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Author Topic: Should Justin Bieber Be Deported?
BlackBlade
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My initial response was, "Don't really care." But after reading this I'm starting to warm to the idea.

Dude was racing drunk and under the influence of drugs. If he was a guest in my house I'd ask him to leave.

[ January 30, 2014, 08:29 PM: Message edited by: BlackBlade ]

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Wingracer
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I really don't care about him one way or another but from some reports I have heard (you can't miss them) it sounds like this is getting blown out of proportion.

1. He blew a .011. That is not drunk. In fact, already known to be inaccurate breathalyzers are practically useless at such low levels.

2. He wasn't racing. Both cars were rentals, both had GPS trackers and both show neither driver went more than 4 mph over the speed limit all night.

That being said, it does sound like he was under the influence of pot and Zanax at the time. Still, calling it a drunken drag race seems quite inaccurate.

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Lyrhawn
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I kind of don't care, but I also think it's bizarre that he gets to stay while we're aggressively deporting tax payers who just want to make money picking avocados.
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stilesbn
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
I kind of don't care, but I also think it's bizarre that he gets to stay while we're aggressively deporting tax payers who just want to make money picking avocados.

Are you under the impression that JB doesn't pay taxes?
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AchillesHeel
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Well, I'm not saying he doesn't pay taxes, but I would wager that he doesn't know how.
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Mucus
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Shouldn't it be fairly automatic? If the accusations and charges proceed to a conviction, I would have assumed that the visa would be revoked and he would be refused entry the next time he crosses back into the United States.
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Geraine
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quote:
Originally posted by Wingracer:
I really don't care about him one way or another but from some reports I have heard (you can't miss them) it sounds like this is getting blown out of proportion.

1. He blew a .011. That is not drunk. In fact, already known to be inaccurate breathalyzers are practically useless at such low levels.

2. He wasn't racing. Both cars were rentals, both had GPS trackers and both show neither driver went more than 4 mph over the speed limit all night.

That being said, it does sound like he was under the influence of pot and Zanax at the time. Still, calling it a drunken drag race seems quite inaccurate.

For an underage drinker, .011 is still against the law. It doesn't matter if he blew a .011 or a .20, it is considered a DUI if you are under the legal drinking age.
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Orincoro
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Also from personal experience, A few beers when I was 19 was a lot more dangerous than a few beers at 25. After years of experience, you don't tend to get in that situation that's so typical of your teens and early twenties, not understanding the effects alcohol is having on your thinking and judgement. It's easy for me to say now what I can and can't reasonably do while drinking. At 19 that was impossible.
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theamazeeaz
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Justin Bieber has done a lot more than what he was arrested for, just not in the USA. Prostitutes, vandalism, animal abuse and public outbursts, seedy gossip site have said he's done it all. (seriously, look it up)

I like the idea of deporting him, because he's a rich, white dude from Canada who thinks he is above the law.

My understanding is that the INS can do pretty much whatever it wants and really really enjoys the fact that immigrants are at their mercy (I've heard stories). Despite what it says, the US is pretty prejudiced against people from certain countries, but great to others.

Wasn't there some German businessman who didn't have his papers in order who got arrested and the politicians basically had to admit the wrote the law for Mexicans? If not having your docs is bad, then it applies for everyone.

If you a white thug, people think you are young and dumb. If you a black thug, it's cool if Zimmerman shoots you. You were scary.

I am of the firm belief that young people know *exactly* what alcohol does to their judgement. Or at least they were told and could repeat it back to you, just like every child in American knows that cigarettes are addictive and cause lung cancer. Somehow, people still smoke, and I'm sure no one who smokes doesn't know that. But since drinking is fun, they just willfully choose to ignore it until it actually hurts them enough that they decide to listen. After all, if doing dangerous things under the influence might hurt you 5% of the time, that's a lot, but you can fool around pretty often before something happens to you or someone you know. There are plenty of young people who get through their teen years, drink, but do not pull this kind of stuff, nor do they endanger other people, because they have sufficient imagination to realize that bad things can apply to them. They were smart children who will become smart adults. The others have learned the hard way about some things and have moved on, but there are new and different things to screw up in their 30s and 40s.

Bieber as a wee young lad, bragged about how Christian he was. If this religion really does teach morality, surely avoiding such things were part of his teachings. But no, the kid hasn't had anyone say no to him in a very long time. He's thinks that actions don't have consequences, not because he's a dumb 19 year old lacking in imagination with an "undeveloped brain", it's because he's learned from experience that if you have enough money, actions don't have consequences.

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scifibum
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Would deporting him increase or decrease the chances of randomly encountering stories and pictures of him?
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GaalDornick
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quote:
My understanding is that the INS can do pretty much whatever it wants and really really enjoys the fact that immigrants are at their mercy (I've heard stories).
That's a pretty egregious allegation to make based off anecdotal evidence.

quote:
If you a white thug, people think you are young and dumb. If you a black thug, it's cool if Zimmerman shoots you. You were scary.
I bet there would be a lot less protests if Justin Bieber got shot then Trayvon Martin.

quote:
I am of the firm belief that young people know *exactly* what alcohol does to their judgement
quote:
There are plenty of young people who get through their teen years, drink, but do not pull this kind of stuff, nor do they endanger other people
What kind of stuff are you referring to? As was pointed out, he had a .011 BAC and was driving 27 mph. I don't think that qualifies as endangering other people.
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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by stilesbn:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyrhawn:
I kind of don't care, but I also think it's bizarre that he gets to stay while we're aggressively deporting tax payers who just want to make money picking avocados.

Are you under the impression that JB doesn't pay taxes?
I know he does, he's just a waste of space and flagrantly disregards the laws of the land he's a guest in.

To say nothing of being a poisonous lesion upon our media.

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theamazeeaz
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quote:
Originally posted by GaalDornick:

quote:
If you a white thug, people think you are young and dumb. If you a black thug, it's cool if Zimmerman shoots you. You were scary.
I bet there would be a lot less protests if Justin Bieber got shot then Trayvon Martin.


It's also a lot likelier the person who does it will be 1. arrested before there's a public outcry over the fact that a kid got shot and no charges were filed, even weeks later 2. it's a lot less likely whomever's doing it will get off.
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theamazeeaz
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quote:
Originally posted by GaalDornick:

quote:
I am of the firm belief that young people know *exactly* what alcohol does to their judgement
quote:
There are plenty of young people who get through their teen years, drink, but do not pull this kind of stuff, nor do they endanger other people
What kind of stuff are you referring to? As was pointed out, he had a .011 BAC and was driving 27 mph. I don't think that qualifies as endangering other people. [/QB]
Orincoro's post above mine.
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Wingracer
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quote:
Originally posted by Geraine:
[QUOTE]For an underage drinker, .011 is still against the law. It doesn't matter if he blew a .011 or a .20, it is considered a DUI if you are under the legal drinking age.

Not in Florida, it's .02. Breathalyzers are very inaccurate at those low levels anyway. .011 could also be nothing.
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GaalDornick
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quote:
Originally posted by theamazeeaz:
quote:
Originally posted by GaalDornick:

quote:
I am of the firm belief that young people know *exactly* what alcohol does to their judgement
quote:
There are plenty of young people who get through their teen years, drink, but do not pull this kind of stuff, nor do they endanger other people
What kind of stuff are you referring to? As was pointed out, he had a .011 BAC and was driving 27 mph. I don't think that qualifies as endangering other people.

Orincoro's post above mine. [/QB]
This:
quote:
It's easy for me to say now what I can and can't reasonably do while drinking. At 19 that was impossible.
Seems to contradict this:

quote:
I am of the firm belief that young people know *exactly* what alcohol does to their judgement.
And pretty much that entire paragraph. I don't understand why you're referencing his post.
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tertiaryadjunct
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quote:
Originally posted by GaalDornick:
quote:
My understanding is that the INS can do pretty much whatever it wants and really really enjoys the fact that immigrants are at their mercy (I've heard stories).
That's a pretty egregious allegation to make based off anecdotal evidence.
You know what is reputation? Is people talking, is gossip...

http://www.thenation.com/article/americas-secret-ice-castles

Now for you, ICE reputation is not from gossip. You see this man? Ehh, he does not look white enough. I show you what ICE do with him, and now for you ICE reputation is fact. Is solid.

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theamazeeaz
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quote:
Originally posted by GaalDornick:
quote:
Originally posted by theamazeeaz:
quote:
Originally posted by GaalDornick:

quote:
I am of the firm belief that young people know *exactly* what alcohol does to their judgement
quote:
There are plenty of young people who get through their teen years, drink, but do not pull this kind of stuff, nor do they endanger other people
What kind of stuff are you referring to? As was pointed out, he had a .011 BAC and was driving 27 mph. I don't think that qualifies as endangering other people.

Orincoro's post above mine.

This:
quote:
It's easy for me to say now what I can and can't reasonably do while drinking. At 19 that was impossible.
Seems to contradict this:

quote:
I am of the firm belief that young people know *exactly* what alcohol does to their judgement.
And pretty much that entire paragraph. I don't understand why you're referencing his post. [/QB]
Of course I'm contradicting what he's saying! I'm disagreeing! Orincoro's defending Bieber by stating that young people can't understand what they are doing, because their brains aren't formed and that's why young people drink can be especially dangerous.

I'm stating that young people have ample, repeated education about the dangers of alcohol, and if they haven't seen drunk people in person, they've seen them on TV and probably can guess that people who drink become impaired. Thus, I think Bieber should be held responsible for any offenses he has committed, and not written off due to his age. He's not a minor.

Let's try another analogy. Ever read Harry Potter 5? There's a scene where Harry journeys into Snape's memory and sees his father and his friend Sirius bully Snape when they were all 15. Upset, he returns to his time and confronts the now-grown Sirius about it, who says that 15 year olds are idiots. Harry replies that HE is 15, knows that kind of behavior is wrong and does not think that being 15 is an appropriate excuse for bullying.

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Samprimary
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if justin bieber had brown skin and wasn't rich he would pretty much have been convicted and deported by now, especially with a centramericano name

~such is our way~

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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by theamazeeaz:

I am of the firm belief that young people know *exactly* what alcohol does to their judgement.

Said only as can be said with the mighty wisdom of those with no experience. This isn't the stupidest thing you've ever said, but it may be among the stupidest you say today.
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GaalDornick
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
if justin bieber had brown skin and wasn't rich he would pretty much have been convicted and deported by now, especially with a centramericano name

~such is our way~

On the contrary, if he wasn't rich he wouldn't have been driving a lambo and wouldn't have been pulled over and in this mess to begin with.
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Rakeesh
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quote:
Originally posted by Orincoro:
quote:
Originally posted by theamazeeaz:

I am of the firm belief that young people know *exactly* what alcohol does to their judgement.

Said only as can be said with the mighty wisdom of those with no experience. This isn't the stupidest thing you've ever said, but it may be among the stupidest you say today.
Good god, man, I do think that point is pretty seriously wrong, but what the hell?
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The Rabbit
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quote:
Originally posted by theamazeeaz:
I am of the firm belief that young people know *exactly* what alcohol does to their judgement.

Knowing that alcohol impairs a persons abilities, and judging how much your own abilities are impaired by consuming a given amount of alcohol are not the same thing.

Even when they aren't under the influence of alcohol or any other mind altering substance, young people have poor judgement because key areas of their brain aren't fully developed yet. Almost without exception, young people over estimate their own abilities and under estimate risk.
That combined with a lack of experience makes under age drinking a deadly combination far too often.

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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by Orincoro:
quote:
Originally posted by theamazeeaz:

I am of the firm belief that young people know *exactly* what alcohol does to their judgement.

Said only as can be said with the mighty wisdom of those with no experience. This isn't the stupidest thing you've ever said, but it may be among the stupidest you say today.
Dude, come on.
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by GaalDornick:
quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
if justin bieber had brown skin and wasn't rich he would pretty much have been convicted and deported by now, especially with a centramericano name

~such is our way~

On the contrary, if he wasn't rich he wouldn't have been driving a lambo and wouldn't have been pulled over and in this mess to begin with.
To expand on the initial point, in the county I live in right now there's an immigration rights and defense lawyer I know who has pointed out that here immigration's policy for if an immigrant with a green card got arrested under circumstances mirroring bieber's misdeeds it would be the county's policy to automatically seek deportation as a matter of course, based off of his experience.

Unless they were (a) white and presented with good english skills, or (b) wealthy and/or well connected in some way. And he's got a lot of experience in these affairs.

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Graeme
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I don't think it would be fair. I mean, the guy hasn't even been convicted of any crimes yet.

Besides, Toronto has been through enough lately.

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Orincoro
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:
Originally posted by Orincoro:
quote:
Originally posted by theamazeeaz:

I am of the firm belief that young people know *exactly* what alcohol does to their judgement.

Said only as can be said with the mighty wisdom of those with no experience. This isn't the stupidest thing you've ever said, but it may be among the stupidest you say today.
Dude, come on.
Give me your keys?
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Vasslia Cora
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quote:
Originally posted by tertiaryadjunct:
quote:
Originally posted by GaalDornick:
quote:
My understanding is that the INS can do pretty much whatever it wants and really really enjoys the fact that immigrants are at their mercy (I've heard stories).
That's a pretty egregious allegation to make based off anecdotal evidence.
You know what is reputation? Is people talking, is gossip...

http://www.thenation.com/article/americas-secret-ice-castles

Now for you, ICE reputation is not from gossip. You see this man? Ehh, he does not look white enough. I show you what ICE do with him, and now for you ICE reputation is fact. Is solid.

I have a very good friend that is in the final stages of becoming a citizen, she has to be very careful because until she is a citizen just about any illegal actions she does can have her deported. She has know people in the final stages of citizenship like herself, that were deported for as little as driving with an expired license.
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GaalDornick
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I'm not sure who is more annoying in this deposition, Bieber or the lawyer.
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BlackBlade
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They definitely seemed to be holding a competition. If it was a deposition, the lawyer certainly turned it into an interview.
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GaalDornick
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As much as Bieber sounded like an immature child, that lawyer sounded like a complete bozo.

For someone who is unfamiliar with the legal process, what is the defendant's motivation to even show up, let alone answer questions, at a deposition? Why would you want to give your prosecutor any information to help him try to convict you when the trial begins?

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Szymon
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quote:
Originally posted by theamazeeaz:

I like the idea of deporting him, because he's a rich, white dude from Canada who thinks he is above the law.


What is that "white" thing supposed to mean?
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AchillesHeel
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Can we please not devolve into that same troll argument again?
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Szymon
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Still

I mean, what is the color supposed to suggest? That he doesn't like rich people who think they're above the law, and additionally he doesn't like him even more, because he's white? Or in case some of us did't know, he informed us that he is white so we can visualize him better in our heads?

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DustinDopps
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Gaal - As part of the legal process, both sides have to have the same information available to them before trial. The defendant *has* to show up to the deposition and answer questions, even if those answers are all "No comment" or "I don't know."
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theamazeeaz
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quote:
Originally posted by Szymon:
Still

I mean, what is the color supposed to suggest? That he doesn't like rich people who think they're above the law, and additionally he doesn't like him even more, because he's white? Or in case some of us did't know, he informed us that he is white so we can visualize him better in our heads?

Is "he" referring to me? ... I am a white female, FYI.
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tertiaryadjunct
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Thanks a lot, now I have to visualize a sex-change operation in my head.
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theamazeeaz
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No need. Cis-female.
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Szymon
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Sorry theamazeeaz, I didn't mean to insult you, I didn't know your sex.

So what did you mean by "white"? I mean, I am really curious. Was it in any way racist?

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Aros
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Wow.

Szymon, this seems evident:
- There's an apparent dichotomy among races in the US. There is a perception that rich, white people are granted leniency in the court system.
- A case of this level of visibility would create certain perceptions in the media. High profile rulings have impact in the media and in other cases. If there was good evidence against Mr. Bieber and he was let go with a slap on the wrist, many citizens and members of the media would assert that it was because of privilege granted due to race and money.
- Many of the same people would see a deportation as a sign that the justice system will prosecute fairly regardless of race, money, or power.
- If you'll note any number of high profile cases, race is always a perception.

My guess is that by mentioning race, theamazeeaz purports that a decision by the justice system would impart a measure of impartiality. Wouldn't that be the opposite of racism? Why is it that every time someone brings up the topic of race, someone has to decry an accusation of racism. Racial relations are real. Only the ignorant ignore it as a significant factor. Isn't it as important as his money and celebrity to a ruling? ESPECIALLY in Florida?

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GaalDornick
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quote:
Originally posted by DustinDopps:
Gaal - As part of the legal process, both sides have to have the same information available to them before trial. The defendant *has* to show up to the deposition and answer questions, even if those answers are all "No comment" or "I don't know."

Thanks.

I'm going to go out on a limb here, tell me if you think I'm way off. But could it be the prosecutor was purposefully trying to get those reactions out of Bieber to show him as a spoiled, condescending celebrity so that when the trial begins a jury has less, if any, sympathy for him? In other words, maybe it wasn't information he was looking for, it was the footage of him acting that way to get a leg up on the trial.

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Szymon
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Thanks Aros. Ok, I get it. So what theamazeeaz means is that she is somehow frustrated with white rich people getting away with things, that other races don't get away with. A very famous, rich person, Justin Bieber, would make a good example, some kind of a precedent, if he was deported and not treated better because of his race and wealth, right? I am not being sarcastic in any way, it is just so new to me. Naive me thought that in a multicultural/multiracial nation of USA people in vast majority are color blind, because they're surrounded by different cultures/races on daily basis.
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Dan_Frank
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Compared to most other cultures, that's accurate, Syzmon. But most people here have no concept of what the experience of those other cultures might be like.

So they see correlations in some of the data on the American status quo and get Very Upset about them.

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Aros
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I don't think many people will posit that we're "color blind" in the US.

When I left my sleepy town in Utah, I came to feel that it was much the opposite. I joined the military and found that racial prejudice is very much alive. It's a lot more prevalent in some places (Southern California, the South), but it's very much alive and well.

It's going to be a long time before we can set aside gender / racial / sexual biases. Until then, courts need to take these differences into account in their proceedings. Yes, this will sometimes create a bias against some people. But most people will argue that it warranted (to some extent) to counter general cultural bias and protect the rights of larger groups.

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GaalDornick
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"It's going to be a long time before we can set aside gender / racial / sexual biases."

I disagree. Sexual orientation still has a long way to go, but most of the racists are aging. By the time my generation (twenty-somethings) are the establishment, I'll bet it'll be effectively gone. And I say effectively because obviously there will always be ignorant people but I've never met anyone my age that treats someone differently because of their race.

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Dan_Frank
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It won't be gone. For one thing, at minimum we'll continue to get immigrants from more racist cultures (as Syzmon essentially alluded to), who will in turn take time/generations to change.
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GaalDornick
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Like which cultures?
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Dan_Frank
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Most of them?

Eastern Europe, much of Asia and the Middle East, etc.

It'd be easier to name the cultures that are lessracist than us.

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Aros
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quote:
Originally posted by GaalDornick:
"It's going to be a long time before we can set aside gender / racial / sexual biases."

I disagree. Sexual orientation still has a long way to go, but most of the racists are aging. By the time my generation (twenty-somethings) are the establishment, I'll bet it'll be effectively gone. And I say effectively because obviously there will always be ignorant people but I've never met anyone my age that treats someone differently because of their race.

I would have concurred with this statement based on living in Utah and Central California.

But since then, I've seen fairly racist attitudes among young people in Louisiana, San Diego, Mississippi, Denver, and Chicago. And I'm not just speaking about white racists. I've seen attitudes just as bad (or worse) among Latinos, black people, and people of Asian descent.

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Szymon
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And what behavior is considered racist? What I mean: I imagine there are black neighborhoods 80% where or more population is black. Crime rate is 300% of any other neighborhood in that given city. (I of course imagine that there most probably are white neighborhoods with 100% white population and twice that crime rate, it's just an example).

So in that city, when someone says: Mom, my boyfriend lives in Nameoftheneighborhood. Is it racist of her mother to be concerned?

Is it racist to hold your child closer and firmer when you see a group of black people on the corner in Nameoftheneighborhood, just standing there, doing nothing illegal?

Is it racist to ask a black person from that city: do you live in Nameoftheneighborhood?

Things like that. You get my point I hope. When most crimes are commited by persons from a certain racial group, and that's provable because there are statistics for that. Is any form of thinking like: "Mhm, he's black/white/asian, I should be a little more careful, it is possible he might be a criminal. I don't want to be rude, I just want to be safe" justified?

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