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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » The problem of Democracy (Page 8)

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Author Topic: The problem of Democracy
Rakeesh
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Her point was not that you shared the same mindset as Zimmerman, dude. Why do you think that? Of course she can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think her point was that-after you referred to manners police-George Zimmerman was bad at community policing, and you're not so great at it either.

Which might be a stinging criticism or it might not, but if it has anything to do with killing people I'll be very surprised. Whereas you, early in the discussion, went straight to 'mentality of lynchers' and set it side-by-side with 'calling a bigot a bigot'. That's not the same thing.

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Stone_Wolf_
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Accurate statements are observeably better than inaccurate ones, therefore calling a bigot a bigot is "better" than calling a non bigot one.

However, almost(?) everything one accoplishes by naming someone a bigot is still accomplished thru calling their views or actions bigoted.

It is better for the bigot bc they can separate from their beliefs & possibly change them. Also easier to hear bc it's less alienating.

For the bigot bequeather it is better for they are not condemning nor name calling, they are being a good example of the qualities they are advocating for, and not mudding the waters on who is treating folks wrong.

It's kinda like this...would you rather a police officer upon finding you drunk walking down the side of the road say for example, treat you with calm respect & dignity as they arrest you, or wag his finger and literally yell in your face.

Ron thinks you guys are evil...and the more you are unkind the easier it is for him to lie to himself & keep grouping us into a title that in his circle is one like bigot is here. Liberal. Not us. Other. Them. Outsider. Different. Weird.

[ June 01, 2016, 04:37 AM: Message edited by: Stone_Wolf_ ]

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Stone_Wolf_
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Not worthy of respect. Alien. Deluded. Broken. Crazy. They EARNED this. It's true isn't it? If he was nice to everyone...if he deserves it...then we'll be nice. But if he's backward or silly or just plain wrong...well then two wrongs do make a right...because we aren't wholesale bigots...we pay retail. Ours is the lesser sin bc we are ostracizing w purpose! They deserve it! Did you hear what he thinks? He's a monster. Other. Outcast. Unclean one.
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dean
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You seem to believe that protecting the feelings of a bigot is more important than protecting the feelings of either the people who are being discriminated against or the feelings of people who are offended by bigotry. Why are the feelings of bigots so important to you?
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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
Yea okay...I don't like being painted w the same brush as a murderer...just like you guys & lynchers.

I...see what you mean...


Of course I don't think you are a murderer. I do thing, though, that you have a persona that you buy into that is wiser and stronger and more f***ing paladin-esque than real human beings are. Reading some of your posts I wonder if you imagine yourself saying them with a flag waving in the background.

Now. We all have our own version of ourselves in our heads and some of them are more or less close to reality. But being our own heroes can sometimes make us see the rest of the world as helpless townspeople. As the rest of us see ourselves as our own heroes, too, that tends to piss us off.

Now, don't go overboard with the humility thing either. I am reminded of the ad for the old TV series Kung Fu where the hero proclaims - oh so sincerely - that he is just a man like other men. We know that already. [Smile] And remember that, while your instinct to help is good, we are not ignorant villagers who need you to rescue us from our foolish ways.

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Stone_Wolf_
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I appreciate the bottom line boots.

I don't see you as villagers...and myself as a hero.

I see us all as one big mixed "race" baby...crying & shitting & vomiting...and innocent & adorable & worthy of help & love.

Me too.

This is how I see humans. The "bad" ones are just lost children who have likely been hurt as much as they cause hurt.

You may think this is all...forumsplainin' or just my attempt at feeling good by phillisophically putting myself in a place of a teacher. Or whatever.

Change comes from within...pushing people to change before they are ready is detrimental to the outcome.

I feel strongly that the tactics used here are less effective...and dilute the message.

That's my opinion for what, it's worth.

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Rakeesh
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While I've never met a human being who is not in some way 'broken, from my experience it is also true that some humans are more broken than others. The dividing line between actions and speech, for example, can be a pretty clear boundary for that sort of thing. I really don't know the answer to the question of why that is, but it seems clear to me that it is.

I also disagree strongly that 'change comes from within' when, as you appear to be suggesting, this is the only means to achieve significant change. Change does not only come from within, and in fact some of the most significant changes for the better in American society in the past half century were rooted in efforts-sometimes explicitly-to make people uncomfortable. Advances in civil rights for minorities, women, and homosexuals-the movements to achieve what has been achieved in all of these endeavors did not happen because 'change comes from within'.

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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:

I see us all as one big mixed "race" baby...crying & shitting & vomiting...and innocent & adorable & worthy of help & love.


Yeah. Stop thinking of me that way. I am very few of those things and I find it annoying.
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Stone_Wolf_
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Um...no?

Is this a serious request?

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Stone_Wolf_
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Not talking about those kind of changes Rakeesh...you can't change someone unless they are open to the change.

You can force changes...of course...heck a brick to the head is demonstration enough of that principal.

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:

Change comes from within...pushing people to change before they are ready is detrimental to the outcome.

I feel strongly that the tactics used here are less effective...and dilute the message.

That's my opinion for what, it's worth.

Thank you for offering your opinion. Collectively we have decided that your advice is not valuable to us and we will be disregarding it. Please stop pushing us to change in the way you desire, we Will change on out own if we choose.

You have stated that change comes from within and pushing people to change before they are ready is detrimental to the outcome.

Do take your own advice and stop pushing us to change. We dislike your philosophy and find it flawed and ignorant of a lot of factors. We will be ignoring it. Thank you in advance for ceasing your evangelizing.

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TomDavidson
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I'll tell you what, though: you get Ron to admit that he's wrong about something and I'll give your advice a second thought. [Smile]
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Heisenberg
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
Um...no?

Is this a serious request?

I know, right?

Hard to imagine someone getting offended at being told that they're thought of as a shitting crying baby.

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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
Um...no?

Is this a serious request?

Yes. While I have no control over how you think of me, I can tell you that I find it offensive and obnoxious.
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Stone_Wolf_
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Yup...that's the plan Sam.

I'm definitely sure y'all heard me...I talked for like, 5 pages.

I wonder where thread drift will take this facinating thread next?

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Stone_Wolf_
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
I'll tell you what, though: you get Ron to admit that he's wrong about something and I'll give your advice a second thought. [Smile]

Same goes for me...if you guys can get Lyr or BB or CT to agree I'm wrong on any given subject, I'll clam right up.
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Rakeesh
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:

I see us all as one big mixed "race" baby...crying & shitting & vomiting...and innocent & adorable & worthy of help & love.


Yeah. Stop thinking of me that way. I am very few of those things and I find it annoying.
Others: "Ron is a bigot, for x, y, and z factual demonstrable reasons."

Stone_Wolf: "That is unkind, mean-spirited, and unhelpful."

--

Stone_Wolf: "I think we're all, including you, are mewling, incontinent infants, more or less. Fortunately I've got some wisdom you don't that can help."

Kmbboots: "That's offensive. Don't think of me like that."

Stone_Wolf: "Ummm, no. Are you serious?"

------------

Holy cow, man. Forumsplaining is the perfect word for this.

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Rakeesh
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
I'll tell you what, though: you get Ron to admit that he's wrong about something and I'll give your advice a second thought. [Smile]

Same goes for me...if you guys can get Lyr or BB or CT to agree I'm wrong on any given subject, I'll clam right up.
That's happened before, you know. Whereas I challenge anyone to find any example of Ron admitting a mistake. Clever, though, to suggest each is as likely.
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Stone_Wolf_
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Boots....how would describe humanity as if to space aliens who had never met us?

Specifically, why humans kill other humans.

Notice that "Harmless." & "Mostly harmless" will not be accepted.

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Rakeesh
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You're not a space alien. Neither is anyone else in this discussion. It's also an absurd example because imagining how we would speak about ourselves to any sort of other intelligence at all, much less extraterrestrial, is an exercise in total guesswork.

Let us also observe how very, very far into the rearview mirror the objection 'they will hear it as an attack, and be less likely to listen' has abruptly receded. You had decisive evidence in the form of her own words that she didn't take your remarks as fair or well intentioned or accurate, but you are not only willing to bulldoze past that, you were incredulous that she thought so.

Words such as 'ambiguous, poorly considered, and inconsistent' would seem to apply.

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Samprimary
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one time i kind of got ron to kind of admit he was wrong about something

like just kind of sort of

he worded his defeat in the most contorted, obnoxious, pretentious way possible

but it was still there

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TomDavidson
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Which is why I will consider taking advice from you.
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Samprimary
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the thing i like the most about that i had ron sort of admit to me that he was wrong about something makes it more entertaining when he comes in here like an idiot* and says idiot things like 'i have always been right and nobody has ever really legitimately succeeded in showing i have been wrong at anything'

because it shows me what he is refusing to process, mentally


*do note that I am saying that he comes in here like an (unspecified general sort of) idiot, and says idiot things, i am not calling anyone in specific an idiot just because they might always do idiot things always

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Which is why I will consider taking advice from you.

yessssssss

tom have you considered bitcoin it is the currency of the future. the end of fiat is upon us

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Risuena
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:

I see us all as one big mixed "race" baby...crying & shitting & vomiting...and innocent & adorable & worthy of help & love.


Yeah. Stop thinking of me that way. I am very few of those things and I find it annoying.
I'll second Boots (also, note I am not ClaudiaTherese nor is she me. Though I can only wish to be as awesome). I'm very few of the things you describe. And I find it very patronizing of you to describe me or anyone else like that.

I'd also say that some of the terms you use are more loaded than you think they are.

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Stone_Wolf_
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I don't think of individuals that way...just humanity in general.

Our life spans are just too short.

Rakeesh...oh yee of the unanswerable question...you don't decide which questions I can ask.

Now who is policing who?

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Stone_Wolf_
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Also your objection is plain silly.

One can easily speculate what they would say TO an alien...

I didn't ask her to imagine a response.

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Rakeesh
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Stone_Wolf,

I'm not telling you which questions you can ask. I'm pointing out the hypocrisy in asking certain questions and making certain statements which directly contradict earlier claims you've made. You can ask the questions all you like. I can't stop you, nor would I if I could. But you look ridiculous when earlier you claim 'calling Ron a bigot is bad because it makes him less likely to listen' (as well as other reasons, some of which you eventually dropped), and then say to kmbboots, "We're all squealing incontinent infants," and then when hearing she finds that offensive, basically scoffing incredulously.

Do you see the inconsistency here? Quite a remarkable degree of catering to what someone such as Ron might find offensive, and offhand dismissal of what kmbboots and Risuena find offensive.

But hey, I guess this falls once again under the umbrella of 'I don't consciously feel like I have a bad intention, therefore there can't be a problem with my position' philosophy you often take.

As for aliens, it's a ridiculous question. If we're seriously going to talk about this absurd, irrelevant sidebar you've made to avoid simply saying, "Ok, I'll try not to or at least won't say so to you," when people said, "That's offensive,"...what kind of alien? Where is it from, what's it like, what are its intentions, Jesus I mean 'alien' yes of course you can imagine it, but the point is any imagining you or anyone comes up with will be total wild-ass guessing. And since unlike other speculations, there is absolutely no real-life analog to draw on to inform your speculation, it ain't worth much.

As for humanity in general...for pity's sake you're contradicting yourself *again*. Repeatedly in this thread you've said that we are all broken. And what on earth is the functional difference between 'humanity is comprised of squealing infants' versus 'individual human beings are squealing infants'? The first statement necessarily contains the second one!

And, again, this still stands at odds with the philosophy you set out earlier with respect to Ron, where claims that would be regarded as offensive and make the listener less likely to listen should be avoided both for politeness and ineffectiveness. Make up your goddamned mind.

Oh, and as for policing. I haven't whistled you. I haven't said you shouldn't be allowed to say your vague, contradictory arguments. I haven't said the rules should prohibit it. So... It's still you, George.

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Stone_Wolf_
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In a word...nope.
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Rakeesh
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That's the sort of thoughtfulxl, self-aware reply that's come to be expected from you, Stone_Wolf.

So just to be clear: no remarks at all on the contradiction between concern over Ron being offended and not listening when called a bigot, and the offhanded dismissal of kmbboots when she expressed offense at being thought of as an incontinent, crying infant?

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Samprimary
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let's just assume stone wolf doesn't understand he has died on the hill, and the loudly and persistently ghost-infested hill is a terrible place to visit and has really low property values. it is a strange hill indeed, a silly place, let's not go there
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Stone_Wolf_
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I have trouble equating calling a single person a name...

And my personal view of humanity as a whole.

I'm having trouble taking you seriously.

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Stone_Wolf_
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Can you not see the inherent hypocrisy of telling me (almost constantly) my questions/points are silly/irrelevant while hotly demanding I answer your silly/irrelevant questions?
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Rakeesh
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Not really. I've explained why your questions and stances are, sometimes, silly or irrelevant. The aliens thing was irrelevant, and I explained why. Complaining about being too offensive to Ron and then casually dismissing it when someone says you are being offensive to them is...

Well, actually 'silly' isn't really accurate, but I was moderating my remarks because you're frankly extremely sensitive and prone to ignoring direct questions in favor of responding emotionally to challenges. What it *actually* is, to insist on less offensiveness towards Ron and the dismiss it towards kmbboots, is lazy, arrogant, and entitled thinking. Initially I would've said just lazy, and perhaps not even that much, but it's been brought to your attention repeatedly and you continue to ignore it. So it's even 'sillier' now.

It's very easy to understand. 'Humanity in general' is a group that includes kmbboots. For some crazy reason, she regards such a remark as including her. Almost as though she considers herself a human being that was maligned by your judgment of...human beings. It's not magically a neutral statement if you say it about *everyone*.

And then of course there's the problem that implicit in your claim about humans in general is the idea that in this instance, you're not such a squealing infant as she is. Because after all, you've got the better idea for addressing humans. "We're all equally crappy" is a pretty, well, crappy stance to take if your next thought is, "here's how you can be a little less crappy."

So: aren't you glad I was saying 'silly'? Anyway, please continue to ignore the challenge to the contradiction in your stance about offensiveness when it's Ron versus when it's kmbboots. Please, make it about me or how I'm too mean, or maybe just reply with a one-liner. I appreciate this is a tricky position for you. In the words of Negasonic Teenage Warhead, I've got you in a box here.

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Stone_Wolf_
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Yes. You clearly win.

What have you won Rakeesh?

What do you get out of labeling me wrong?

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Stone_Wolf_
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Oh...and I was not being sarcastic w boots.
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Rakeesh
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Thanks for proving me right! Whatever you do, don't address the very relevant question about your contradiction. I'd appreciate it if you did one of two things, really: claim to have addressed it already, or refuse to engage because I'm too mean and stuff.

As for sarcastic, I don't believe I said sarcastic, but more than once I did remark that you casually dismissed her objection.
quote:
"Um...no?

Is this a serious request?

Which as your post shows is not at all an unreasonable interpretation. As for what I 'get'...I don't know. When you try to do it, what do you get?
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Stone_Wolf_
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Dog piled.

Zing!

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Stone_Wolf_
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Actually it's a question...and not a dismissal.
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Rakeesh
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It didn't read that way. Be honest. If you earnestly asked someone to do something and they replied, "umm, no. Seriously?" would you hear that as ' it a dismissal'?
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Stone_Wolf_
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Possible...but I'd check either way. But that's me & I talk a lot.

I promise on my AR15 that when I'm not being sincere I'll use [sarcasm]duh [/sarcasm]

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kmbboots
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You really think that babies should have rifles?

[Roll Eyes]

It's that kind of macho persona crap that is doubly annoying. I wonder if Zimmerman swore by his gun, too.

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Stone_Wolf_
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That was humor.

Bc if I said "I promise" it wouldn't mean much in this crowd...so what would you guys think I care about.

Eta That is the first & only time I've ever said that...

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kmbboots
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It isn't funny humor and it reveals more about you than you think.
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Stone_Wolf_
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I feel as if I have personally upset you boots.

And if so...I'm sorry, that was not my intention

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Stone_Wolf_
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
let's just assume stone wolf doesn't understand he has died on the hill, and the loudly and persistently ghost-infested hill is a terrible place to visit and has really low property values. it is a strange hill indeed, a silly place, let's not go there

Not a grave nor a ghost...just a statue of a wolf with a plaque that reads simply "Kindness is its own reward."
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Rakeesh
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
let's just assume stone wolf doesn't understand he has died on the hill, and the loudly and persistently ghost-infested hill is a terrible place to visit and has really low property values. it is a strange hill indeed, a silly place, let's not go there

Not a grave nor a ghost...just a statue of a wolf with a plaque that reads simply "Kindness is its own reward."
Which is another saying that is often true and true on the surface, but just a little examination reveals how problematic it actually is. There are scenarios in which kindness isn't a reward to anyone.
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TomDavidson
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For my part, I object to the suggestion that what we're describing here might be considered "kindness."
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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
I feel as if I have personally upset you boots.

And if so...I'm sorry, that was not my intention

Yet you still hold to a description I told you was offensive.

Meh. It's obnoxious but I find it irritating not upsetting. I was just pointing out more macho posturing on your part. You've been posing for that statue on a hill for quite some time.

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Stone_Wolf_
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I ask you guys to follow the rules...and give good reasons for it...I'm the policing the board...

You don't like my personal view of humanity as a whole and expect me to change it on the fly?

Vert tha ferk?

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