posted
I am curious how many writers here like to map out their stories with plotlines and mappings before writing the first draft versus how many just write the story and see what happens.
posted
I used to do extensive plotting but I have recently decided it's not for me.
The best thing, IMO, is extensive character development. The story flows from the characters. I also like to have an idea of where I'm going. I even like to have the last scene figured out so that as I'm writing I have it in mind as my goal.
But extensive plotting and mapping has not worked for me. It bogs down the creative process in planning, taking away from the thrill of discovery in the rough draft and nearly crippling the suspense in the second or third. Also, I almost never follow the outline, which is ok for those of you who do want to outline, but then as the divergence gets bigger and bigger it makes me feel insecure and I constantly worry about not being on the right path.
Like with many things, I take the middle of the roar approach, doing some planning but not a lot.
posted
I don't do any kind of formal prep work for short stories. I usually think about it for a few days before anything gets written down, though. For novels I do all kinds of character and plot development work before I start writing but I think I do too much and get bored before I even start. I am leaning towards less and less prep work.
Posts: 1750 | Registered: Oct 2004
|
posted
I should clarify: prep work is for novels, not short stories. I always write short stories free-form. The difference between the two forms is that at the end of a short story, starting from scratch on a new draft isn't much of a bother. With a novel, on the other hand, I've got a new rule of thumb: two drafts and I'm done. I'm finishing up my third draft on my current project and while I think it is the best draft, it was a chore to write. In that way, I think it is missing a lot of the spirit of the first two drafts.
Posts: 3567 | Registered: May 2003
|
Daniel Thurot
unregistered
posted
I think a lot of it depends on what you're writing -- of course. I personally agree that short stories are generally freeform, but some of my shorts have had outlines of general places that I knew I wanted to go. Instead of a big, extensive outline, it was just points that I knew I had to eventually hit. For longer stories -- but not yet full-length novels -- I actually have done far less of an outline. But for novels I have always chosen to detail the story in its entirety before I begin.
It works like this: I'll just jot down ideas in a notebook for over a year on a single story idea (multiple stories can be growing at once, of course). Once I have a general idea of what I want, I'll write an outline and then wait a month to think some more. Invariably, the outline will look idiotic compared to what I come up with later. After three or four outlines, I have one that I know will work decently for a story, and I stick to about 70% of it as I write the book. Just because you've outlined it doesn't mean you've restricted yourself.
posted
I found an outline very useful for my novel. But sometimes things don't go in the direction you were planning. That's okay, you just reform your plan. I think getting to the moon was 98 percent course corrections. Which sort of seemed on the low end, to me. I think having an inflexible plan is not so good, but having some plan is necessary- even for a short story.
Posts: 366 | Registered: Sep 2006
|
posted
When writing my novels, I use a format - usually chapter by chapter. This way, if I decide I really don't want to work on 'THIS' right now, I can skip to another chapter and begin working on 'THAT'.
All of my novels are character driven. But since I usually deal with horror or mystery or paranormal, it's best to have an idea when the clues will be laid out for the reader and when you're talking 85,000 words.. well.. a re-read isn't always ideal to 'catch-up'.
I think my writing structure format has been heavily influenced by my screenplay and stage play writings. Each chapter is almost treated as a scene...
posted
For my novel, I made a scene-by-scene outline in Excel; printed it, color-coded by thread; cut it up, and rearranged them. I put them in chapters, decided on chapter theme, what I wanted the scene to do in relation to that theme, and at one point, why the scene was exciting (and if it wasn't I threw it out).
For short stories, I wouldn't bother -- I can keep it all in my head.
posted
Stories often get a sort of thesis statement. But novels I plot chapter by chapter. Admittedly some of the chapter summaries say, "Something bad happens." but, having tried the plotless novel format, I find that I wind up with irredeemable plot problems. I also adjust the plot as I make new discoveries, but having the outline means that I'm certain the new idea fits into the broader idea.
Posts: 2022 | Registered: Jul 2003
|
posted
I end up with irredeemable plot problems in novels regardless of how much work I do in advance. So now I'm working more freeform, because I enjoy it more. If the end result is going to be deeply screwed up either way, i'm going to take the path that I enjoy the most.
Posts: 1750 | Registered: Oct 2004
|
posted
I agree, Beth. No matter how much planning I do in advance nothing comes alive until the words start appearing on the page. Inevitably, there is something in the plot outline that means I wasted hours of planning.
Posts: 3567 | Registered: May 2003
|
posted
For short stories: I write character sketches, a first draft without planning, and tighten it afterwards. For novels: I do a lot of preliminary work, but it has little to do with plot. I write character sketches, docs about the world, magic, history, countries, etc. I then start writing. Generally I know where I'm going to end (it tends to be a geographical location on the map with a few ideas of what state the characters are in at that point), but not how to get there.
Posts: 1075 | Registered: Sep 2004
|
posted
I've only tried my hand writing a novel once. While I didn't do a written outline, I sort of mapped out the basic action of the story I wanted tell. I made a list of the characters I wanted to include and occassionally made notes about scenes I wanted to write. I wrote the book more or less free-form I guess, but it always seemed to wend its way towards my goal.
It was sort of like solving a math problem. How do I get character X to position Y so that character Z can go to points A, B and C?
It helped that what I was writing, was based on an existing story so in a way I did have an outline of sorts.
Now, I'm probably going to try my hand at the White Wolf contest, and this time I've got a basic outline. I need to revise it in places, but I have a concept for the whole novel and can see the action from beginning to end so I'm writing it down in point form so I don't forget it.
I guess I can see this being more linear in ways than my free-form writing, I can anticipate writing it easily within a month or two (my first novel attempt took a year ).
posted
The closest I get to story mapping is filling my note pads with a huge chaos of notes that can only possibly make sense to me... and sometimes not even me... A lot of my mapping habits come from reading things like "Shadow of the Hegemon"... anything that involve a war in my stories tends to be competing with some of the concepts in SOTH and so requires me to map some things out a bit, but not so much that I end up losing the randomness that war quite often posses...
Posts: 183 | Registered: Jan 2005
|
posted
I draw the whole thing out and mark up all the connections between people and what people are doing when they are not in the action (retentive). Then I write it and find that it seldom looks like the map I started with except for a few key landmarks.
The charatcer generation exercises is what really get under my skin, when I feel I have done that well enough, the story almost suggests itself to me anyway.
posted
Any plotting I do beforehand is entirely in my head, and I usually end up writing something completely different anyway. I guess I'm from the Stephen King school of thought on this one. Drop a character or two into a situation and see what happens.
Posts: 270 | Registered: Jan 2005
|
posted
JB - I used to just write without any planning whatsoever. I always ended up writing myself into a corner. I would have a plot with no resolution or viable motive, characters that had no depth and a storyline that wandered all over the place. It was fun, but not productive.
Now, the first thing I do is extensive back-story on the lead and opposition characters. This often presents story ideas. Then I flesh out the culture, politics, religion and other pertinent aspects that affect the characters. Finally, I take pen and paper and freewrite a synopsis of what I want the story to be about. I do not start writing it until I can handwrite a clear beginning, middle and end to the story on only one sheet of paper (the one-sheet concept is important for me because I tend to ramble and meander).
That does not mean I will always know exactly how I'll get from point C to point D but at least I know that there's a point D to get to.
posted
I usually start with some pages of notes, then just write in-process plotlines to help keep me on track.
For short stories I don't bother with the plotlines--just a few paragraphs of notes in the form, mainly, of questions that I need to find an interesting answer to.
posted
I've always been impressed by a writer's ability to lie to my face. The honest good writers say that they know how the story is going to end by the end of the first chapter. The dishonest good writers, know how the story is going to end by the first chapter, and then when they get in front of an audience and tell them it was the character's decision.
And in most stories that I don't like, I can tell the writer was trying to take it as it comes, practicing what the dishonest writer preached.
quote:For my novel, I made a scene-by-scene outline in Excel; printed it, color-coded by thread; cut it up, and rearranged them. I put them in chapters, decided on chapter theme, what I wanted the scene to do in relation to that theme, and at one point, why the scene was exciting (and if it wasn't I threw it out).
thatta boy.
____
For the record, I knew the flow of the story and the decision in the final scene before I finished the first 1000 words. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be room left for contingencies, but I don't want to suffer through a writer's wandering indulgences.
[This message has been edited by Tanglier (edited March 07, 2005).]
posted
Sure, wandering indulgences should be weeded out in the second draft. But I think it's rather arrogant to assume that everyone who doesn't write the same way you do is a liar.
Posts: 1750 | Registered: Oct 2004
|
posted
I think there is a little bit of wandering in every story. Some of us just happen to wander more. We also spend more time revising and editing out all the holes we created during the journey. As long as it comes together in the end, it doesn't really matter how it's done.
Posts: 270 | Registered: Jan 2005
|
posted
I have taken to drawing relationship diagrams for the major characters. I use posterboard and draw positive relationships with green marker, negative with red and neutral with black. Plot outlines are easy, just a single page, but kinships/relationships are a killer IMHO.
Posts: 245 | Registered: Feb 2005
|
posted
Tolkien reports that when Strider strode into that inn in Bree, he did not know who this character was. Strider ended up being an important character well integrated into the story. I don't believe Tolkien was lying to us, his best friends, and the world.
Posts: 2830 | Registered: Dec 2004
|
quote:classical musicians spin the same jive about practicing
Sorry, I'm a little confused by this statement. Are you saying that classical musicians claim that, when they start practicing a new piece, they don't know how it will end? And how does that relate to calling a lot of writers "dishonest"?
Posts: 932 | Registered: Jul 2001
|
posted
My own working habits fall somewhere in the middle, although having tried writing freeform several years ago I can report it does not work for me, and I do more and more prep work each time out.
Bear in mind I do the same amount of work for SF as for fantasy stories (sometimes more for SF if I have a technical problem I just can't resolve, because that means turning to outside sources for help).
Short stories--character sketches, maybe a paragraph or two of outline just to keep everything in my head; I used to be able to do a short in a day, but these days it averages about four days, depending on length (7000 or less, four days or less; over 7000 words, a week or more).
Novels--character sketches; copious pages of notes in which I decide where I want to go in the first place; a rough outline (usually in paragraph form, these days chapter by chapter)--I diverge from it whenever I have a better idea. The more I think through a plot point, I find that my fifth, sixth, and seventh ideas always end up being better than my first (I think OSC covers this in his book on writing SF/F and it blew my mind; since I've read that I've had far fewer plot problems).
I also like to do maps. Admittedly, it's partly because it's fun to draw them, but I also need to know where Character X is going and what they might see on the way.
When I haven't done this sort of work in the past I've ended up with ramshackle plots that were full of holes and worlds that looked more like bare closets than, well, worlds.
Every writer has a different working method, IMHO. I've met a few people who had prodigious enough memories that they could keep what they wanted to know in their heads and get away with very little prep work, and I've also met people who outline every little scene in a novel. I can't do that.
My own opinion on the subject is "whatever gets you through the night, s'alright." To coin a phrase.
posted
I'm somewhere in the middle. I usually won't start a story until I know what the ending will be. Otherwise, I wind up with a story with a blah ending. If I know the ending, I can figure out a beginning and the middle will usually fall into place.
On shorts I just write it, unless I already have something I'm working on. In that case, I keep a notebook just for jotting down story ideas. On long stuff, I've tried both ways. Right now my habit is to write an outline and make lots of notes over a long period of time. Then throw out the outline and write the story, remembering the ending and the high points along the way. (But I still need the notes).
posted
I started out doing no plotwork at all - just write, and figure that the story would come out.
This did not work out so well for me. I was averaging 5 major rewrites per book. Not "Oh, dear, need to rewrite the ending" rewrites. More like "Oh, crap, need to throw out half the characters, most of the setting, and all of the plot and then start over" rewrites.
But outlining does not work well for me either; I change my mind too much.
Of late I've been plotting, more-or-less successfully, with the help of two programs:
The first program, Inspiration, is a brainstorming program; I use it to toss out ideas and keep track of plot threads. Pre-writing stuff, basically.
Then I take what I've got from Inspiration and put it into a recognizable timeline of scenes with SuperNotecard.
Then I start writing.
Of course, I still change my mind constantly, adding, subtracting, and altering-beyond-recognition my scenes, but I've found SuperNotecard pretty invaluable for doing the mid-book reshuffling, too. And when I realize that the scene I'm writing necessitates going back and changing an earlier scene, I can make a note of that in SuperNotecard and go on, instead of the MUST CHANGE NOW urges that bogged me down before.
So... I don't really consider myself a natural outliner. But if it keeps me from doing five and six major, throw-your-work-away revisions, I'm so there.
posted
I definitely outline my stories before I write anything. Well, sort of. What I do is when I'm really really bored and have nothing better to do (like during class, j/k) I imagine every scene I want to see happen in my story as if I were watching a movie of it. While I'm doing this I'm asking questions, like why does this character feel this way? How can I make that happen and still make it believable? And so on and so forth. Then I write all that down in outline form so that I don't forget it all when I go to write the actual story later.
I don't think there's a real advantage or disadvantage to one or the other. I think it depends on what kind of writer you are, personally.
posted
KatFeete – I do the exact same thing! I write something and then get an idea that changes everything I’ve already written to such a degree that I am basically starting over. It’s so frustrating! I cannot outline either because I also change my mind every other second. I get too wrapped up in the form of the outline as well. Note cards have helped a little but I will definitely check out those programs you linked. I did come up with my own form of outline that works better than anything else works so far, but still not perfect. I write the major events along the top of a sheet of paper, landscape style. Then below each major event, I write the minor events that lead out of it. The last minor event in a column leads into the next major event in the next column.
Posts: 225 | Registered: Feb 2005
|
posted
I just blunder through short stories. But I do storyboard my novel length WIPs. I have two at the moment.
I bought a huge corkboard and mounted it to my office wall. Then I created one index card for each scene. Cards include the following info: *POV character's name *Setting *What I want the scene to accomplish
I tack all the cards up in the order I think they should go. I also tack up drawings, newspaper articles, pictures, random dialogue and phrases along the bottom of the board.
Then I use it to look for places that need more attention, scenes that are redundant, scenes I can combine, etc.
I like it because it is a physical thing I can touch and move the cards around on. Plus, it is very fluid and easy to make changes. Also, It is big and always "in my face".
posted
Does anyone else do anything like this? When I am organised enough to know my scenes I get a bunch of envelopes and name them "Scene: The Carnival" etc. Then every picture or drawing or cool piece of information I come across gets photocopied or clipped-out and stowed in the envelope.
It helps me when I write the scene, and by the way they usually consist about 80 - 100 % pictures.
(A lot of cool words get written on the envelope though like: sandalwood or pteradactyl etc to prompt memories when I get to it)
And do you collect photos of likely people and put them with your charatcer profiles? Sometimes I will have two or three people in one envelope and they are all supposed to be the same character. Some are for the clothes though.
[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited March 10, 2005).]
posted
I agree that it is easy to spend too much time on things like this, especially if it does not appreciably improve the work.
However, it is also easy to justify a lack of genuine effort.
An example: Only a hack painter would not sketch-out his painting before he started, relying rather on tricks, well-used motifs and imagery so familiar to him as not to need a foundation. Every picture would be superficially different but, upon analysis, would be an arranging and rearranging of elements. Layering the same old stuff in a different order. They will get to an element and say, 'I should put a horse on that hill.' Then do some research (but only the barest minimum), and trace a horse and may even believe the horse 'changes' the whole image. But it doesn't.
Occasionally they may introduce some element or another into the painting, but that hardly justifies calling the painting new and exciting.
'How is this painting different to that one?' you may ask. 'Can't you see the horse on the hill?' they reply, ' This one's about freedom!"
Why would they not plan their work?
A: because they really don't want to improve their art, the want to refine their technique in orer to sell more 'genuine oil paintings' at a saturday parking-lot market.
B: Because genuine innovation, a really new image (new to their repertoire) requires mental effort and time they are unprepared to expend or
C: From the start they have no real intention of painting anything genuinely different to everything else they ever painted.
The writer without rigour is almost proverbial.
[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited March 10, 2005).]
posted
Hoptoad - Actually, I do something similar but not quite as microcosmic as yours. I once went to a travel agency and asked for brochures on Europe. I write Fantasy so I wanted pictures of castles and the like. This was pre-Internet. Now you can pretty much surf the web and find almost any picture you could imagine but back then it was photocopies from books which just were not the same thing. When the travel agency heard I was writing a book they gave me one of every single thing they had Europe. I looked like I had robbed a library walking out of there.
I cut up the photos so that I could not see the caption and be influenced in my description, and then organized them in folders by landscapes, bridges, castles, fountains, interior decor, people, clothing, hairstyles, etc. I pull them out whenever I need ideas for non-American landscapes, architecture, etc.
I stay away from pictures of people because no one looks like my characters and every face has a story (in my mind) so if I try and look at a photo of someone who looks sort of like my character, it just doesn't come out right.
posted
O'sweet'jesus, I hate mind mapping... just looking at the example picture made me want to punch someone. I remember doing that stuff back in school, it was the most unproductive thing I've ever done...
Posts: 183 | Registered: Jan 2005
|
posted
everyone thinks and works differently. i'm a visual thinker, as many geologists are, and mindmapping works well for me. other people work best in other ways, including some that would make me heave in a matter of minutes.
Posts: 2710 | Registered: Jul 2004
|
posted
I can't do mind mapping either. There's another technique similar to that that I can't remember the name of that a friend of mine swears by. It's basically the same thing except circles with lines connecting each thought bubble.
I can't do it. I'm too linear and that looks so chaotic that it drives me crazy. I get too wrapped up in trying to make everything line up nicely that I can't think creatively.
posted
I tried mindmapping a story outline once, and it was rather fun. Dean Hughes, an LDS author, uses mindmapping (though I don't know if he calls it that--it has more than one name) and it works very well for him.
When someone tells you about their writing process or method, that doesn't mean you have to use it, too. If you want to try it, go ahead. If it doesn't work for you, try something else.
But, please, don't feel that you have to shoot people down because they have found a use for something that has not worked for you.
posted
people might say that my writing method is super-chaotic. i simply do not plan. i mean it. i get the basic idea of what i want to write about, where it starts and ends, and plan out nations, people, creatures. but the story itself is not to be touched until i'm actually writing it, and then i let the story write itself. it's the character's lives, let them live it.
Posts: 477 | Registered: Oct 2004
|
posted
I spent about 2 months researching and 2 months writing my novel. The research was: going to a powwow, going to museums, going to Indian village recreations, reading books on Indians; 2 wilderness trainings, and some books on wild plants; books on drug abuse; books on physics; going to a city council meeting. I wanted it so that when I sat down to write, I would know that what I was coming up with was reasonable.
I really like the way it worked. I still had to look stuff up, but that was just for factual detail. The big thing was to be comfortable enough with the subject that I could invent detail.
posted
If I shot anyone down, I sincerely apologize. I was simply saying why it did not work for me.
I've actually tried several times because it seems like such a great tool but I get so caught up in where the next line should go or this line is crooked that my OCD kicks in and my creativity turns off.
But, I never meant to berate someone else for being able to do that. I consider it an art form that I just am not capable of. But then, I'm not capable of much of anything organized, unfortunately.
quote:If I shot anyone down, I sincerely apologize. I was simply saying why it did not work for me.
No need! I certainly didn't take it that way. In fact, I prefer someone who will take a stance to someone who is always shifting around! (easier to hit them )
One of the problems with traditional mind mapping is that it is often taught on paper. Big mistake. It is best applied on a computer using software such as I use (Mindmanager), or by using the Post-It(TM) notes method of writing the concepts on 'yellow stickys' and placing them on a wall.
Not being able to quickly and easily move an idea from one branch to another drives many people up the wall, and causes them to fall out of the creative flow. In the software you can quickly and easily detach and move a branch and re-atttach it elsewhere. On a bulletin board or your cubicle wall, you can just lift off a Post-It(TM)note from 'here' and re-place it 'there'.
In fact, this last is probably the best way to do it, for writers. You could also use 3x5 notecards and write followup notes or more detail on the back, and then after brainstorming with the notecards, file them neatly away. I do that also.
No one way works for everyone, nor should it. However, everyone should find a way to brainstorm that works for them.
And now, I'll step down off my soapbox and go get a beer.