Fragments and Feedback is not meant primarily as a critique of 13 lines of an author's work. While from time to time I have only needed help with a paragraph or even a word choice myself, this should not be the primary thrust of this forum.

We have an invaluable resource here, especially for those of us who, like me, are not surrounded by other writers in our own communities with whom we can pass along our stories. Thirteen lines is not enough to give particularly reasonable feedback, it is enough to get a taste of a person's writing style to know if you can stomach reading the rest of his/her work. (Because if it's wrought with grammar and spelling errors, I probably won't bite.)

The 13 lines has nothing to do with how much of an opening is required to hook us, it is a copyright protection. We do not want to have already published a short story on the internet so that we cannot later sell it.

In fact, Christine, when Nick Vend offered his 13 on Poppy and asked for a full reading, you directed him to the Hatrack groups for longer works. Not a bad suggestion, but if the intended purpose of F&F is only as you suggest, to "see who really wants to give the piece a look," then it was a strange reply.

Just scanning F&F topic blurbs, it seems the posters let us know what they want, like "Unnecessary first paragraph?" "A horrible sentence needs fixin'." Or the poster spells it out as EricJamesStone did when he wrote that even if someone couldn't read the whole thing, to feel free to comment on his posted 13.

I'm sure if a poster -- and I think there's been occasions when this has happened -- but if a poster absolutely wants only a full reading and no comments, he has only to say so.

The fact that Kathleen has started her "Lucky 13 Workshops" based on our F&F section tells me she sees value in commenting on the first 13 lines and in what we've been doing here.

Again, if a poster wants no comments, only a full reading, they can just say so. But I find F&F helpful, an invaluable resource, precisely through the comments of others about passages that aren't even my own. I've learned a lot reading them. There's a lot of wisdom on this site. Why shouldn't we mine it?

I disagree that you can't give reasonable feedback on 13 lines. The publishing industry's quick rejection mode is based on it. A 13-line reading may not be the final complete arbiter of worth --and it can, admittedly, be off the mark -- but it is a worthwhile arbiter, nonetheless. (Otherwise, Kathleen is embarking on a lesson in futility. )

The 13 line critique in no way prevents using F&F as a help with paragraph and word choice or for full-reader fishing expeditions. It seems part and parcel an adjunct to them.

<giggle> "readering" Hey, maw! I invented a new word!

[This message has been edited by Kolona (edited February 12, 2004).]

I think no one here is even ASKING for more because the trend has gone away from asking for critiques. A few months ago I noticed an awful lot of people posting their first few lines, ask for bites, and only get comments on their 13 lines. Now no one even asks anymore, and i think the new members are intimidated because they haven't seen the full scope of what this board can do.

Ther eis *some* value in just look at 13 lines, but frankly, every time I just comment on 13 lines I feel guilty because I haven't really given it a chance to go anywhere yet. Perhaps publishers only look at 13 lines before continuing, but a lot of the stories posted here are no where near publication ready yet.

As for the novel, yes, I did suggest another avenue because novels take an awful lot of time and dediation to critique. Unlike a short story or a part of a novel, it can't be done in an hour or 2. So my suggestion was not at all strange. Someone wanted feedback, and I tried ot help him get some rather than waste his time on 13 lines that, in terms of a novel, cannot even begin to tell a tale.

And of course not everyone has time to critique every short story that gets posted here, it takes more time than just giving a cursory glance to 13 short lines, but then again, you don't need 12 critiques of your work. They get redundant. When I see crits on the first few lines I notice that very little new information is added after the first few posts. You bite on a few, let a few go, and hopefully everyone has a chance to have about three or four people read their work.

It's been months since anyone utilized this board to actually try to get feedback on an entire story or novel chapter. I'd like to see more of it, particularly from our new members.

[This message has been edited by Christine (edited February 12, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Christine (edited February 12, 2004).]

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Fragments and Feedback is not meant primarily as a critique of 13 lines of an author's work. While from time to time I have only needed help with a paragraph or even a word choice myself, this should not be the primary thrust of this forum.

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And Kolona properly (and politely) called you on it.

My own readering of the forum title's use of the words "FRAGMENTS" and "FEEDBACK" is that, in fact, this forum is precisely NOT primarily to be used as a place to ask people to read your work. Instead, this a forum where you post a FRAGMENT consisting of thirteen lines, and in response the peanut gallery offers an unlimited amount of diverse FEEDBACK on what you've posted.

By and large, those of us who do want to get into reading entire works and critiquing them have followed your earlier advice and joined writer's groups.

Kathleen could, of course, change the name of this forum to "Please Read My Entire Short Story Or Novel, Which I Will E-mail To You Upon Request, Before Posting Any Criticism Of My Writing In This Forum: The Posted FRAGMENT Of Thirteen Lines Is Solely For The Purpose Of Giving You A Hint Of What You're Going To Be Reading And In No Way Does My Posting Said FRAGMENT In This Forum Count As An Implied Invitation To Critique It On Its Own Merit Outside Of The Context Of The Larger Work To Which It Belongs; Rather, If I Want Your Critique Of The FRAGMENT, I Will Expressly Invite Such Criticism, But Until Then Keep Your FEEDBACK To Yourself," but it's too long a title.

Wow! That was sarcastic, wasn't it? It's why I don't post so much any more. I'm just too big a jerk.

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What you seem to be suggesting is restricting it to feeler excerpts or descriptions only

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Look, I'm sorry I started this thread. I just thought that people were too intimidated to ask for full critiques and I wanted to assure them that such requests fell well within the scope of this forum. (And not just the new members, I've felt intimidated as well, and I've seen a time in which asking for full critiques was commonplace.)

So carry on and pretend I didn't even put this thread here.

In fact, it was important for you to start this thread, but your last post should actually have been your first post.

Uh oh.

I just critiqued a post after promising last week I wouldn't do so in this forum anymore.

So, great. I'm a sarcastic jerk, and now I'm a promise-breaker as well.

Dang it.

If no one has been asking to see more of the posted segments lately, there are probably reasons. For instance, I've been engulfed with getting a final copy of my project printed (which I finally mailed yesterday!), and insofar as 13-line critiques take as much time as they do, wasn't too keen on doing more. (I did do one recently, but not to any great depth, I'm afraid.) I'll generally not ask to see fantasy, although I may chime in on a 13-liner. I'm sure others have their own parameters and limitations.

It occurred to me that I wasn't here whenever this site opened its virtual doors, and have no idea what exactly was the original intent with this thread section. Whatever it was, though, it has at the very least morphed into what it is, which isn't a bad thing.

But while I don't think we want to forego helpful critiques, we certainly don't want anyone feeling intimidated. Maybe we should have another thread reserved strictly for full reader fishing expeditions, no commenting allowed.

However, when I posted a request less than two weeks ago for someone willing to look at a whole story, I got several takers, each of whom gave me valuable feedback. (I also got some good feedback on just the first thirteen lines.) So the process still works for whole stories.

However, there may be some sort of dynamic process at work here: If a lot of people are asking for whole-story critiques, then there will be fewer responses per request, because the number of people who are willing and able to take the time to critique is limited. People then get discouraged from asking for whole-story critiques, so there are fewer requests, which means there might be more responses per request.

* * * Slight shift of subject * * *

Now, I may be wrong about this, but I get the feeling that a lot of the people -- particularly new writers -- who post their first thirteen lines here never go on to finish their stories. They post the beginning here to see whether it's worth spending time to write the rest of the story, and some of the negative feedback discourages them from writing the rest.

Here's my advice about that (for what it's worth):

The beginning is not the story. Just because there are some problems with how you've chosen to start the story doesn't mean the story is not worth telling.

Write the whole story. You learn things by writing a whole story, things you do not learn by constantly writing and rewriting beginnings of stories.

The end can affect the beginning. Once you know how the story ends, you may decide to change where or how the story begins so that it fits with the ending. Therefore, don't waste too much time trying to get the perfect beginning; there will be plenty of time to fix it after you've written the end.

Reading this thread also gives me a better idea of everyone's personalities and writing styles. What you all like to see in a story. I also find out who the board trolls are! (People who read/post several times a day)

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Still, I do sometimes wonder where the 13 line limit came from.

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First, writers can offer a short sample of their story, and thus get other writers interested in critiquing it. Conversely, those of us that are going to be offering a critique feel more confident that we'll actually read and critique the text, because we've had a sample of it.

But it has another valuable function as well, one that Kathleen might not have anticipated, but one that I think is quite helpful. When someone posts their 13 lines here, and no one wants to read the whole story, the writer can still get feedback on why those 13 lines didn't engage anyone's interest. This is a vital point for novice writers and especially for the more experienced readers. I actually decide from reading that posted fragment whether or not I have/make the time (and I'm not always right about this) to read the entire work.

But this leaves novice writers, who often don't realize why their openings fail to inspire interest, in the lurch...unless I say "I would read this if...."

I think that might be a guiding ethic for criticisms of the opening lines. Say "I would read this if..." or words to that effect when writing your criticism. If you don't want to read it, then either say why or say nothing.

None of my stories are far enough along to let anybody read them. But the 13 line thing helps out a bunch. I can use it as a water mark, to see if I am up to snuff.

In my Virgin 13 thread, I got some positive feedback and some negative feedback. Both of which where helpful. It let me know if I was on the right track. That was all I wanted at the time.

When I am ready to have someone read my first chapter I will submit it again, and ask someone to read the whole chapter. I would hope that when I am ready, someone will be willing to read it and give me feedback.

I am seriously thinking about splitting this into two discussion areas. (Just haven't figured out what to call them.)

One would be for the fragments that people want immediate feedback on. ("Feedback on Fragments" or maybe "Lucky 13")?

The other would be for descriptions of larger material that people need volunteers to look at. ("Critiquers needed" or maybe "Reader can you spare some time?")?

The thing that makes me hesitate is something Survivor said:

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... writers can offer a short sample of their story, and thus get other writers interested in critiquing it. Conversely, those of us that are going to be offering a critique feel more confident that we'll actually read and critique the text, because we've had a sample of it.

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And a description just doesn't do the job.

I don't think that it needs to be split. I got good feedback on the whole story when I requested it, and also got good feedback on the first thirteen lines from people who didn't read the whole thing. If things were split, I would have had to post in both forums to get the same feedback.

It might be good to have an expanded explanation of the Fragments & Feedback forum. If you can create a closed topic that always stays at the top, that might be the best place for it; otherwise, a link to such a page from the description of the forum in the list of forums would probably work.

Some things that could be in that page:

1. Full explanation of the 13 lines rule.

2. Explanation of how to request feedback on more than just the 13 lines posted.

3. Suggestions that one include the genre and target audience for a piece when posting.

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2. Explanation of how to request feedback on more than just the 13 lines posted.

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Critiquers Wanted...Inquire Within…so if you have any suggestions, don't be shy to shout them out. You don't even have to raise your hand, or nuthin'.

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Good or Bad Opening?

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The Possibly Bad Beginning

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Hey everybody! this is a formal invitiation to critique all my story or 13 lines!

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It's very hard to avoid the chumming accusation.

So far as I know, there's no way to make a topic stay at the top permanently.

I can make the description longer, I suppose, but if it gets too long, there's no guarantee anyone will read it.

If you split this into two forums, one for Fragments and another for Feedback, they could each accomplish a great deal.

Fragments for 13 lines or a paragraph or even a sentence. Do the 13 lines hook you? Is this paragraph of dialogue good or detailed enough? I couldn't decide how to word this sentence, any ideas? etc. The point was made that it doesn't have to be your first 13 lines, but can be any amount from anywhere in your story as long as it's less than 13 lines. And again, 13 lines works wonderfully for opinions if your first page works as a hook or not.

Feedback for a description of your story and offers for people to read it. Story length, category, etc would be helpful too. If people want to read it and review it/critique it/offer suggestions, they could via Email. By the same token, 13 lines could be used as a hook to get a person to want to review or critique it.

Anyways, just my thoughts

Thanks for speaking up.

The "Poster" must clarify what he/she is submitting for feedback. Zixx eluded to this already. I don't know how many characters you can put in a heading, so some abbreviations might be necessary. Kind of a guide as to what you are asking people to critique. Maybe a heading would look like this:
Sci-fi S.S. 15 pages for critique or Fantasy Novel 1st chapter, 17 pgs.

Like Zixx mentioned, it needs to have a paragraph or two to see if your interested in critiquing it or not.

Also, a "universal" format for sending it via e-mail should be decided upon, so you don't have to ask what format to send it in every time. You just automatically get it as an attachment with an .rtf,.doc or .pdf extension, for example.

1) Perhaps it could be limited to one chapter or a set amount of words when a person posts and asks for a review or critique. This way people aren't going to be feeling guilty if they would rather not or were unable to review an entire novel. Or, they do not read dark fantasy but could at least review one chapter. You might wonder why no one wants to review their 325,000 word Sci/Fi. heh A decent review of a single chapter could teach you how to edit the rest of your novel.

2) Posting a word count might also help(both the sample chapter and the entire count). This way, if a person is matched well with a story, he would know how much to expect if he asked to read the rest.

3) People should avoid the tendency to post 100 lines to tell what the story is about. But it would also be nice to have the 13 lines to list a sample or the writing. Tis a quandry ) But to avoid each post from being 30+ lines long, perhaps 13 for a sample and 5 for a 'blurb'? Perhaps a nice challenge to see if you can hook a reader in 50 words of your story's description. Whatever Kathleen thinks is best will work, I'm sure )

4) Classify your story. What category does it fall in?

5) Just a side note. You are asking someone to read your work and give you an objective review or critique. Will you be objective when reading their suggestions and criticisms? If you only want to know a certain thing or two, specify that. "Does the hook work?" "Please critique the dialogue only" and so on. Even if you don't like the review you recieve, the person who reviewed it did so using their own free time. You aren't obligated to make every change, but the odds are there is something that could be improved. Be nice both ways )

PS Good idea about the format TH

I wont be upset if it is split, but I don't really see any need. I would suggest that where ever it ends up, people limit thier request to one chapter at a time. I personally tune out the moment I see "read the whole thing" or it's equivalant.

Just my thoughts.

Although it might feel more organized and helpful, I really don't think it's necessary to split the forum.

I do think there is some problem with offering a some types of crits on 13 lines without seeing the full picture. It's great for the "Would you read more?" question for the all important hook element, and sharing reasons why you would or would not read on, but sometimes I think we all read more into those first lines without considering what the rest of the weight of the story contains. Maybe it's just the wrong beginning for the story for reasons we would never know without reading the rest.

For me it's more a matter of having a hangup on the style in one story, versus wanting feedback on the content of another (i.e. has this been done before? Is it interesting? am I nuts to write a childrens book about angry mutated antelope? etc.) Whatever happens, It's all about the people baby.