quote:Originally posted by Sa'eed: The study points out a situation where men are surrounded by young women, and the effect only seems to be that it makes them more likely to get divorced. Perhaps the immodesty of young women, and their relentless sexual preening, has a similar cumulative effect on society at large
Or perhaps creepy guys seek out jobs where they get to oogle young women, so there's a higher than average percentage of men in such professions that will end up divorced. We don't have any idea about causality here, so jumping from "male teachers are slightly more likely than the average to be divorced" to "because the relentless sexual preening of their students makes them unhappy" is ridiculous.
It's quite misandrist to interpret the statistics that way, as if there are enough creeps out there (as to significantly impact divorce stats for the men in the teaching professions) who become teachers just to ogle young women. You're pretty much insulting male teachers.
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: I dunno, the 'no actual women have been hurt' thing took my mind to thinking 'women, animated or photographed, are being harmed etc etc.' with the virtue of artificial pornography being that no real women are being harmed.
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So I was driving home from taking my dogs to the groomers this morning, and passed a carwash. A place of business I mean, not a fund raiser or anything. Stopped at a light (a crappy, too-slow-on-Saturday-mornings-freakin'-light) I noticed that one of the employees was female. From a distance she appeared attractive, and was wearing some sort of sleeveless shirt and shorts, with a hat. Big surprise, right, Florida September morning on a sunny day and all that. I noted in my mind 'nice legs!'
But then I tried to imagine what it would be like if I were a man such as Sa'eed or a like-minded man, who would view such a thing as provocative 'sexual preening' that this woman should be criticized for not...validating or fulfilling or whatever to men who see her. I tried to imagine how it would be like to view her-from a distance, without knowing her, without hearing her voice or knowing any of her thoughts, without ever having even been to that car wash and knowing if they did a good job!-what it would be like to view her with antagonism, exclusively on the basis of her appearance to me personally.
I'm not sure I could complete the circuit in my mind. I don't think I did. I kept coming back to 'it's September in Florida, on a sunny day'. I could imagine her taking satisfaction in that clothing and looking attractive to the world at large, but I couldn't legitimately imagine (that is, imagine it and have it feel like my own thought) that she was engaging in 'sexual preening'.
I don't understand where you're coming from, Sa'eed. I can analyze other things you say and comfortably label you a misogynist, but this outlook of yours is alien to me. I suspect it's baffling to others too, when it's not offensive. You have done a poor job of making your case if after all this time I can't even imagine what it's like to feel that way.
There is a reason those car washes always use YOUNG WOMEN. And not young men.
It's to entice men to come nearer (by purchasing a car wash) so they can ogle the teenagers (they're often high schoolers) in a deniable fashion. That's the marketing strategy anyway. It's messed up.
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quote:Originally posted by Dogbreath: But you still haven't answered (and no, it's not unanswerable): why are you so afraid of women? What's so fundamentally awful about seeing their bodies? I *am* being serious with these questions - if you feel they're condescending, it's because you've put yourself in a position that is difficult to even address honestly without being condescending.
I'm not afraid of women. In fact, just today I asked one of them out for a date and she said yes. I'll report back how it goes.
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quote:There is a reason those car washes always use YOUNG WOMEN. And not young men.
It's to entice men to come nearer (by purchasing a car wash) so they can ogle the teenagers (they're often high schoolers) in a deniable fashion. That's the marketing strategy anyway. It's messed up.
Of the four people washing cars that I could see, exactly one was a woman. But it's a sign of how dishonest your style of discussion is-everything pivots back to your stance. One quarter women? They're lures. Not dressed in a provocative fashion? Doesn't matter, they're still lures. All women aren't sexually preening for men? You're a misandrist for wondering if perhaps the fault might lie with the much smaller, more powerful group that specifically chose to be there.
There isn't anything that would even potentially dissuade you from your misogyny. You'll accuse women of either lying of delusion if they say 'hey, that's not sexual preening'. Men who claim not to immediately render women into sexual objects in their brain are also either lying, or that's a sign that the only way they achieved that was by practicing sexual objectification of women through high doses of pornography.
In any event, asking one women out hardly demonstrates a lack of fear of women. But I'm curious: why do you expect anyone at all would trust what you say about yourself? Or do we need to revisit the thread in which Samprimary amply demonstrated how often and how thoroughly you lie?
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quote:Originally posted by Dogbreath: But you still haven't answered (and no, it's not unanswerable): why are you so afraid of women? What's so fundamentally awful about seeing their bodies? I *am* being serious with these questions - if you feel they're condescending, it's because you've put yourself in a position that is difficult to even address honestly without being condescending.
I'm not afraid of women. In fact, just today I asked one of them out for a date and she said yes. I'll report back how it goes.
Congratulations! I hope it goes well for you.
I don't know what kind of carwashes you go to, but I've always seen roughly the same number of guys and girls, except for the fundraiser ones on base, which are almost exclusively male.
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Please elucidate for everyone else your damning evidence that I "often" and "thoroughly" lie. Let the evidence speak for itself, instead of your mere allusion to it which makes it appear more than it is...
In any case, I've personally seen those car washes from a distance, which are notorious in pop culture for using young women as lures. It's tacky. It gets at the heart of the thread's subject. Good of you to bring it up.
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Huh. I wash my car all the time. There's an old Filippino woman sometimes, and then this stoner dude and his fat sister. I must be frequenting the wrong carwashes, because despite living all over the U.S. and driving everywhere I've *never* seen an all or mostly all female carwash. Heck, all the ones I've been to, the employees (male and female) wear polo shirts. I'm not even sure what "preening" is, exactly, but I think it's pretty hard to do in a baggy polo shirt.
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Huh. I wash my car all the time. There's an old Filippino woman sometimes, and then this stoner dude and his fat sister. I must be frequenting the wrong carwashes, because despite living all over the U.S. and driving everywhere I've *never* seen an all or mostly all female carwash. Heck, all the ones I've been to, the employees (male and female) wear polo shirts. I'm not even sure what "preening" is, exactly, but I think it's pretty hard to do in a baggy polo shirt.
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The idea I think you're talking past is that it goes both ways. If a man wears a tank top, goes shirtless, or probably even a figure hugging shirt, then she should be afforded the same grounds to claim "mentall assault". It's fine if you find it annoying. I'm not asking you not to. But the rules should be equal. Are you disagreeing with that?
I'm willing to conject that there is a female sexual assault victim somewhere in the world who finds the way a lot of men dress to be more annoying than your reaction to some women.
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quote:Originally posted by Sa'eed: The study points out a situation where men are surrounded by young women, and the effect only seems to be that it makes them more likely to get divorced. Perhaps the immodesty of young women, and their relentless sexual preening, has a similar cumulative effect on society at large
Or perhaps creepy guys seek out jobs where they get to oogle young women, so there's a higher than average percentage of men in such professions that will end up divorced. We don't have any idea about causality here, so jumping from "male teachers are slightly more likely than the average to be divorced" to "because the relentless sexual preening of their students makes them unhappy" is ridiculous.
It's quite misandrist to interpret the statistics that way, as if there are enough creeps out there (as to significantly impact divorce stats for the men in the teaching professions) who become teachers just to ogle young women. You're pretty much insulting male teachers.
No, I'm not. You're pretty much missing my point, which is not that this interpretation is the correct one, but that it's just as likely as yours. The statistics don't tell us what causes male teachers to divorce, only that they are more likely to be divorced. So making up an explanation that blames the students is just as insulting as making up one that blames the teachers.
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quote:I must be frequenting the wrong carwashes, because despite living all over the U.S. and driving everywhere I've *never* seen an all or mostly all female carwash.
The car washes around here are predominantly staffed by 16-25 year-old males and the uniform is baggy shirts.
I assume either Sa'eed is experiencing a carwash gender ratio outlier in his part of the world or he is projecting a sexy carwash scene from a movie he once saw into reality.
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quote:Please elucidate for everyone else your damning evidence that I "often" and "thoroughly" lie. Let the evidence speak for itself, instead of your mere allusion to it which makes it appear more than it is...
I'm wondering just how far you'll commit to this. I'm referring to your many screen names over the past, your multiple past posts in which you claim not to be a returning poster, culminating in Sa'eed, where you denied again being other posters until you were caught out, along with all of the other deception and bad behavior wrapped up with it. I know you know the big thread I'm talking about. We can revisit it if you'd like.
quote:In any case, I've personally seen those car washes from a distance, which are notorious in pop culture for using young women as lures. It's tacky. It gets at the heart of the thread's subject. Good of you to bring it up.
'Those' car washes? Sheesh. Did you miss or simply ignore the part where I pointed out the observed ratio of women to men? Does your outlook just get to ignore the part where I mentioned the one woman I saw wasn't wearing anything provocative at all?
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quote:The idea I think you're talking past is that it goes both ways. If a man wears a tank top, goes shirtless, or probably even a figure hugging shirt, then she should be afforded the same grounds to claim "mentall assault". It's fine if you find it annoying. I'm not asking you not to. But the rules should be equal. Are you disagreeing with that?
Of course he is. This is the guy who referenced Saudi Arabia as a culture from which we could learn a lot with respect to their attitude towards women.
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quote:Please elucidate for everyone else your damning evidence that I "often" and "thoroughly" lie. Let the evidence speak for itself, instead of your mere allusion to it which makes it appear more than it is...
I'm wondering just how far you'll commit to this. I'm referring to your many screen names over the past
Vague. List them. Also: I've owned up to every one.
quote: culminating in Sa'eed, where you denied again being other posters until you were caught out, along with all of the other deception and bad behavior wrapped up with it.
Why the reluctance to link to your evidence for your claims that I tell "thorough" lies "often"? I mean I'm sure you have your brilliant case for your accusations that aren't totally small and petty...
quote: 'Those' car washes? Sheesh. Did you miss or simply ignore the part where I pointed out the observed ratio of women to men? Does your outlook just get to ignore the part where I mentioned the one woman I saw wasn't wearing anything provocative at all?
I was speaking about my observations.
Posts: 668 | Registered: Aug 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Sa'eed: The study points out a situation where men are surrounded by young women, and the effect only seems to be that it makes them more likely to get divorced. Perhaps the immodesty of young women, and their relentless sexual preening, has a similar cumulative effect on society at large
Or perhaps creepy guys seek out jobs where they get to oogle young women, so there's a higher than average percentage of men in such professions that will end up divorced. We don't have any idea about causality here, so jumping from "male teachers are slightly more likely than the average to be divorced" to "because the relentless sexual preening of their students makes them unhappy" is ridiculous.
It's quite misandrist to interpret the statistics that way, as if there are enough creeps out there (as to significantly impact divorce stats for the men in the teaching professions) who become teachers just to ogle young women. You're pretty much insulting male teachers.
No, I'm not. You're pretty much missing my point, which is not that this interpretation is the correct one, but that it's just as likely as yours. The statistics don't tell us what causes male teachers to divorce, only that they are more likely to be divorced. So making up an explanation that blames the students is just as insulting as making up one that blames the teachers.
I've emailed those researchers with your claims about how they totally discounted other likely possibilities such as many creepy and calculating men becoming teachers just to ogle young women and then divorcing their wives. We'll see how they respond.
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quote:Vague. List them. Also: I've owned up to every one.
No you didn't. It was dragged out of you, after repeated denials.
quote:Why the reluctance to link to your evidence for your claims that I tell "thorough" lies "often"? I mean I'm sure you have your brilliant case for your accusations that aren't totally small and petty...
That's not what you were doing, and it's not what you do in discussions about women either. In those discussions, your own observations are universal-as was the case here. You've never observed the car wash I was speaking of unless I'm mistaken, yet your own 'observations' were sufficient for you to say that you've been to 'those' car washes and knew what was going on.
quote:I've emailed those researchers with your claims about how they totally discounted other likely possibilities such as many creepy and calculating men becoming teachers just to ogle young women and then divorcing their wives. We'll see how they respond.
What a blunt radical restatement of her objection. And yes, we'll see how they respond, these 'researchers'.
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quote:Originally posted by Dogbreath: Huh. I wash my car all the time. There's an old Filippino woman sometimes, and then this stoner dude and his fat sister. I must be frequenting the wrong carwashes, because despite living all over the U.S. and driving everywhere I've *never* seen an all or mostly all female carwash. Heck, all the ones I've been to, the employees (male and female) wear polo shirts. I'm not even sure what "preening" is, exactly, but I think it's pretty hard to do in a baggy polo shirt.
Come to Las Vegas in August and September. You will see numerous car washes with high school cheerleading teams trying to raise money. They are almost always wearing very short shorts, which admittedly is understandable when it is 105 degrees outside.
There is also a car wash here in town that has.... russian women... in bikinis... That wash your car.
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That's Samp cataloging my other threads/posts. It doesn't substantiate your accusations about me lying "thoroughly" and "often." Often. OFTEN. Means it should be easy for you to come up with with just more than one instance of my lies...
quote: That's not what you were doing, and it's not what you do in discussions about women either. In those discussions, your own observations are universal-as was the case here. You've never observed the car wash I was speaking of unless I'm mistaken, yet your own 'observations' were sufficient for you to say that you've been to 'those' car washes and knew what was going on.
I've seen plenty of them to notice a pattern. I'm sorry I privilege my observations over yours.
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Of course. They also added that they've been reading hatrack for a long time and were not so surprised by Rakeesh being so petty and small.
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I honestly don't know if you're making a joke or are legitimately having a psychotic break, but either way this is getting way out of hand.
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I hate to defend Sa'eed in any way but there is a difference between a commercial car wash which is usually mostly guys and the typical high school fundraiser car wash that is extremely common and almost always features skimpily clad teenage girls, at least in warmer climates. Maybe some parts of the country don't do those but in my travels throughout most of the southeast U.S., they are everywhere.
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I think Sa'eed is majorly wrong (and dkw's observation about correlation/causation was a good one, but appears to have gone over his head).
But re: his last few posts I think it's clear he's just screwing around having a laugh. Even people with woefully wrong attitudes on genetic determinism and an inability to distinguish correlation from causation can crack a joke.
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Wingracer: Do they also feature skimpily clad teenage guys? And do you think said girls are dressing that way to use their bodies to pump sales, or just because that's how teenage girls dress on hot days? Not that it really matters, anyway. It's pretty tangential. But Rakeesh was clearly describing an actual carwash establishment, not a fundraiser.
Dan: Yeah, most likely. We've had enough legitimately crazy people here as of late that I'm not always sure.
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quote:Originally posted by Dogbreath: Wingracer: Do they also feature skimpily clad teenage guys? And do you think said girls are dressing that way to use their bodies to pump sales, or just because that's how teenage girls dress on hot days? Not that it really matters, anyway. It's pretty tangential. But Rakeesh was clearly describing an actual carwash establishment, not a fundraiser.
1. One or two at most. 2. Probably both.
As for Rakeesh, yes but Sa'eed was not. Rakeesh was coming off as if saying carwashes of any kind featuring skimpily dressed young girls is unheard of which is just not true. Hell, not far from me is a commercial carwash featuring strippers, but at least they are not teenagers.
As for the rest, I agree completely that none of this really serves to prove any of Sa'eed's wild claims, just want to set the facts straight.
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quote:Originally posted by Dan_Frank: I think Sa'eed is majorly wrong (and dkw's observation about correlation/causation was a good one, but appears to have gone over his head).
But re: his last few posts I think it's clear he's just screwing around having a laugh. Even people with woefully wrong attitudes on genetic determinism and an inability to distinguish correlation from causation can crack a joke.
I sense that this thread is losing steam, so I'm going to let your insults about me not understanding that correlation isn't causation go.
Posts: 668 | Registered: Aug 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Dogbreath: But you still haven't answered (and no, it's not unanswerable): why are you so afraid of women? What's so fundamentally awful about seeing their bodies? I *am* being serious with these questions - if you feel they're condescending, it's because you've put yourself in a position that is difficult to even address honestly without being condescending.
I'm not afraid of women. In fact, just today I asked one of them out for a date and she said yes. I'll report back how it goes.
Update: She cancelled on me via text message. Posts: 668 | Registered: Aug 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Dogbreath: Wingracer: Do they also feature skimpily clad teenage guys? And do you think said girls are dressing that way to use their bodies to pump sales, or just because that's how teenage girls dress on hot days? Not that it really matters, anyway. It's pretty tangential. But Rakeesh was clearly describing an actual carwash establishment, not a fundraiser.
1. One or two at most. 2. Probably both.
As for Rakeesh, yes but Sa'eed was not. Rakeesh was coming off as if saying carwashes of any kind featuring skimpily dressed young girls is unheard of which is just not true. Hell, not far from me is a commercial carwash featuring strippers, but at least they are not teenagers.
As for the rest, I agree completely that none of this really serves to prove any of Sa'eed's wild claims, just want to set the facts straight.
I'm not sure what I said to indicate I thought car washes that used sex to sell stuff were unheard of. I was speaking of one particular car wash, and while Sa'eed (eventually, sort of) clarified he was talking specifically about certain kinds of car washes, it was clear I wasn't-but that's what he was responding to. In fact he even spoke as though the car wash I saw, which he never did, must necessarily be one of 'those' car washes.
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So was she being a deceitful woman, and never meant jt? Perhaps some alpha came along and scooped up the portion of 'female erotic capital' she possessed? Did her father take lessons from Saudis and teach her 'modesty'?
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quote:Originally posted by Dan_Frank: I think Sa'eed is majorly wrong (and dkw's observation about correlation/causation was a good one, but appears to have gone over his head).
But re: his last few posts I think it's clear he's just screwing around having a laugh. Even people with woefully wrong attitudes on genetic determinism and an inability to distinguish correlation from causation can crack a joke.
I sense that this thread is losing steam, so I'm going to let your insults about me not understanding that correlation isn't causation go.
If it makes you feel any better I think most people would do the same. Everyone admits correlation isn't causation until there's a correlation they really want to use to prove something they care about.
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quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: So was she being a deceitful woman, and never meant jt? Perhaps some alpha came along and scooped up the portion of 'female erotic capital' she possessed? Did her father take lessons from Saudis and teach her 'modesty'?
I acknowledge that you read my last post and typed a response.
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quote:Originally posted by Sa'eed: Update: She cancelled on me via text message.
I'm sorry, that's a really shitty (but also unfortunately common) way to get let down. If it makes you feel any better, it's happened to me too, and just about every guy I know. And it's more considerate (and less humiliating) than standing you up.
If you want my advice (I realize it's unsolicited): just forget about her and ask a different women. Keep trying, keep going on dates, figure out what works and what is a turnoff, adjust your behavior, and try some more. Don't get angry or resentful over rejection, never act as if a woman owes you something, and you'll be just fine.
And just talk to them! I mean, seriously, they're just people, same as you. You don't need to try and be a pickup artist or manipulate or analyze them. You can just talk to women, engage them in conversation, ask them questions, and then listen to and respect their answers. You'd be surprised by how well this works.
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