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Author Topic: Video games and women
Dogbreath
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Isn't English your native language?
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Elison R. Salazar
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Dubs vary in quality. Its hard to notice any variance in acting if its a foreign language, that's why that German Oblivion total conversion mod is pretty awesome according to the EC people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXNQy9eKziQ&list=UUCODtTcd5M1JavPCOr_Uydg

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Dogbreath
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quote:
Originally posted by Elison R. Salazar:
Dubs vary in quality. Its hard to notice any variance in acting if its a foreign language

While this is also very untrue, I was actually trying to understand how being dubbed in (perfectly intelligible) English somehow made it impossible for you to see the sexism.
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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by Dogbreath:
quote:
Originally posted by Elison R. Salazar:
Dubs vary in quality. Its hard to notice any variance in acting if its a foreign language

While this is also very untrue, I was actually trying to understand how being dubbed in (perfectly intelligible) English somehow made it impossible for you to see the sexism.
Maybe because he was so distracted by the acting that he wasn't listening to the actual dialogue?

Not that that's really a good explanation.

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The Black Pearl
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:
Originally posted by MattP:
According to my feminist activist friends, there is plenty of non-sexist (or at least non misogynist) porn. Though they also say very little of that stuff can be found on the free Internet porn sites.

Yeah i have some friends and a couple of old lovers who work in feminist porn.
out of curiosity did you participate in any of it?
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Dogbreath
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Basically, sam, we want to know:

1) Are you in fact a porn star irl and

2) What's your porn star name.

Thank you.

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Dogbreath
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:
Originally posted by Dogbreath:
quote:
Originally posted by Elison R. Salazar:
Dubs vary in quality. Its hard to notice any variance in acting if its a foreign language

While this is also very untrue, I was actually trying to understand how being dubbed in (perfectly intelligible) English somehow made it impossible for you to see the sexism.
Maybe because he was so distracted by the acting that he wasn't listening to the actual dialogue?

Not that that's really a good explanation.

I would simply be happy with a rational one. Like, I didn't even mean it as a criticism, but rather because my meager brain is once again baffled by Blayne's logic.
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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Dogbreath:
Basically, sam, we want to know:

1) Are you in fact a porn star irl and

2) What's your porn star name.

Thank you.

so this is probably the most conceited thing you've ever heard, but none of those outfits even remotely paid anything even remotely worth the potential complications of being on screen, so i passed.

were i not to have passed, though, my porn star name would have been Edward Poontangenet, Duke of Pork

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Dogbreath
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Oh, no, I completely understand. I mean, I get 2, maybe 3 offers every month to be a porn star too, and I'm always like "I know you want to pay me a buttload of money to have sex with beautiful women, but no thanks."

Ok, for real though, when I was in college I worked for a little while as a waiter at an upscale tapas restaurant. I was 19 and very innocent, and one night this man looks me up and down and asks me if I can dance. I think well, I go swing dancing every Friday so I say "yeah, sure." Then he says "hey, how much do you make here every night?" I tell him whatever pathetic amount I usually took home, and he said "how would you like a chance to make 3 times that and I said "that sounds great!"

So he gave me his business card and told me to come by and "interview" next Monday. I should have figured it out from the name of the place (The White Unicorn IIRC) but I'm young and naive so I go down and check it out.

There are some things that cannot be unseen. Some memories that are too vivid to ever forget, no matter how much one might want to.

(I didn't take the job)

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CT
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Basically, Dogbreath, we want to know:

1) What would have been your porn star name.

Thank you.

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Dogbreath:
Oh, no, I completely understand. I mean, I get 2, maybe 3 offers every month to be a porn star too, and I'm always like "I know you want to pay me a buttload of money to have sex with beautiful women, but no thanks."

oh i would have absolutely done it for a lot of money. but usually if girls want to be in a shoot with a guy at these studios they bring in their partners if their partners are willing to do it for free (when they can they will also cover costs for the battery of STD tests required). many are willing to do it for free. the girls prefer people they are already in some kind of relationship with, and it gets billed as an actual couples thing (which is imo way better because it's not so much the unrealistic standard of sexual relations that lots of porn generally fousts)

and the feminist friendly porn operations prefer that people actually be an organic unit — like, these are people who genuinely have found they enjoy having sex with each other, so you can watch some actually organic and realistic lovemaking, right? or barring that a small cadre of performers who are at ease about the whole thing and do not make anyone nervous. and, on top of that, some of the operations are entirely or nearly entirely solo or woman only shoots.

i get why people would sign up for it just for the hope to be having sex with a porn star, but i technically have that already covered if i'm dating one of the performers, so what's the appeal? vanity? proving you can perform well under reaalllly hot lights?

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Samprimary
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vital continued viewing on the subject of porn as society's default sexual education

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPtjGH3Uo-k#t=45

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Destineer
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
vital continued viewing on the subject of porn as society's default sexual education

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPtjGH3Uo-k#t=45

That is truly fantastic. Thanks for sharing it.
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Destineer
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The way she says condom is hilarious, though.
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BlackBlade
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Final Fantasy's Tetsua Nomura redesigns Catwoman.

Admittedly, the character itself has always been eye candy. But with this iteration we've literally gone to a prominent woman character having her face totally hidden, while her breasts, stomach, crotch, and legs are all exposed. In the case of the naughty bits as much a literally possible without exposing nipples or labias.

But then again, maybe Nomura was just taking his cues from Western depictions of Catwoman.

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Elison R. Salazar
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:
Originally posted by Dogbreath:
quote:
Originally posted by Elison R. Salazar:
Dubs vary in quality. Its hard to notice any variance in acting if its a foreign language

While this is also very untrue, I was actually trying to understand how being dubbed in (perfectly intelligible) English somehow made it impossible for you to see the sexism.
Maybe because he was so distracted by the acting that he wasn't listening to the actual dialogue?

Not that that's really a good explanation.

Pretty much this. Gurren's dub is pretty bad and awkward like season 1 RWBY.

Plus the usual "Trying to pay attention to a specific thing so you miss the guy in a gorilla suit." I was watching out for more overt forms of sexism that the more subtle messaging was lost on me.

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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by Elison R. Salazar:
quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
quote:
Originally posted by Dogbreath:
quote:
Originally posted by Elison R. Salazar:
Dubs vary in quality. Its hard to notice any variance in acting if its a foreign language

While this is also very untrue, I was actually trying to understand how being dubbed in (perfectly intelligible) English somehow made it impossible for you to see the sexism.
Maybe because he was so distracted by the acting that he wasn't listening to the actual dialogue?

Not that that's really a good explanation.

Pretty much this. Gurren's dub is pretty bad and awkward like season 1 RWBY.

Plus the usual "Trying to pay attention to a specific thing so you miss the guy in a gorilla suit." I was watching out for more overt forms of sexism that the more subtle messaging was lost on me.

That's great you can understand that about yourself.
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Dogbreath
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTGh0EMmMC8
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Geraine
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
Final Fantasy's Tetsua Nomura redesigns Catwoman.

Admittedly, the character itself has always been eye candy. But with this iteration we've literally gone to a prominent woman character having her face totally hidden, while her breasts, stomach, crotch, and legs are all exposed. In the case of the naughty bits as much a literally possible without exposing nipples or labias.

But then again, maybe Nomura was just taking his cues from Western depictions of Catwoman.

As opposed to any other version of Catwoman, which showed only her eyes and mouth.

It just seems a little nit picky to me.

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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by Geraine:
quote:
Originally posted by BlackBlade:
Final Fantasy's Tetsua Nomura redesigns Catwoman.

Admittedly, the character itself has always been eye candy. But with this iteration we've literally gone to a prominent woman character having her face totally hidden, while her breasts, stomach, crotch, and legs are all exposed. In the case of the naughty bits as much a literally possible without exposing nipples or labias.

But then again, maybe Nomura was just taking his cues from Western depictions of Catwoman.

As opposed to any other version of Catwoman, which showed only her eyes and mouth.

It just seems a little nit picky to me.

I'm not sure what you are saying. If other costumers only show her eyes and mouth how is that similar to the problem I am griping about?
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Xavier
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I actually don't see what you see. Her skin tone is the pale bit right below the mask. The shiny gray you say is "exposed" is another layer of her costume. It's skin tight and impossibly thin, but that's kind of a comic book convention. One which the male costumes employ more often than not.

I'm not saying it isn't objectionable. Just perhaps not for her exposing too much skin. The comic book convention of body paint like costumes seems to be the crux of the issue, along with some questionable anatomical emphasis and proportions.

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BlackBlade
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I'm not so sure (And I'm feeling kinda squicky talking extensively about the minutae of the costume) but how do you have a visible innie bellybutton with even a skin tight layer of clothing over it?
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Xavier
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You can't, except in comic books. There it happens all the time.

Here is a quick example and another. Same artist and same character, but I'm sure I could find many more examples. Granted, the belly buttons are typically only found on female costumes. The men typically just have impossibly defined abs and obliques.

It's dumb, but there you have it.

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BlackBlade
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Interesting.
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Destineer
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It's very clearly gray spandex and not skin.
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scifibum
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Remember the Batsuit nipples?
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scifibum
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quote:
Originally posted by Destineer:
It's very clearly gray spandex and not skin.

I don't know - if you miss the contrast with the exposed chin it's easy to assume it's a stylized depiction of skin.
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sarcasticmuppet
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Back on the subject of women and video games, Anita Sarkeesian cancelled a USU appearance after receiving death threats. Utah gun laws played a part -- http://m.sltrib.com/sltrib/mobile3/58521856-219/sarkeesian-usu-video-feminist.html.csp

I actually gave it a full 24 hours before posting this, its been around Facebook for a while, and even I have to admit the letter seemed trollish. I tend to trust the SLTrib though.

But I'm sure she's making the whole thing up, right Germaine?

[ October 15, 2014, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: sarcasticmuppet ]

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capaxinfiniti
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Her tweet, according to the article:

quote:
Forced to cancel my talk at USU after receiving death threats because police wouldn’t take steps to prevent concealed firearms at the event.
Utah's gun law is an extension of a constitutionally protected right. The police -of all people - aren't going to start making up places where state law does and doesn't exist.
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sarcasticmuppet
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That is not even remotely the point. Gun laws only played a part in her having to cancel. The real issue is that the woman received death threats for daring to publicly speak about her critiques of media. I personally think the law is idiotic, but that's not an issue for this thread, even as off as it's gotten of late

As a friend of mine put it -- there is an inherent flaw to argument, "Video games are just a fantasy and don't actually make people act violently towards women, and if you keep saying they do, I'll beat you to death, you stupid bitch."

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capaxinfiniti
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That really is the whole point. Did you read the article? She would have continued with the lecture had the police denied entry to anyone lawfully carrying a concealed firearm. She has lectured in the past, despite having threats against her life.
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scifibum
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There being no way to effectively mitigate the threat is the "whole point"? Not that there is a threat?

WORST ARGUMENT EVER.

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capaxinfiniti
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quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
There being no way to effectively mitigate the threat is the "whole point"? Not that there is a threat?

WORST ARGUMENT EVER.

Don't be intentionally thick. I wasn't addressing the broader points of the discussion and you know it.
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sarcasticmuppet
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I'm not falling for the bait. Feel free to argue about gun control elsewhere. I'm trying to address the issue of a woman speaking about women's issues re: video games and getting repeated threats to her life and safety by dudebros who want to maintain the illusion of some hypermacho boys club that is their idea of gaming.
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scifibum
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quote:
Originally posted by capaxinfiniti:
quote:
Originally posted by scifibum:
There being no way to effectively mitigate the threat is the "whole point"? Not that there is a threat?

WORST ARGUMENT EVER.

Don't be intentionally thick. I wasn't addressing the broader points of the discussion and you know it.
I'll note that I was responding to a post where you were responding to a post that actually acknowledged the side issue and then redirected to the broader points of the discussion, and the content of your post was "yes huh it's the whole point".

I'm not being intentionally thick. You were very clearly saying that the more important thing to discuss is the gun control aspect.

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by capaxinfiniti:
I wasn't addressing the broader points of the discussion and you know it.

Yeah, and we also know why you aren't
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sarcasticmuppet
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NYT picked it up, along with quite a lot of information about the current state of events regarding gamergate and harassment in general: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/10/16/technology/gamergate-women-video-game-threats-anita-sarkeesian.html?referrer=
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Samprimary
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http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/10/gamergate-is-an-attack-on-ethical-journalism/

this article about nails it, including the 'show both sides' crap

and also reveals a major gamergater is a breitbarteer, which led to a literal lol from me

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Dogbreath
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For those of you who (like me) have *no* idea what this #GamerGate deal is actually about, this is a pretty decent rundown of what exactly happened and why.
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Rakeesh
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quote:
Originally posted by capaxinfiniti:
Her tweet, according to the article:

quote:
Forced to cancel my talk at USU after receiving death threats because police wouldn’t take steps to prevent concealed firearms at the event.
Utah's gun law is an extension of a constitutionally protected right. The police -of all people - aren't going to start making up places where state law does and doesn't exist.
What's your stance on free speech zones for Occupy protestors?
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BlackBlade
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Anita Sarkeesian's interview with Rolling Stone.

"I have gone ahead with events that have been threaten with bombing attacks before — three times, in fact — but each time I felt appropriate security measures were taken by law enforcement and venue security personnel. This time it was different. When I spoke with Utah police about what security measures were in place to protect the campus, I specifically requested metal detectors or pat-downs to make absolutely sure no guns were in the auditorium. Police responded by stating that they would not do any type of screening whatsoever for firearms because of Utah's concealed-carry laws. At that point I canceled the speaking event because I felt it was deeply irresponsible for me or the school to put everyone's lives at risk if they can't take precautions to prevent firearms from being present at an event at an educational institution — especially one that was just directly, clearly threatened with a mass shooting spree.
"

Makes sense to me. She recognized the police could not ensure her or the attendees safety because their hands were tied, so she cancelled. Doesn't sound like duplicity on her or the police's part.

But that does make me wonder what to do since the 1st and 2nd amendments are clearly banging into each other in this instance.

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Rakeesh
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Well, the 2nd as interpreted for maximum possible gun ownership and possession is obviously supremento anything else at any time.
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BlackBlade
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I can understand though that a person, having found out that a threat has been made to kill Ms. Sarkeesian and those attending her speech, that they would want to attend the speech armed, and not rely on the police protect them.

I'm not sure what the solution is here. I definitely don't think Ms. Sarkessian or the police did anything wrong in this instance. The law is quite clear.

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dkw
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So if the president was speaking on a campus in Utah would the Secret Service have to allow audience members to carry guns?
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NobleHunter
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BlackBlade, if neither Sarkessian or the police are in error perhaps the law is.

Arming oneself in the face of a mass-shooting threat seems like less than optional solution.

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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by dkw:
So if the president was speaking on a campus in Utah would the Secret Service have to allow audience members to carry guns?

The President is guarded by SS because he represents a national security concern, you and I not so much.

If we modify this rule, I can basically shut down the entire 2nd Amendment by issuing a death threat. If I'm speaking at a public park, can I require the police to disarm the people there too?

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Sean Monahan
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quote:
Originally posted by Dogbreath:
For those of you who (like me) have *no* idea what this #GamerGate deal is actually about, this is a pretty decent rundown of what exactly happened and why.

Thanks for this.
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The Black Pearl
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This shit is such a circus show and on both sides. I might honestly quit gaming forever.
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scifibum
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quote:
Originally posted by dkw:
So if the president was speaking on a campus in Utah would the Secret Service have to allow audience members to carry guns?

I can't find a definitive answer to this. There's this:

quote:
The White House, hoping to allay fears of a security threat, has said that people are entitled to carry weapons outside such events if local laws allow it. "Those laws don't change when the president comes to your state or locality," spokesman Robert Gibbs said.
from here:
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/32492783/ns/us_news-life/t/guns-near-obama-fuel-open-carry-debate/#.VEXcUIt4rZg

...I'm probably making it onto some kind of list. I should stop googling this stuff.

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Destineer
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On GamerGate:

http://fredrikdeboer.com/2014/10/27/everything-personal-cant-be-political/

quote:
The notion that geek-loved media and genres are disrespected just doesn’t jibe with reality. But more, I don’t know what alternative people are asking for. What would victory look like– what would it mean for them to be respected in the way people want? There’s this weird notion of active respect for art forms that just doesn’t occur in real life. Like, I sometimes think the people making these complaints imagine the rest of us sit around going, “hey, you know what genre I really respect? Cop shows.” “Totally. I also really respect cop shows.” Nobody gets that level of active respect for the things they like. But when you’re operating in an environment where you’re told that absolutely every minor dissatisfaction in your life is a political issue, there’s every reason to adopt the stance of “oppressed minority” rather than “human being dealing with the same constant dissatisfaction that we all do.” Even if that self-identification as oppressed person is absurd. I mean I will give them this credit: they are playing the media and the companies that advertise very well. This may be an absurd campaign to justify threats against women and other awful behavior through facile discussions of ethics in journalism, but it is also a savvy piece of media manipulation, undertaken by people who have learned the lessons of left-wing political critique too well. We wrote the book for them.

Argument is like all other human behaviors: subject to conditioning through reward and punishment. And we’ve created these incentives on the left: always politicize; always escalate; always ridicule. We’re living with the consequences of those tendencies now.


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