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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Presidential General Election News & Discussion Center 2016 (Page 14)

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Author Topic: Presidential General Election News & Discussion Center 2016
TomDavidson
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SW, that you think you have enemies is both absurd and sad.
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Elison R. Salazar
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SW it'd be a lot less eye rolling if you had at least done the requisite amount of effort and leg work; for example, I don't recall you spending around approximately 8 hours of your time writing 20,000 words trying to convince Ron that no, he's actually wrong and completely off based and here's the list of certified historians who all agree and have done the research but no HE'S PLAYED A WWII BOARD GAME AND THAT MAKES HIM AN EXPERT AND THOSE HISTORIANS ARE EVIL LIBERALS SEEKING TO TURN OVER ESTABLISHED TRUTH BECAUSE THEY ARE ATTENTION SEEKERS WISHING TO CORRUPT PURE CHRISTIAN HISTORY NERDS BUT I CANT CALL A SPADE A GODDAMN SPADE BECAUSE IT WOULD BE RUDE TO THE 70 YEAR OLD WHO THINKS THE US WAS A BETTER COUNTRY BACK WHEN BLACKS AND WOMEN COULDN'T VOTE.
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Stone_Wolf_
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You are yelling like I don't already know Ron isn't pushing snake oil... everyone knows... that's why I don't get what you are so worked up over
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Parkour
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
BTW Parker...I wear your scorn as a badge of pride! With enemies like you, I must be doing something right

This is like hearing you say stuff like "because I believe things about the pyramids that makes educated people roll their eyes at me and think I'm a moron, I must be asking the right questions".

You're celebrating that you can

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Stone_Wolf_
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Not really, just publicly noting my disdain of your opinions in general
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Parkour
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*whooosh*
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Sean Monahan
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Jesus, here we go again. EVERY thread here has to devolve into this. With one common ingredient.

SW, no one is telling you to shut up, or not be yourself. But can you *please* just take this crap into a separate thread, so that it can be easily ignored by those of us who aren't interested?

And before you say so, the discussions here with Ron are not the same.

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Stone_Wolf_
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I've tried to move the WWII convo w zero results...and you guys can handle some back pressure on beat up Ron day...if everyone would stop flipping their lids that I had an opinion and shared it than Wolfgate 2016 would have been done and gone over a page ago

But instead let's hear from our next contestant on, Dogpile on SW day

And I was like, really REALLY clear that I won't clam up.

So you want less drama...so do I. Let's talk...idk?...about effing politics in this here effing political thread

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Samprimary
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stone wolf: man if people would just give it a rest we wouldn't have to go through any of this!

everyone else: so why don't you give it a rest yourself

stone wolf: no, i refuse to change, I'M gonna keep going no matter how much it annoys people. i just complain if other people don't accommodate my refusal to change, because then that becomes drama.

everyone else: ...

stone wolf: now then, i want less drama, so YOU can all talk about something else while i continue acting the exact same way thanks

everyone else: ...

stone wolf: it's a good thing i'm here to to remind people how to act more civil

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Sean Monahan
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
I've tried to move the WWII convo w zero results...

Zero results? It had exactly the correct results. A legitimate thread drift was broken off into its own thread, those involved continued the discussion, and those disinterested were able to ignore it.

quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
and you guys can handle some back pressure on beat up Ron day...

This isn't beat up Ron day. These kinds of discussions with Ron, for good or bad, are a staple of Hatrack. They've been going on a long time. This place isn't *turning cruel* because of this. But there *is* a change that has been going on recently. As ridiculous as Ron's claims are, and as absurd as his comments and points and references can be, he stays on topic. Whatever the thread title is, that's what he's talking about. He may mention in passing how poorly he believes he is treated, but he doesn't hijack thread after thread after thread to bitch about nothing else for pages and pages.

quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
if everyone would stop flipping their lids that I had an opinion and shared it than Wolfgate 2016 would have been done and gone over a page ago But instead let's hear from our next contestant on, Dogpile on SW day

"Everyone" did not *flip their lids* because you had an opinion, and this is a bizarre definition of "dogpile". You got a response from two people you have a history with (something which does not interest me, but which I can't help but be aware of). The blowback occurs when the thread degenerates, once again, to personal one-on-one bickering between some member of Hatrack and you about how you're being treated.

quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
And I was like, really REALLY clear that I won't clam up. So you want less drama...so do I. Let's talk...idk?...about effing politics in this here effing political thread

By all means, open your clam about politics all you want. But if you want to open your clam about yourself and other people, why don't you just do it in another thread? Why do these ones have to constantly get shit-up?
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Stone_Wolf_
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quote:
Originally posted by Sean Monahan:
But if you want to open your clam about yourself and other people, why don't you just do it in another thread?

No problem boss [Wink]
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Ron Lambert
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This was just published:

"After the extensive recount effort, Trump actually increased his margin of victory by 162 votes in Wisconsin." Link: http://ijr.com/2016/12/754565-final-results-are-in-from-wisconsin-recount-jill-stein-was-right-trumps-vote-count-was-off/?utm_source=email&utm_campaign=morning-newsletter&utm_mediu m=owned

Thank you, Jill Stein, for all the money you spent getting this result.

And although the recount in Michigan has been halted, it has already been discovered that in one precinct in Detroit (mostly black, mostly Democrat, with Democrat poll officials and Democrat government) a sealed box labeled as containing 300 ballots, was found to contain only 50 ballots. Someone had to sign off on that when it was sealed. There were a few "GOP" volunteer officials who supposedly also signed off on it, but they were appointed by the Democrat Clerk's office. Just as I expected, any recount would reveal election fraud by Democrats. Too bad they are not including in their recount efforts an attempt to assess how many voters were illegal aliens, who should not have been allowed to vote in our elections, because they are not citizens. But City Clerk officials and poll officials were not allowed to inquire about anyone's immigration status, since Detroit is a "sanctuary city."

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Ron Lambert
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A word, if I may, about the Democratic Party's obsession with going into hysterics about alleged Russian hacking of the Democratic Party leadership: Even if the Russians were the original source of the Wikileaks revelations of Democrat e-mails, that still does not prove that any of the damaging things in those e-mails were not actually written by the authors of those e-mails. Unless the Russians (or anyone else) actually hacked voting machines (which experts say is not possible, since they were not connected to the Internet), then the Russians or whoever the hackers were did our nation a real service, by revealing the dark, detestable, criminal things Democrats said and did which they were trying to conceal, and from which they are still trying to divert attention.
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Stone_Wolf_
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Maybe so, had they ALSO dished the dirt on the reds, instead, the timing is suspect as an effort to influence the elections.
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NobleHunter
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I would not be surprised if we start seeing the "dark, detestable, criminal things" the GOP did after the electors vote.
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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
A word, if I may, about the Democratic Party's obsession with going into hysterics about alleged Russian hacking of the Democratic Party leadership: Even if the Russians were the original source of the Wikileaks revelations of Democrat e-mails, that still does not prove that any of the damaging things in those e-mails were not actually written by the authors of those e-mails. Unless the Russians (or anyone else) actually hacked voting machines (which experts say is not possible, since they were not connected to the Internet), then the Russians or whoever the hackers were did our nation a real service, by revealing the dark, detestable, criminal things Democrats said and did which they were trying to conceal, and from which they are still trying to divert attention.

If Russians stole American nukes and used them on an American city, would you argue that it isn't really the Russian's fault, and the Americans never should have created the nukes to begin with?
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Ron Lambert
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Lyrhawn, sorry, but that was the poorest attempt at drawing an analogy that I have ever seen. NOTHING equates.
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Ron Lambert
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It is not just one precinct in Detroit that had a discrepancy between the number of ballots claimed and the number actually recorded by poll workers:

quote:
Green Party candidate Jill Steinís Michigan recount unintentionally exposed major voter fraud in Detroit.

Election officials in Michigan found that 37% of precincts in Detroit tabulated more ballots than the number of voters tallied by workers in the poll books.

Hillary Clinton won Wayne County over Donald Trump 67% to 30%.

State officials are planning to examine about 20 Detroit precincts where ballot discrepancies occurred.

Detroit News reported:

Voting machines in more than one-third of all Detroit precincts registered more votes than they should have during last monthís presidential election, according to Wayne County records prepared at the request of The Detroit News.

Detailed reports from the office of Wayne County Clerk Cathy Garrett show optical scanners at 248 of the cityís 662 precincts, or 37 percent, tabulated more ballots than the number of voters tallied by workers in the poll books. Voting irregularities in Detroit have spurred plans for an audit by Michigan Secretary of State Ruth Johnsonís office, Elections Director Chris Thomas said Monday.

Link: http://dcwatchdog.org/what-voter-fraud-michigan-recount-uncovers-too-many-votes-in-37-of-detroit-precincts/

What this sounds like is that someone--in about 20 precincts--fed the same ballot into the vote tabulating machines over and over again. The report said that state officials are going to investigate this. In other words, this is a matter of criminal investigation. They will be questioning every worker in those 20 precincts, asking them how they did not notice this, and how they could sign off on sealing boxes containing ballots that are labelled as having many more ballots than they actually contain.

[ December 13, 2016, 05:00 PM: Message edited by: Ron Lambert ]

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Lyrhawn
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Hundreds of precincts around the state couldn't be recounted because the ballots totals on the report outs didn't match with the totals on the boxes. This extends way beyond just Detroit. The vast majority of it is simple human error, and failures on the part of poll workers to reconcile different count numbers as the are supposed to. The real travesty is that Michigan election law forbids these precincts from being recounted, making election fraud more likely and less transparent.

Guess who put that idea into law? Hint: It wasn't Democrats.

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Ron Lambert
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Lyrhawn, the recount in Michigan was halted before it was complete by a federal judge. But it did have some results in Detroit, where the recount would likely have begun (before rural areas of the state). In at least one case previously reported, the sealed box for a precinct was labelled as having 300 ballots in it, when in fact it only contained 50 ballots. There is no way that could have happened by accident. Poll watchers were supposed to sign off on those boxes.

So your response is to try to put the blame on Republicans for some egregious sin by Democrats. When are you going to allow true honesty to change your political worldview? Can't you admit that Democrats are continually discrediting themselves?

[ December 13, 2016, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: Ron Lambert ]

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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
Lyrhawn, the recount in Michigan was halted before it was complete by a federal judge. But it did have some results in Detroit, where the recount would likely have begun (before rural areas of the state). In at least one case previously reported, the sealed box for a precinct was labelled as having 300 ballots in it, when in fact it only contained 50 ballots. There is no way that could have happened by accident. Poll watchers were supposed to sign off on those boxes.

So your response is to try to put the blame on Republicans for some egregious sin by Democrats. When are you going to allow true honesty to change your political worldview? Can't you admit that Democrats are continually discrediting themselves?

Egregious sin?

More than likely an 85 year old poll worker who had been working from 6am until 9pm put the ballots in the wrong place and incorrectly signed off on the sealed box. Michigan elections are horribly mismanaged. Poll workers are untrained. Machines are old and break down. It's difficult to verify and audit results thanks to our bizarre laws.

I'm glad they are auditing a random sample of Detroit ballot boxes. Hopefully they'll come away with some common sense reforms to make our election system here better. But I doubt it.

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Rakeesh
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I love the way blindness and dishonesty just snowball into your conspiracies, Ron. 'There's no way that happened by accident!'

Except...well, just a screw-up, also commonly called an accident. Don't know if that's what happened here, but it's entertaining how you totally discount the possibility right up front.

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Heisenberg
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Okay, maybe it was just a snowball of mistakes due poor practices and over aged and overworked poll workers. But the results are showing this across multiple precincts in pretty egregious numbers.

I'm not with Ron, I don't think it's a smoking gun, but it certainly needs to be looked at really closely with the blinders off.

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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Heisenberg:
Okay, maybe it was just a snowball of mistakes due poor practices and over aged and overworked poll workers. But the results are showing this across multiple precincts in pretty egregious numbers.

I'm not with Ron, I don't think it's a smoking gun, but it certainly needs to be looked at really closely with the blinders off.

Ron's point only covers half the story. More than a thousand precincts across the state, in liberal and conservative areas (and really everything outside of Metro Detroit is pretty red), were found to be not recountable because there were inconsistencies with the ballot boxes. Some of them were improperly sealed, some weren't recorded correctly, etc. I think the story here is that Michigan election procedures are fundamentally flawed and error-prone, and a major overhaul is necessary to improve the integrity of the process.

And as I said before, it should absolutely be investigated. It should be statewide, not just in Wayne County.

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Samprimary
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michigan is not interested in creating errorless voting and would fight an overhaul even if they had evidence of widespread electoral tampering.

the only way they would not stonewall on electoral tampering is if it was electoral tampering that benefited democrats.

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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
michigan is not interested in creating errorless voting and would fight an overhaul even if they had evidence of widespread electoral tampering.

the only way they would not stonewall on electoral tampering is if it was electoral tampering that benefited democrats.

I absolutely agree with this.
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Stone_Wolf_
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Why MI so cray cray?
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Samprimary
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MI isn't even the worst. the north carolina GOP is actively subverting democracy to make sure white people stay in power. this is not hyperbole.
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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
Why MI so cray cray?

Because it's completely controlled by Republicans.
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Stone_Wolf_
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That'd do it
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SenojRetep
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quote:
Originally posted by SenojRetep:
The question is volatility. In the end, everyone who votes will vote for someone. Right now, relative to 2012, there seem to be a lot of undecided voters, especially if you factor in that 3rd party candidates tend to lose support over time.

So where does that 16% of the vote go? Does it split evenly between the two candidates? Or swing more toward one or the other? This chart maps out how undecideds broke in several close Senate contests over the past few elections. I'm not sure of the methodology, but it appears that in most cases the 'undecideds' seem to break disproportionately toward one candidate or another.

If this translates to the Presidential election, it means that this election could still be a blowout either way, with Trump winning Oregon or Minnesota, or Clinton winning Georgia or Arizona. Or, if the shifts are idiosyncratic, it could mean a large deviation from the fairly consistent red/blue maps we've seen over the last four elections.

Nate Silver sees significant impact of a late deciding voters on the election.

The Invisible Undecided Voter
quote:
The late shift toward Trump, like other periods of polling instability throughout the campaign, was consistent with a long-term pattern. Historically, the more undecided and third-party voters there are, the more volatile and less accurate the polling has tended to be. The relationship ought to be fairly intuitive: Thereís not much a pollster can do when a voter hasnít yet made up her mind.
In the end, the shifts turned out to be somewhat idiosyncratic; other than the mid-West, most states' undecideds didn't break strongly for Trump. But in PA, MI, OH, MN*, WI they did. Which broke the 'blue wall' of states that had gone Democratic for several elections in a row. We didn't get to the North-South split I had been envisioning, but the map was still quite different than previous years.

*Trump lost MN; but third party candidates held up better there than elsewhere. Clinton's margin of victory was less than a fifth of the combined third-party vote, which was about 8.5% of total (compared to about 6% nationwide). Evan McMullin did particularly well there with 50K votes (about 1.8% of total), better than anywhere other than UT and ID.

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Parkour
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Well, we're ****ed.
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JanitorBlade
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That's putting it fairly generously I'm afraid.
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theamazeeaz
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I'm curious how many people are thrilled with their choice so far...
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capaxinfiniti
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quote:
Originally posted by Parkour:
Well, we're ****ed.

Well that's a really pessimistic view of tbe situation. You know, the cones of some pine trees require forest fires to allow the propagation of the seeds within.
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TomDavidson
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In this case, though, we're the existing trees.
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Elison R. Salazar
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Trump to focus on finding illegal voting only in states the Democrats won.
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Rakeesh
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quote:
Originally posted by capaxinfiniti:
quote:
Originally posted by Parkour:
Well, we're ****ed.

Well that's a really pessimistic view of tbe situation. You know, the cones of some pine trees require forest fires to allow the propagation of the seeds within.
People are like pine trees: alternative fact.
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