quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: I didn't use quotes...I'm not literally saying you said that...obviously...I had thought.
It is the exaggeration to prove a point.
Me: "Steak medium rare is the best, and people who like it well done are really just pretty silly."
You: "Rakeesh is speaking as though medium rare is the only intelligent way to eat steak, and people who like it well done should be compelled to eat only vegetarian."
Me: "WTF?"
You: I was exaggerating to prove a point!
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Ron Lambert: Name one [emphasis added] noted American philosopher, scientist, or composer up to that period. About the best you can do is Washington Irving, Poe, Thoreau. You have to go back to the founding fathers to find a community of people who wrote and spoke with real intelligence, and accomplished something truly noteworthy. Yes, we had Einstein; but he was born and raised in Germany.
Um, Carnegie, JP Morgan, Henry Ford, Thomas Edison, Rockefeller, The Wright Bros, Charles Lindbergh, Isaac Asimov, Harry Houdini, Howard Hughes, Helen Keller?
Late to the game here, but there's also
1. The entire school of pragmatism in philosophy: Charles Sanders Pierce, John Dewey, and William James (mid-1800s to early 1900s).
2. Aaron Copeland -- Appalachian Spring premiered in 1944, but his major works were in the 1930s and 1940s
3. Frank Lloyd Wright -- Fallingwater was 1935
4. The whole Art Nouveau and then Arts & Crafts Movement, with a Gustav Stickley (born in Oceola, Wisconsin, thankyouverymuch) sideboard from the early 1900s going for $360,000 nearly 30 years ago
5. Jonas Salk had not developed the polio vaccine yet, but he was working as a medical researcher by 1939 and laying the groundwork for it
6. Robert Freaking Goddard, the father of modern rocketry, built the world's first liquid-fueled rocket in the 1920s
That's just what I remember off the top of my head, though I did go back to check dates.
The US was not a cultural or scientific wasteland at that time, not by any means. We were not at the top of the heap, but we were in the game and a solid voice in the world conversation.
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quote:Ron shouldn't be hated, he should be pitied. And treated kindly, as if he were blind or deaf or mentally disabled.
As if he were, say, broken and delusional?
Yes...exactly.
Maybe you wonder the the streets accosting homeless vets w ptsd about how 'broken & delusional' they are...but I doubt it.
I kno I'm not going to change your view or Rakeesh's, but really think about it.
If you are correct about Ron, really & truly...don't you think you should treat him with kindness befitting someone who ain't all there instead of needle him & label him & mess with him?
How do you usually treat people you honestly think are broken & delusional?
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
The interesting part is where you seem to think this equates to more courtesy and politeness towards Ron, rather than something that is enormously patronizing. For one thing, as ridiculous and bigoted as so many of his remarks are (heavens, not him personally, of course), he's not homeless. He's not stricken with a mental illness to the point where he cannot keep a home or a job or his own wellbeing.
And since he's not, your asserting some sort of community responsibility to protect him from...what, himself?...under the guise of 'civility' is off-base. It isn't civilized to treat someone as less than a functioning adult human being, especially just because their politics are silly! It is, in fact, hugely condescending and fundamentally dishonest to the person you're nominally doing this 'for'.
Let's see, what else. Ah, when you said that people weren't addressing your opinions and we're just dismissing them, well, that was wrong. I'm not insisting you have to agree, but people did not just say 'you're wrong'. That was an untrue statement you made, and even after having it brought to your attention you don't seem inclined to address it.
My bit about steaks was very accurate to your 'exaggerations to prove a point': at no point did I say or suggest 'Ron's words are so bad violence is the answer', nor did anyone else. Which was what you were suggesting. However, in my bit about the steaks, there *is* an example of someone inflating a criticism to an absurd degree-which is what you did. Dudebro.
Finally, I wonder if you can after considering it for a little while see what problems might exist with comparing deaf and blind people to the mentally handicapped, and for that matter going on to likening all of them to homeless vets who are often stand-ins in conversations in our society for 'insane'. There's a lot I could say about this, and many others. However, I think this is probably another case of your simply not having considered the question before, so I'm asking you to think about it now.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
So...you don't think Ron is delusional & broken?...sounds like you and Tom should argue that one out* brotatochip.
As to "civility" I have asserted several arguments for my views...none of them was "under the mantle of civility" or whatever.
Providing David Duke as an example completely ignored two...count them two of my arguments.
As to others ignoring my arguments how many times has it been asserted "for Ron? Really?" after I have gone to great lengths to specificlly & throughly explain it ain't bout dat.
As to who was closer...it was me hands down. The parallel I was drawing how name calling of ANY KIND leads to dehumanization & dehumanization leads to dismissal which is the same damn mind set that leads to lynchings.
You were talking about meat? Whatever.
As to the comparison of different disabilities goes, I'm sure frank talk ruffled some PC feathers, but let that go a second & get my point here.
And here it is...we are all one race, one people, one soul, one cymbiotic organism, all stuck on the same rock...and if you are strong in a particular way, find someone who is weak & help them & be gentle and kind to them. Have mercy and gentleness for something broken, help it to mend.
I've asked you more than once what you get out of this Rakeesh...why are you mean to people online who are backward & delusional? Are you trying to help them you think? Honestly...what do you get out of calling Ron a bigot?
quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: Here I am about to answer Rakeesh when I see samp's whistle.
Sam Sam sam....are you even trying to add to this discussion any more?
I really expected more outa you man.
the point of it is that you just described ron something that you chastised tom for describing ron as.
i am using 'wry' 'humor' to make a point that your position is equally insulting to ron but you are pretending it is magically better in a way that actually just makes it more patronizing.
unfortunately it seems to have gone over your head, thus the explanation now
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Perhaps your joke missed its intended mark?
If both of our positions are equally patronizing then which tactic is more successful? Ron thanked me...so...I'll take that as his vote.
Bottom line...you guy's are too hard on people and are getting your jollys off at Ron's expence...he maybe 180 bassakwards but at least he's...sincere is the wrong word...but...um...personally invested? idk...
quote:As to "civility" I have asserted several arguments for my views...none of them was "under the mantle of civility" or whatever.
Considering that your stance, in support of JB's policy, is one that not calling someone a name even if you call most or all of their behavior and speech that same name is more civilized, that you're using the argument that calling someone a name degrades the person doing it regardless of its accuracy, you seem to be arguing for civility for its own sake here. It's not a 'whatever'. If that's not your argument, explain yourself better.
quote:Providing David Duke as an example completely ignored two...count them two of my arguments.
Since you misunderstood my reference, no, I didn't ignore any of your arguments. If I did, tell me which one. The point of David Duke was not 'hey hate that guy so hate Ron too!' It was to take someone who is indisputably a bigot and ask, "Am I diminished by calling him a bigot, too?"
quote:As to who was closer...it was me hands down. The parallel I was drawing how name calling of ANY KIND leads to dehumanization & dehumanization leads to dismissal which is the same damn mind set that leads to lynchings.
You were talking about meat? Whatever.
First, if you even approached practicing or even appearing to try to practice such a high-minded philosophy-some might say so high in the ivory tower of idealism to be divorced from reality-I might be less dismissive. But I'm still addressing your arguments. It is not, repeat not, the same thing or even 'the same mindset' to apply a bad label to someone based on their behavior as it is to ****ing lynch someone. Which is especially perverse coming from you, given your past beliefs about what the how responsible other people should be for how their speech and dress make you feel.
Think about this standard of yours. If someone, say, tortures a man to death by dragging him from their car along a road because he was a homosexual, and I call that person a homophobe, I am actually participating in the 'same worldview' as the man who lynched the homosexual? That is an extreme example, but if I take your professed worldview to such a scenario that is exactly the course of action recommended by you.
Argue all you like that 'calling people names' is bad. There's a case to be made for that, although you're doing a really bad job of it. But dude, lynching? That's not a freaking exagerration, that's you distorting an argument to the point where it's unrecognizable.
quote:As to the comparison of different disabilities goes, I'm sure frank talk ruffled some PC feathers, but let that go a second & get my point here.
And here it is...we are all one race, one people, one soul, one cymbiotic organism, all stuck on the same rock...and if you are strong in a particular way, find someone who is weak & help them & be gentle and kind to them. Have mercy and gentleness for something broken, help it to mend.
Goodness, yes. Lumping in the deaf and the blind with mentally handicapped people and homeless vets suffering from mental illness, goodness. Your 'frank talk' sure did ruffle my PC feathers, which was the source of my objection to those statements by you, Stone_Wolf.
Wait. No, no, I'm confused. It wasn't that at all. Maybe it was the part where you adopted an enormously patronizing-to these people, not to me, though you did that too-position in which you more or less treat them like children in a meaningless way that has as much to do with making yourself feel good as it does about helping anyone, and then lecturing others about being more charitable.
Know what none of the people on your list need, including Ron? A self-righteous, mentally lazy niceguy who thinks things are better if the whole people, the ones who aren't 'broken', would just be nice to them.
Let me put it even more simply: the people on your list, and especially the blind and the deaf, are empowered by your method of 'helping' them. Furthermore, your lumping in of the deaf and the blind and the mentally handicapped with people so mentally ill they are homeless and potentially dangerous to themselves and others is lazy and offensive. It's not 'frank talk', Stone_Wolf. It's just another example of your not really having thought about an issue before, shooting from the hip, and then believing that your own good intentions mean you can't be wrong.
quote:you mean to people online who are backward & delusional? Are you trying to help them you think? Honestly...what do you get out of calling Ron a bigot?
The funny thing about this is that I, and others, actually have a lot more respect for the mind and personhood of Ron Lambert than you do. To me, even though it would be difficult for me to disagree with him more than I do already, he is an intelligent adult with free will, who gets both credit and blame for his speech and actions. Given that I think these things, it stands to reason I also don't think he's some emotionally anemic helpless victim, who cannot stand to hear criticism of his views. The man has published books, Stone_Wolf. Now yes, later on he'll mourn my ignorance and profess a desire that God help me see the light, or more properly that I start listening to God, etc. And he'll continue to ignore inconvenient criticisms to his factually ridiculous arguments and probably wrong predictions.
You? You think he's helped by treating him as though he were mentally handicapped.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
This almost always happens when we get into it, you and I...this copy and paste...fute & refute...this grind into minutiae...and long winded rants that cross talk and utterly dodge/miss the point. By both of us. And I'm kinda tired it...especially the part where you tell me how I feel, what I'm going to do next or what my motivation is.
It honestly takes the wind out of my sails.
All humans are weak and strong and right and wrong and need each other to survive.
All your sneering & near constant bickering & inuendo of dishonesty have worn me down.
Just remember kids...you have homework to do before Daddy gets home (TOS violations).
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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Stone wolf, some posters are just never going to be able to accept when they are wrong and quit, and it's quite damaging to them and their psyche. I really pity people like this and it is why I am sad to see you going down this path. I feel that it is for the best that you stop trying this, because it is the only kind thing. If you keep doing this, you will just get hurt!
Posts: 805 | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: I love you too Parkour
Please don't play around with things like this, Stone Wolf! You have to stop posting now, it's for your own good.
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Stone wolf, we see this far too many times. Stubborness (presumably from childhood trauma) is sometimes cute, and sometimes you can "roll with the punches" but in other cases it's just really actually very sad and it makes you think that another person is fundamentally broken inside! I am asking you entirely out of kindness to ask yourself if you are as broken as people like that might be, and I can suggest some password scramblers so that you never have to put yourself through this out of habit.
Posts: 805 | Registered: Jun 2009
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If you don't want innuendo of dishonesty, try skipping next time the part where 'this is the same mindset as lynching' bullshit. Are you actually going to sit there and whine about being told what your intentions were when you responded with 'PC feathers ruffled' and 'get the pitchforks' and blah blah blah?
Anyway, since you're too tired now to address specific rebuttals, though not too tired to come up with an excuse not to, I'll sum it up: it is offensive to lump together deaf, blind, handicapped, homeless, and mentally ill people as 'broken' together; the mere application of the label 'bigot' to someone is not necessarily the same mindset as being bigoted towards other people, much less lynching; suggesting that Ron ought to be treated as broken or delusional is not being kind, or civil, or polite.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: Swing for the fences lad...are you even trying P?
Stone wolf, I think I have come to know and care for you as a human being and I want you to know, that I don't see ability. I don't see competence. I see us all the same. I don't judge you because of what you are, because I know you didn't choose it. I sometimes feel like I understand what it must be like to be you, but then I remember that it's not my place to be anything but your guardian. I can only recommend what has worked for other people who have severe deficiencies in logic and reason and cannot hold their own in a forum conversation without getting stuck in an endless chain of pointless responses that accomplish nothing that they want. I feel like the best way to be kind to you is to say that many people like you have found other things to do with their life besides posting. You too can be free of this affliction. I don't know what caused you to put yourself through this but we know better for you and it's time for you to move on. We will all be really happy for you.
Posts: 805 | Registered: Jun 2009
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posted
I lump all humans together and care less what that paints me.
Every single human has a disability...some are substantial and some subtle.
I really wonder what yours is that generates this apparent need to put bigots in their place.
Reguardless...I am not just well meaning...I have and do help.
All of us deserve pitty, and help and not being judged as human beings because let me tell you something my right fighting friend, the most morally steadfast human to ever lived hurt the people they loved internationally in their worst moments and the worst of us had moments of kindness & love.
So...keep judging and condemning other human beings...we are all one ****ed up childhood & a really bad day away from being murderer. You ain't behta den me.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_: Your point is ever so precious Parky, however, it falls on deaf ears. Oh woe is you.
Stone wolf, is there someone near you in your life that you can trust? Please give me some contact information so that we can talk to them directly. We want them to be able to to help you when you are compelled to post. Remember, there's no such thing as an awful poster, there's just people who go through awful phases in their life and shouldn't post!
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I can keep this up all night Paaaaaarky...plus I'm putting WAY less effort into this game than you...and having at least (if not more fun) than you.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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Stone wolf, I want you to remember that I care about you and I will try to stop other posters from saying things to you like "You just say stupid things and then you don't stop saying them" because that is impolite and rude. No matter how you act you should be able to keep posting as long as you want to and nobody can be rude to you. If we are mean to mentally deficient people who post bad things, that does not do nice things to the community and it is not a standard of civility we should be aiming for. Tell me the next time someone calls you a "really bad poster who cannot give up an argument and will continue responding no matter what" and I will tell them to stop that because calling someone a really bad poster is mean! Also let me know if you get stuck in a posting hole and think you are being clever but are actually being baited into responding over and over again by design. I worked at a school for special needs children so I can use some crossover experience.
Posts: 805 | Registered: Jun 2009
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Fairy dust ain't got nothing on you my lil guy! Look at you! You make my heart soar on wings of joy.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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I'm serious, Stone wolf, let me know if you catch someone who has figured out your stubborn fixation on posting because they think it would be entertaining and make you look stupid to bait you into never not responding to their posts even if they are clearly telegraphing what they are doing to you. This is a mean trick to play on people who do not know any better. I am really trying to help you here. You need to make sure to tell me before you get strung along and make enough of what we think you think are clever retorts to fill up an entire page of forum dialogue, because you definitely don't want that to be on record! We have to look out for the needy posters.
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Just take a hard look at your post count & then again at mine...you lack the steadfastness to make this joke stick and we both kno it.
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For the record, I previously identified this hill as not being a desirable one on which to die.
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Stone wolf, you need to let me know immediately if someone is saying something "I think a good test of if someone is really easy to bait because they are a bad poster with a tendency to never leave enough alone, is to see if I can get them to keep responding to me for a full page and I would have a lot of fun doing that" because that would make them a mean person and we need to protect you from meanness. Make sure to let me know before you have responded to them 20 times!
Posts: 805 | Registered: Jun 2009
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Stone wolf, let me know if you encounter a poster who has a forum name "I am trying to make the point that stone wolf is a really bad poster who really just is stubbornly and stupidly fixated on always getting a not-clever retort in, and he gets really stubborn about it, and I am actually just going to keep baiting him to respond to me in order for his own behavior to make my point about him being a bad poster" because that user could be trouble for you, and also that name is too long!
Posts: 805 | Registered: Jun 2009
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Stone wolf, let me know if you encounter a poster who has a forum name "I am trying to make the point that stone wolf is a really bad poster who really just is stubbornly and stupidly fixated on always getting a not-clever retort in, and he gets really stubborn about it; and I am actually just going to keep baiting him to respond to me in order for his own behavior to make my point about him being a bad poster" because that user has a semicolon in his name!
Posts: 805 | Registered: Jun 2009
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Stone wolf, let me know if you encounter a poster who has a forum name "I am trying to make the point that stone wolf is a really bad poster who really just is stubbornly and stupidly fixated on always getting a not-clever retort in, and he gets really stubborn about it‽ and I am actually just going to keep baiting him to respond to me in order for his own behavior to make my point about him being a bad poster" because that user has an interrobang in their name and interrobang sounds like a bad word!
Posts: 805 | Registered: Jun 2009
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Hey, Stone_Wolf! Hey, man, somebody said some stuff once about 'why do you keep interacting with these people like this'. I'll direct them to this set of exchanges, and maybe you can help them understand!
Translation: Goddamn it didn't take long for the veneer of worldly restraint to wear off for you, Stone_Wolf.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Stone wolf, let me know if you encounter a poster who has a forum name "I am trying to make the point that stone wolf is a really bad poster who really just is stubbornly and stupidly fixated on always getting a not-clever retort in, and he gets really stubborn about it!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and I am actually just going to keep baiting him to respond to me in order for his own behavior to make my point about him being a bad poster" because that user has way too many exclamation points in their name!
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