy Scout can't come out of today's movies without issues.

It seems no one wants a perfectly upstanding hero these days.

Captain America
By far the most uninteresting of the main heroes. And by main heroes, I mean those with their own movies.
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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by Foust:

I had to read like 6 paragraphs before you, out of the blue, disqualified your opinions on film from consideration ever again.

You should state before all future postings that you think the avengers battle sequence is distinguished as quality cinema. That is all.
[/QUOTE]My, aren't we feeling edgy today. Getting a headstart on the Avengers backlash? [/QB][/QUOTE]

Heh. Well, it's not *blacklash* in the sense that I had nothing invested in Avengers, and my initial reaction was largely negative (not to the entire movie- just to this sequence). I commented even while first viewing the scene, that I wished it would end, or at least stop attacking my eyes with such ferocity. Sadly, it went on another 20 minutes.

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Jeff C.
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I enjoyed the Avengers, too. In fact, the only recent big budget Superhero movie like these films that just completely dropped the ball and made me hate it was Green Lantern.
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Chris Bridges
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quote:
Here's a counter-argument that I think is . . . well . . . more valid.

Shut Up About the Man of Steel Controversy

Yes, "shut up" is certainly a more compelling argument (or, more likely, an SEO-grabbing linkbait title).

I never once argued that my version of Superman is the only one. I believe I said that explicitly in my review. But I also pre-answered this guy's arguments regarding past stupid plot choices, so.

The story arc is how a boy becomes a man, and then a hero. He shouldn't have had to learn "oops, better not do that again," that should have been ingrained bone-deep.

The core of Superman is his moral center. It's what makes him different from the other heroes, why he's considered the greatest of them all. I don't need to see him flawed to consider him relatable, and I think it's kind of sad so many people do.

This may be your Superman. It's not mine, and this guy telling me to shut up about it probably isn't going to convince me otherwise.

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Chris Bridges
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quote:
You should state before all future postings that you think the avengers battle sequence is distinguished as quality cinema.
I do. Of course, you haven't explained what "quality cinema" is supposed to mean, here.

The final battle in Avengers had a lot of what Man of Steel lacked. For one thing, there were civilians everywhere and the heroes were clearly aware of them and trying to save them at every opportunity. A few scenes like that would have helped Man of Steel immeasurably.

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by umberhulk:
Did someone do "solar flare"?

probably, who cares. strange thing about this movie is that Jesus Goku Christ's backstory was remade a little bit to superficially resemble Superman's backstory. Superficially.
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Foust
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So it seems like there are two main criticisms of the movie: the generic Christ stuff, and the lack of shining, absolute morality.

I don't think either is particularily daming. The Christ imagery was *not* overbearing, and come on, it's a guy who was sent to the Earth by his father. It's hard to get away from it.

Superman as paragon of absolute virtue is a relatively new phenomenon: he's always been a really good guy, of course, but so is every super hero! Super goodness has only been one of his powers since DC started playing up Batman's darkness, back when Frank Miller got his gloves on him. Superman is Batman's foil. All-Star Superman has been canonized, and yeah, I would like to have seen more influence from that comic beyond Crowe's voiceover, but I don't think we can really say it is a betrayal of Superman's character.

Did he have to kill Zod? Nah. That was dumb.

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Aros
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Wow. Spoilers much? Someone please mark up the whole thread.
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Aros
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quote:
Originally posted by Chris Bridges:
quote:
Here's a counter-argument that I think is . . . well . . . more valid.

Shut Up About the Man of Steel Controversy

The core of Superman is his moral center. It's what makes him different from the other heroes, why he's considered the greatest of them all. I don't need to see him flawed to consider him relatable, and I think it's kind of sad so many people do.

This may be your Superman. It's not mine, and this guy telling me to shut up about it probably isn't going to convince me otherwise.

SPOILERS:------------------

He killed Doomsday. That's about as canon as it gets. But well argued, certainly.

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TomDavidson
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To be fair, he "killed" Doomsday only because they punched each other for so long that they both died of exhaustion.

But, yes, Superman has -- in a few bad stories -- killed a handful of times before. In fact, you can often recognize a bad Superman story by whether or not he kills somebody.

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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
To be fair, he "killed" Doomsday only because they punched each other for so long that they both died of exhaustion.

That seems like a cop out. Superman is throwing all his strength into his blows. Even normal people will once in awhile die if they get punched in the right places.
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Geraine
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quote:
Originally posted by Chris Bridges:
quote:
You should state before all future postings that you think the avengers battle sequence is distinguished as quality cinema.
I do. Of course, you haven't explained what "quality cinema" is supposed to mean, here.

The final battle in Avengers had a lot of what Man of Steel lacked. For one thing, there were civilians everywhere and the heroes were clearly aware of them and trying to save them at every opportunity. A few scenes like that would have helped Man of Steel immeasurably.

To be fair, the whole reason Superman killed Zod was to save a family of civilians. You can tell that he didn't want to do it, and his cries of anguish at the end showed that he IS that paragon of morality. He hated himself for doing it.

And let's not forget there are still a bunch of Kryptonians trapped in the Phantom Zone. Who knows? Maybe one day they will break out. I for one would like to see more of Feora (Or however you spell her name). She made a better villain than Zod.

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Geraine
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Bah double post. Sorry, BB would you mind deleting this?

[ June 18, 2013, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: Geraine ]

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Jeff C.
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I don't see the problem with him killing someone if it means saving the world. No person living in the real world would be able to not kill in that kind of situation. Even Vash the Stampede killed a guy to save innocent civilians (and his whole 'thing' was that he would never kill). Even Batman has killed before, and that's his one rule (that whole "I don't have to save you" line in Batman Begins doesn't justify him leaving a man for dead).
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Aros
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SPOILERS-------------

It wasn't just the civilians RIGHT THERE . . . Zod made it clear quite vocally that he would never stop until we were all dead.

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The Black Pearl
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeff C.:
quote:
Originally posted by umberhulk:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
quote:
This should have been the moment when Superman transcends the situation. When he outthinks his opponent, uses something besides brute strength, sacrifices himself if necessary, doesg something none of us (or Zod) expect, refuses to accept a no-win scenario. This should have been the moment to make all of us watching feel triumphant, inspired.
Superman is Captain Kirk?

I agree with some of your criticisms. But I'm not at all surprised. Dark is the buzzword in movie remakes these days. EVERYTHING has to be edgy and moody. It made sense with Batman because Batman was always the darkest of the big heroes. So even America's Boy Scout can't come out of today's movies without issues.

It seems no one wants a perfectly upstanding hero these days.

Captain America
By far the most uninteresting of the main heroes. And by main heroes, I mean those with their own movies.
I like the first movie up until after he gets his powers. Then it gets a little boring, and that movie has some of the goofiest cuts ever. But I like the comic the second one is being based on.
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Aros
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Here's another take:

http://geektyrant.com/news/2013/6/17/in-defense-of-man-of-steel-response-to-critic-and-fanboy-com.html?utm_source=geektyrant.com&utm_medium=featured

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TomDavidson
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quote:
When I look at Man of Steel, I see the Superman for the 21st century
Damn, that's depressing.
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Chris Bridges
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So many of the arguments I'm seeing in defense of the ending boil down to "The end justified the means, and I'm glad we finally got a Superman who realizes that." Not all, but enough to make me sad about an awful lot of people.
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Aros
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quote:
Originally posted by Chris Bridges:
So many of the arguments I'm seeing in defense of the ending boil down to "The end justified the means, and I'm glad we finally got a Superman who realizes that." Not all, but enough to make me sad about an awful lot of people.

I think it was pretty much the world versus one life. I'm fairly certain that any version of Superman would have made the same decision.
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Aros
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He did have a point about critics being too harsh, though. Was it really a worse movie than Spiderman 3 and X-Men: Last Stand? What about Ang Lee's Hulk or Superman Returns.

Seriously? It's within 10 percent of Daredevil on RottenTomatoes? This movie was definitely better than the final Dark Knight film.

[ June 18, 2013, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: Aros ]

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TomDavidson
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quote:
I'm fairly certain that any version of Superman would have made the same decision.
Not without first testing to see whether it was a false dichotomy.
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Aros
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You don't think he did that? He briefly had the upper hand against an equal, if not superior, opponent. He could have easily been killed himself, and the world with him.
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TomDavidson
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I don't think the film earned that decision, no. But, again, the decision to kill wasn't the problem for me; it was the decision to put him into a position where killing was arguably the right choice that was the problem. That's not what Superman's about.
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Aros
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That's stupid. He tried to save the guy's life first, sending him into the Phantom Zone. He briefly had the upper hand. The choices were death of humanity or death of Zod.

You might argue that it was a problem for the script writers to put in the dilemma. It's pretty similar to the climax from the Dark Knight. But I think it was a thematic decision. Krypton represented predetermination. Earth represented hope and choice. Zod was the total destructive manifestation of predetermined, mechanistic fatalism. Superman chose humanity.

Seriously, though. Writing aside, any iteration of Superman in those conditions would have made the same choice.

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T:man
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Superman killing Zod wasn't nearly as bad as everything about Pa Kent.
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BlackBlade
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I just felt like the ending with Zod was sort of forced. We had no reason to believe Superman couldn't just lift Zod up in the air, or I dunno, apply a basic takedown to redirect his gaze...
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Jeff C.
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Didn't Superman kill the bad guy in Superman: The Quest for Peace?
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Foust
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
To be fair, he "killed" Doomsday only because they punched each other for so long that they both died of exhaustion.

But, yes, Superman has -- in a few bad stories -- killed a handful of times before. In fact, you can often recognize a bad Superman story by whether or not he kills somebody.

The only truly great Superman story I'm aware of is All Star Superman.

There are a handful of other stories that are good, like Red Son. But for a front line character with 80 years of history, that's a terrible record. Compare with Batman, Fantastic Four and the X-Men.

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Jake
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I thought that Red Son was a great idea, but the execution of it did almost nothing for me.
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TomDavidson
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It's hard to make a great Superman story that's actually about Superman.
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AchillesHeel
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Am I the only one who was bothered by the his passive aggressive tantrum on the sexist guy's truck? If that is the Superman of the next century, I'm siding with Lex.

If anyone here is interested in a new Superman book that has some potential, Scott Snyder (the recently minted rock-star for his writing on Batman) and Jim Lee (google him, dude has done some amazing stuff) are doing a book called Superman: Unchained. They are only one issue into it but it looks good, and I really do not read Superman books.

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Geraine
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quote:
Originally posted by Foust:
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
To be fair, he "killed" Doomsday only because they punched each other for so long that they both died of exhaustion.

But, yes, Superman has -- in a few bad stories -- killed a handful of times before. In fact, you can often recognize a bad Superman story by whether or not he kills somebody.

The only truly great Superman story I'm aware of is All Star Superman.

There are a handful of other stories that are good, like Red Son. But for a front line character with 80 years of history, that's a terrible record. Compare with Batman, Fantastic Four and the X-Men.

I thought the "Death of Superman" arc was pretty good, though it came out when I was eleven years old and every comic was amazing.
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