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Author Topic: old man blogs at cloud
GaalDornick
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Hey BB, any chance you'd be willing to ask OSC to stop by here and discuss and clarify some of the things he says in his columns? Kind of like Reddit's AMA.
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JanitorBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by GaalDornick:
Hey BB, any chance you'd be willing to ask OSC to stop by here and discuss and clarify some of the things he says in his columns? Kind of like Reddit's AMA.

Maybe.

But I wouldn't expect it to go very well, there's so much frustration and anger that inhibit meaningful communication.

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zlogdanbr
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quote:
Originally posted by JanitorBlade:
quote:
Originally posted by GaalDornick:
Hey BB, any chance you'd be willing to ask OSC to stop by here and discuss and clarify some of the things he says in his columns? Kind of like Reddit's AMA.

Maybe.

But I wouldn't expect it to go very well, there's so much frustration and anger that inhibit meaningful communication.

This would be really excellent. Specially for OSC to clarify and defend himself.

--
ps
I have been a member of Michael Moorcock's forum for around 4 years. Not just the people there are the finest people I ever met on any forum, but also Michael Moorcock very often posts there.

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JanitorBlade
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There's a couple of issues.

1: There's a very long history of Mr. Card feeling (rightly or wrongly) increasingly attacked here. Even though he does not remark, Mrs. Card has always actively followed the goings on here. At this point it's very similar to a dysfunctional relationship. If the community requested it, I believe Mr. Card would acquiesce to coming. He cares about this place.

But I would anticipate that were a dialogue opened up it would revert to the same dynamic that resulted in his stepping back in the first place, unless some major efforts were made to stop that from happening.

2: The topics that people would probably want to discuss are largely going to be things we've hashed out here many times, and they are very tense ones. Sure there would be some lighthearted or neutral ones (What have you eaten that you can recommend lately?) by it would be mostly this most recent kerfuffle about transgendered bathrooms, gay marriage, leftaliban, etc.

I, as much as anybody else would love to bring Mr. Card back as a regular poster or even just doing the occasional AMA.

But we need to figure out some ways to ensure that's a positive experience and not a negative one.

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zlogdanbr
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Hey Janitor from my part I will not attack OSC, actually I am more on his side than any other thing.

I believe the discussion taken here will eventually lead most people to understand OSC well. He is NOT a mean person, not a bigot, not a gay hater, etc. He is a very decent and intelligent person. And he happens to be one of the greatest sci fi authors of our time.

People willing to discuss these issues need to understand that before starting the debate.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
People willing to discuss these issues need to understand that before starting the debate.
Heh.
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Rakeesh
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I'll say it up front: it's insulting to behave as though the onus for civility is on one side here. Setting aside the questions of technicality and rudeness here versus rudeness elsewhere, we have *read* his columns. Card is not some wilting victim. Let him, or anyone speaking for him, offer as well as ask for assurances of civility if we're going to do that.
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GaalDornick
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BB didn't suggest that the onus is on one side. Right now, he's talking to us. He didn't say OSC doesn't have a responsibility to be civil as well.
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JanitorBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by GaalDornick:
BB didn't suggest that the onus is on one side. Right now, he's talking to us. He didn't say OSC doesn't have a responsibility to be civil as well.

Yep.
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zlogdanbr
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
People willing to discuss these issues need to understand that before starting the debate.
Heh.
LOL, I realized later that this statement is out of context and completely invalidates the idea of debating heheheh What I meant is well let's us be polite with each other and eventually OSC opinions will be clarified.
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kmbboots
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What do you think is unclear?
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zlogdanbr
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My statement

"People willing to discuss these issues need to understand that before starting the debate."

just after
"I believe the discussion taken here will eventually lead most people to understand OSC well. He is NOT a mean person, not a bigot, not a gay hater, etc. He is a very decent and intelligent person. And he happens to be one of the greatest sci fi authors of our time."

implies that to start the debate you need to agree with my point or OSC points.

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kmbboots
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If we agreed why would we debate?

What about OSC's opinions do you think is unclear?

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zlogdanbr
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Same old ones.
Have you read

http://www.hatrack.com/osc/reviews/everything/2016-04-28.shtml

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TomDavidson
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What needs clarification in that essay?
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Rakeesh
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Those pesky LGBT people with their privileged class status.
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zlogdanbr
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Ok, from my part I give up.
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Rakeesh
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Look zlog, I can appreciate your desire to defend Card. For my part I once felt and behaved in much the similar ways, though not many here will remember as it's been many years. But I'm afraid that the truth is that these disagreements and impressions aren't just a matter of misunderstanding or poor communication (whether on the part of Card or those reading his words).

He's made his opinions on 'the Left' in this country (which isn't the left in Brazil, I should point out), on Democrats, on opponents of George W Bush, on supporters of Obama, on supporters of LGBT rights, all very clear. And that opinion is uniformly hostile, contemptuous, and personally insulting and has been for years.

As a thought exercise I can imagine it's possible he's entirely correct about all of it. But even if that were true, it still wouldn't be a situation wherein a more clear explanation could be offered and suddenly the environment isn't as antagonistic.

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GaalDornick
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I thought a dialogue where the left here could explain to OSC the reasoning behind our views and refute some of the claims made in columns, and OSC being able to defend himself against the criticism levelled against him here would be worthwhile. It seems like you don't agree.
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kmbboots
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Not sure who you are asking but I can't imagine what OSC would have to gain. He certainly doesn't need to justify himself to us and we aren't likely to change his mind.

What do you imagine he could say that would "clarify" his views into something not bigoted and what do you imagine that we could say that would change those views?

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GaalDornick
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I don't expect any stances on issues to be changed, but maybe respect for each other's views is a possibility.
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kmbboots
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Okay. What do you imagine could be said that would make his view worthy of respect? Or make him respect ours?

And, again, he doesn't really need us to respect his views. Why would he want to spend time (better spent on writing or his family) on fending off arguments from a bunch of fans?

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NobleHunter
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"Demosthenes" might do it.
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kmbboots
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If we want to know his views, all we have to do is read his columns. He has put them out there for us.
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GaalDornick
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
Okay. What do you imagine could be said that would make his view worthy of respect? Or make him respect ours?

That there are rational reasons for having leftist views.

quote:

And, again, he doesn't really need us to respect his views. Why would he want to spend time (better spent on writing or his family) on fending off arguments from a bunch of fans?

He writes columns. He clearly doesn't mind spending time discussing political and social issues. What does being fans have to do with it? I'm not asking for him to come here and answer questions about his books.

What's your issue with the idea? Do you prefer only having discussions in echo chambers?

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kmbboots
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I'm not against the idea; I just don't think it is going to happen.
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GaalDornick
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Yeah, that doesn't jibe with the fact that the only two things we've heard from JB is a "maybe" and his belief that Card would agree, while only asking that we agree to discuss respectfully, and you repeatedly insisting there is no point.
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kmbboots
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If it does, I will be very happy for you and very surprised.
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TomDavidson
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I cannot imagine, having spoken with several of the Cards on this topic, that the issue is that OSC genuinely needs to be reminded/persuaded that liberals are capable of rational thought, or that this hypothetical epiphany would cause him to begin openly according more respect to opinions he does not share.
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Stone_Wolf_
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This is the worst idea EVER. [Angst]

The only thing more entrenched & immobile than OSC & the posters here was WWI France.

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Rakeesh
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To clarify, my earlier post was addressed to zlog and I forgot to preface if that way. JB is simply doing his job when he sets a condition like civility. Though I will point out that neither he nor anyone else actually has the means to make that condition stick for OSC, in the scenario where he discussed things here and violated it.

--------

quote:
I thought a dialogue where the left here could explain to OSC the reasoning behind our views and refute some of the claims made in columns, and OSC being able to defend himself against the criticism levelled against him here would be worthwhile. It seems like you don't agree.
Well, it's worth pointing out that there aren't any secret liberal (or even Leftaliban) arguments or cases to make here that Card hasn't been exposed to. I suppose that is really what I object to, and it's simply a question of tone. The situation is not one of equivalent hostility and rudeness, where both sides should stand down equally and start over. Card has been routinely hostile and libelous (I don't mean anything actionable, of course) in his writing towards LGBT and liberal folks in his columns dealing with politics. And also Pixar films from time to time.

I can say all of that in this thread because Card has made it abundantly clear that he believes as bad or worse of people who think like I do on these subjects. But if for the purposes of an artificially civil, diplomacy style setting for discussion it's a condition that those sorts of things not be mentioned or hinted at in any hypothetical conversation, I really am fine with it. With letting JB be the arbiter of whether such conditions are met, as well.

But none of that means that this state of affairs is likely to be based in an honest misunderstanding from one side or another, is what I'm saying.

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Samprimary
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I would pay money to just have a period of time where OSC and Tom Davidson must respond to a specific number of each other's questions and posts.

partly because Tom would pepper him with exactly the right questions and exactly the right critiques of his views

and partly because Tom would drive OSC completely insane. he would literally be shaking at his computer, mind clouded with toothgrinding hate, responding to Tom.

there would be no finer adkjflhasdflkjhaf in the world

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TomDavidson
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I would pay money to have that not happen.
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Samprimary
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oh come on i'd even hire someone from the world wrestling federation to do play-by-play announcing and I'd have a t-shirt printed up and everything and be in kayfabe the whole time
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Samprimary
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that said, i'll take $50 to call the whole thing off
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Stone_Wolf_
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...from each poster
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zlogdanbr
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The statements made by OSC in regard to the left generally deal with a "so-called" veiled Communist plain that aims to denature Western Catholic Jewish culture. These theories seem to be founded on the criticism on the theoretical works of Antonio Gramsci, which is a huge influence on the left here in Brazil and Latin America.

I honestly have not read any specific work of Gramsci, I have been simply enlightened by right wing intellectuals that have studied his work and despite how biased these claims might be, it seems that Gramsci actually supposedly proposes that in order to effectively have the paradigm change aimed by Communist revolutionists, it is necessary to break up and demolish the current Western Cultural Hegemony by inciting changes in the way society sees and accepts sexuality, marriage, acceptance of criminal behavior or religion norms. It is also part of the deal to foment cultural and social vilification of the western male past activities.

Gramsci also allegedly seems to recommend that alliances with less radical left activism, like Fabian socialism, are made in order to catapult the changes and the actual revolution.

As I said, I am only repeating what I read from people like Olavo De Carvalho ( who Brazil's most respected right wing philosopher and who have read all works of Antonio Gramsci ) and Reinaldo De Carvalho, center-right Brazilian columnist.

Thus, if a specific Left activist claims to be dumbfounded by Antonio Gramsci ideals seems acceptable to assume that this specific activist in fact endorses gay marriage, defensive actions and human rights for killers or atheism in order to end up with the current status quo rather than thinking on the civil rights.

I reiterate that I have chosen not to accuse the American left in these terms because of respect to the Left people here at this forum- who seem not to endorse the obtuse thinking of the Latin American left - and because I don't live there and so it'd be even more obtuse of my part trying to assume things for real without actually living them.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
I honestly have not read any specific work of Gramsci, I have been simply enlightened by right wing intellectuals that have studied his work...
In general, it is never a good idea to speak with authority about someone based purely on the words of his political enemies.
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Rakeesh
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I can't remark knowledgably about Central or South American politics of any stripe, really, much less drill down to what particular writers and philosophers have to say.

What I *can* say is that I think it's been quite some time since Card has even mentioned communism in one of his columns, and that if his 'spirited criticism' of the left has anything to do with communism, he's done a poor job of communicating that.

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Samprimary
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yeah no kidding

i mean for all my frothing i try first and foremost to not do that ever, because when you're as frothy as me it is an easy path into epistemic closure

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zlogdanbr
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:

What I *can* say is that I think it's been quite some time since Card has even mentioned communism in one of his columns, and that if his 'spirited criticism' of the left has anything to do with communism, he's done a poor job of communicating that.

Yes but he mentions the "the left", does not he ?
Gramsci says that it is a part of the revolutionary process to make alliances with moderate leftists or non communist left.

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zlogdanbr
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
I honestly have not read any specific work of Gramsci, I have been simply enlightened by right wing intellectuals that have studied his work...
In general, it is never a good idea to speak with authority about someone based purely on the words of his political enemies.
Yes I agree, but as I remarked ( I am not a political scientist or a scholar.), I am no authority in anything ( except in my field of work of course ), I am just interested in the type of left that has been exemplified as evil and criticized by OSC and that very much resonates to the criticism I have read about the left.
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Stone_Wolf_
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Feel free to ignore Tom's little jabs...we all pretty much do.
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kmbboots
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So you do think it is a good idea to speak with authority about someone based purely on the words of his political enemies?

I am not sure that you get to speak for "we all" without defining that more narrowly.

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zlogdanbr
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Depends, see, Olavo de Carvalho, although a rigid opponent of communism, happens to be one the greatest authorities in the topic here in Brazil.
You can also take my word - and feel free to pass it forward - on Java or windows, they both are awful ;-)

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Rakeesh
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Zlog,

He does, but-and of course this is just my take on it from having read his columns with an admittedly jaundiced eye-'the left' hasn't been about economics for Card for quite a few years. It's almost always, as in I cannot recall a contrary example, about one of two things: criticism of Bush/War on Terror, or the so-called culture wars in the United States. Come to think of it he might have had *some* criticism of Obamacare on the lines of economics, but it is far, far from a majority or even a significant minority of his hostility to the left.

----

I can't say I haven't been frustrated with Tom Davidson before, but hopefully it wasn't often for very relevant and useful remarks such as that one? And yeah, we all speak for ourselves, I believe.

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Rakeesh
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Unfortunately I'm basically always going to be lost when talking about Brazilian politics. I know only the most rudimentary history, I don't speak Portuguese, in fact I'm not even certain that is the language spoken primarily in Brazil without checking. I don't even have any Brazilian friends or acquaintances, to my knowledge. Card himself probably knows a fair bit, if I'm not mistaken, since he's traveled extensively in Brazil or at least South America?

Anyway, having said all of that an enemy of a given person or ideology being a trustworthy messenger for how their enemy thinks or feels is uncommon, at least in my experience. Of course it's possible that messenger might be *right* when he discusses the hidden or unconscious motives of their enemy, or when she lists the states beliefs of that enemy. In specific instances, anyway.

For example, sticking with Card to keep it topical, for the sake of argument he might be right: I might secretly long to bring religious conservatives specifically and religious people in general under the yoke of an oppressive regime of political correctness. Maybe I do secretly long for the humbling of America and the triumph of our enemies. Perhaps it's true that a man such as myself doesn't really believe in the ideals I claim to, but actually cling to it out of a sense of timidity and toadying to the Leftaliban or something.

He could be right about all of that, but of course if you actually asked me about it I would give very different answers about my reasons for supporting or opposing a given law or custom. Maybe I'm lying or self deluded when I do give different answers, and Card was right about a man like me all along, but typically in a serious discussion of politics, mind-reading by the most strident opposition is a poor standard of evidence.

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theamazeeaz
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quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
Unfortunately I'm basically always going to be lost when talking about Brazilian politics. I know only the most rudimentary history, I don't speak Portuguese, in fact I'm not even certain that is the language spoken primarily in Brazil without checking. I don't even have any Brazilian friends or acquaintances, to my knowledge. Card himself probably knows a fair bit, if I'm not mistaken, since he's traveled extensively in Brazil or at least South America?

Have you not read Speaker for the Dead? Lusitania is a Brazillian colony and they speak Portuguese. And yes, Card did his mission there (so the choice of country to make the colonists was not random).
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Rakeesh
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Ah, that's probably the association I had for it. I think I also remember something from Lovelock as well? Can't say for sure, it's been many years since I read either. Might be due for a reread.
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Stone_Wolf_
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/me is sad Lovelock will never be finished.
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