penitence? I hope you mean penance.

Arch Cardinal? Ain't no such creature. There are Arch Bishops, which are the bishops that are in charge of arch dioceses and are higher ranking than bishops. Above Arch Bishopes are Cardinals, whose most important function is to select a new Pope when the time comes...then there is the Pope. That's it...no Arch Cardinal.

I assume this takes place in the future, since you have a woman in the priesthood. I actually like that detail, though I am afraid that this particular change is likely to be centuries in coming. I have spoken with priests about it and they tell me the reason is that the Catholic church, being universal, has to take into account the beliefs of many countries that are not as enlightened as the US in this respect. It's frustrating but there it is...some think that the Catholic church is due for another split ...into a US Catholic church that, among other things, allows wmoen into the priesthood. But this church would not be likely to follow the Pope in the Vatican.

Just some things to keep in mind...I would suggest some research. But otherwise this was a pretty well written, suspenseful bit. I'll let someone else flog you on those details.

Welcome to Hatrack!

[This message has been edited by Christine (edited March 09, 2004).]

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...I thought I’d introduce myself by submitting to a public flogging....

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Almost everyone here is nice, just watch out for anyone walking around carrying a large stick marked P.O.V. anyways --

I agree with Christine's comments regarding Catholicism. If you're going to use a relatively well known institution/religious group, it would be good to do more research so it matches up with what is generally known. If as Christine assumes this is a story in the future, then creating new positions/events like Arch-Cardinals or female priests can work, but I would suggest introducing something contextual that shows what the position is or how it came to be relatively soon in the story after mentioning that position.

EDIT: Ok, i started this post before Kickle posted the info about this being set in the Vatic Age of the church, which I have no idea what age that decribes. But the concept is the same, creating a new position can be confusing without contextual information

Also, just to nitpick a little:

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Her hand was in the drawer of the Cardinal’s personal desk.

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If it's the Cardinals desk isn't it generally assumed to be his personal desk? Personally I would think that it might be his private desk or such.

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...sounds of their footsteps faded into the shadows of the tapestry hung walls...

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I think that audible events fade into audible back grounds while visible events fade into visible backgrounds. So if you are watching the poeple walk away they would fade into shadows, but if you are listening to footsteps they might fade into the rustling of tapestries in a gust of wind from an open window or something.

good luck and welcome to the boards.

-jon-

"It had not occurred to her that anyone would be in this building tonight; everyone was required to be at Mass."

Don't make your main character out to be an idiot right off the bat. Yes, there are great stories that get away with it. But just don't do it.

"Anna waited until the sounds of their footsteps faded into the shadows of the tapestry hung walls and display cases of sacred relics before she took the key from the desk drawer."

Nice use of language and so forth, but if you look at this line, it clearly implies that; a. the cardinal's office is a really huge hall (which it might well be), b. the owners of the voices were in the office with her, and didn't actually leave so much as walk far enough away to get lost in the shadows and become inaudible. The first might well be your intent, but I'm almost certain that the second wasn't, or you would have mentioned them entering the office before walking off into its shadows.

Ditto on the Catholic bits....

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Penance? I think I was a victim of spell check on that one.

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LOL...yes, I hoped so.

I disagree with Survivor about the "Father" thing, though when I read it this morning I stopped and thought about it as well. But the reason priests are called "Father" goes beyong their gender, and besides, "Mother" is already reserved for a nun. (Most are sisters, but there is a Mother Superior who is called "Mother".) I totally buy the "Father" thing, and besides, it drove the point that she was a priest right home with no further explanations about future Catholic doctrine.

Ahhh....the sexual conflict of a young, handsome priest who has become torn between his vows and a beautiful woman (married or otherwise)...yes, that is becomming overdone. Still, I can see why it sold in the first place, we do love stories about forbidden love.

I would find it very distracting to read about a female priest referred to as "Father".

Also, I believe the usual phrase is "do penance", not "pay penance".

another crime, to confess and pay penitence for.

to

another crime, to confess and repent.

First, given the hierarchy of the Church, an Archbishop is a title above that of Bishop, and so an Arch-Cardinal would be that above a Cardinal. If that's the case, then an Arch-Cardinal wouldn't have a superior. A Superior in the Church is the person in charge of a convent, monestary, or abby. The Catholic Church is very old, and I don't foresee drastic changes within the hierarchy of the Church like the one's you're supposing.

As to women priests, well the only way women will be priests in the Catholic Church is if, as Christine noted, the segment splits off and forms the U.S. Catholic Church. Pope John Paul II, in one of his encyclical letters, has basically close the case on women's priests, saying that an all-male priesthood is an infallible teaching of the Church. Thus, your female priest wouldn't have a Pope to report to -- unless the U. S. Catholic Church sets up a Papal Chair.

I'm not sure I understand the whole thing about confession. Is she refering to the Sacrament of Confession, or is she refering a general act of confession outside of the sacrament? Is she the one commiting the sin? If she is, is it a mortal sin? And if it is, then how does this bear on her conscience? Here's the place where you lack of knowledge about the Church is most apparent.

One more thing -- any church that would split away from Rome in order to ordain women priests probably would consider the idea of relics too medieval to promote.

That priests are called "Father" is directly derived from their gender, for through their priesthood they beget spiritual children. That's the traditional Catholic view of the priesthood.

There are too many stories about celibate priests falling in love with a woman? Well, if the celibate priest is one of the primary characters of the story, what other kind of real personal and dramatic conflict can he deal with? If these are the only stories about priests you've read, then I'm sorry. You should read G. K. Chesterton's Fr. Brown Mysteries. And in the world of SF, you should read James Blish's A Case for Conscience and Walter Miller's A Canticel for Libeowitz.

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I was under the impression that the concept of a "mortal" sin is outdated.

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I'm sure a lot of Catholics would like the idea of a "mortal sin" to be outdated, but it is not. The teaching is clearly outlined in the new Catechism, and Pope John Paul II refers to it numerous times in his encyclical letters, particularly Veritatis Splendor, which addresses the modern dissent among Catholic moral theologians.

But that's not what made me bring up the subject of mortal sin. When a Catholic does something and then says, "I need to confess it," they are always talking about going to the Sacrament of Confession. (Most of the time this is said in a joking way because what they did wasn't that bad.) So when this priest is sticking her hand in the Arch-Cardinal's desk and then is thinking about making confession, what does she think she's doing? If she thinks what she's doing is right, then she won't be thinking about going to Confession. But if she thinks it's a sin worthy of Confession, does she think it's a mortal sin?

Perhaps my point is this: When a Catholic does something and, as he is doing it knows he has to Confess it, in his own mind that act is more grevious than other acts. And it should bear on his conscience, at least to a degree. Not having read the story, I'm not sure how to fix that, but that entire line about sin, crime, confession, and penance simply doesn't ring true.

That's my point; I hope it's clear.

I want to make a correction to my original post. I didn't read it carefully enough, and I though Father Anna was the Arch-Cardinal and therefore said she wouldn't have a superior. I stand by the point in my original post, but Father Anna could have a Superior. Sorry about that.

Like I said, I'm a Catholic, and I'm a Catholic of the traditional sort. I'm not in favor of the ordination of women, and I don't think (as Christine seems to think) that the Church in the U. S. is enlightened because it thinks women should be ordained. In my opinion, too many American Catholics have been unduly influenced by radical feminism. I say that so you understand this comment: In no way am I offened by your story.

If the story has "little to do with women priests," why is the main character a woman priest?

If you want to use the idea of the Arch-Cardinal, go ahead, but you'll need to explain what makes them different from an ordinary Cardinal.

If the idea of sin is important in your story, then you'll need to do some work. Sin is a very important aspect of the Catholic faith. Just think, the major Catholic symbol is the crucified Christ--Christ punished for mankind's sin. Also, Catholics have the Sacrament of Confession in which they confess their sins. Sin and guilt have a heavy hand in Catholic consciousness, so you'll need to personalize that in Father Anna.

If she's missing a required Mass, then that's a mortal sin.

"The Pope's private catacombs...." Hmmm, what do you mean by this? Why would the Pope be hanging out in ancient, underground, Roman tombs?

I can certianly appreciate not having faith in mankind.

I know, I know, this is only a story, but I have a hard time believing that a Pope would name himself "Jonah." If you look at Papal names, for centuries Pope's have taken names of their predecessors. When, in 1978, John Paul I chose his name, it was shocking because no Pope had ever combined two names. But he chose traditional names. So here's my point: You can name him Pope Jonah, but to satisfy a reader such as myself, you'll need to explain why he took that name.

An easy explination is this: He's from a country which, in the recent past, had a great saint named Jonah, and he took that name to honor his country's saint.

What is missing in modern religion and is necessary to make it have a mass appeal? I decided this was good old fashion ceremony, my future church is actually a step back from the modern church, it is churches where the individual can experience fervor. I believe the Catholic Church has the potential to provide the fertile ground for the future I visualize, a mystique not offered by other main stream Christian religions. I did do
research and the Catholic Church has adapted and changed a great deal over the centuries, to me this progression has been sometimes forward, sometimes back depending on who was in power at the time (not necessarily the Pope). At any rate, this
is all background. In my future the Catholic Church made a major change that saved it from extinction, a change the other churches did not have the opportunity to do. This change is actually very weird and would never happen in reality, it is the brain child of a very unusual Pope who love to take walks in orchards and take chances to save his church.

The story is simply the story of Father Anna over 12 hours, from the time she enters the Cardinal’s office, and the catacombs to the point where she and the Pope confront one another.

But PLEASE don't let my caviling take you away from your story. I've had that happen to me, and I would never want to do it to another. I don't think many people are going to care what you name the Pope--and if it's a good story, I'd not care that much either.

The only REAL problem I do see with the name of Jonah--and not having read the story, I don't know if it really is a problem--is that it might be too obvious of an allusion.

Don't let the harsher critics get to you - I am sure they are just as protective about their prize work as anyone else is.

In fact, the harshest critics don't post much of their work at all; whether they feel they are actually above the peer-level that exists here or just don't receive critiquing well, I don't know.

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In fact, the harshest critics don't post much of their work at all; whether they feel they are actually above the peer-level that exists here or just don't receive critiquing well, I don't know.

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