posted
Okay this is not the beginning, just a scene I could use some feedback on. The character is named Christopher. If you can belive it he later marries this girl.
Christopher watched as Sophia left the dining hall. He smiled secretly to himself, pleased with the thought that tonight would be the night.
He got up and followed her, his secret smile turning into a wolfish grin. She walked into a dark hall, and he hurried to catch up. She paused when she heard his footsteps, and he took the chance to grab her arm and whirl her against him. He started to attack her lips, not noticing that she was returning his ardor. He was shocked when his groin turned to fire.
"I am no man's plaything. Their are plenty of girls willing to lift their skirts. Go bother one of them." and she left him to contemplate his humiliation.
posted
Hi! Here are my thoughts...by the by, is this a romance, or just a racy scene from an otherwise tame story?
quote: He started to attack her lips, not noticing that she was returning his ardor.
It might sound better as, "He attacked her lips, but, pleased with his victory (or something along those lines), he didn't notice she returned his ardor."
quote: He was shocked when his groin turned to fire.
Why would he be shocked? Men's groins seem to be afire all the time! But seriously, is he trying to prove to himself that he likes this girl? If so, that line makes more sense.
posted
No I messed up. The way I have it the line reads "not noticing that she was returning his ardor". It's supposed to read "not noticing that she wasn't returning his ardor." And his groin turns to fire because she kneed him. I just wasn't sure how to say it. I kind of got stuck. Anyway, he thinks he's irresistable, and she humiliates him by proving he's not. Then later in the story he sees the error of his ways. She falls for him, and reveals that she's a queen in hiding. Anyway, I do need to stop with these rants, but they are so much fun!!! Posts: 102 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
His groin turning to fire didn't tell me that she had kneed him, I'm afraid. He seems to take that response very tamely.
I think you need to put more work into developing Christopher's mindset. At times, this reads as if he believes her to be expecting his advances, and at times as if he's out to have her regardless of her feelings in the matter. If the former, then he'd probably be surprised by her refusal--if the latter, he'd probably be excited by it. At the moment this reads to me like a bit of a muddle.
posted
He seems a little naive. He's going to sleep with her, and doens't even notice she doesn't like him? If that's the case, I'd say that's what your story's about -- it will overwhelm most other issues in the story.
Posts: 2830 | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
I was confused by this sentence: "He started to attack her lips, not noticing that she was returning his ardor." "Returning his ardor" makes it sound like she was kissing him back, and I wasn't sure why he would be surprised by that. I'm even more confused now that I know she knees him in the groin.
posted
I think it would help me if you explained what Christopher's motives are and how he's thinking. I can understand his goal in this fragment--to have sex with the woman--but I'm unclear on whether he's unaware of her lack of interest in him or if he's intending to force her. The "wolfish grin" suggests the latter, but his response to her resistance suggests the former. When we know what his motives are, we can probably be more help.
What kind of person is Christopher? What are his attitudes to women?
posted
He thinks that he is an irresistable stud muffin that any woman would be happy to drop her drawers for. He's not really intending to force her, the idea of resistance just never occurs to him. When she does resist him it ends by altering his whole view of the world. I kind of thought of the wolfish grin as a way of portraying how heartless he is now, and contrasting it later when he learns compassion.
Posts: 102 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Hi Maria, I read the other F&F too. I have a couple of thoughts. Whose Point of View is this supposed to be? In this sort of scenario, men seldom see themselves as 'attackers' (even if they are). That is more likely how she would see it. He would think he was 'seducing.'
And I can't imagine a man describing sexual arousal as 'my groin turned to fire' that seems too feminine, 'loin-al heat' is a lady thang.
Blood running hot may be okay, and men will lay claim to sweatiness and he may describe her as hot. Henry Miller described male arousal as a 'piece of lead with wings' and I think the idea of size, weight and firmness is, in most cases, closer to the male psyche.
She is 'hot', he is 'heavy'.
I think the 'heartless stud muffin' is a stereotype that is pretty one dimensional and a sham. I doubt it will serve your purposes if you want this man to be likeable enough for the reader to care about his change of heart. Or, when the change of heart occurs, we will not trust nor believe it and may suspect the female is a dupe.
Why does he want her? Does he have some sense of power over her? Why does he not force her? Is he scared of her? Will he worry that she will tell authorities or other girls about the failure? If she does, will they laugh or be angry or not care? Is she angry? Does he think, 'good idea about the skirt-lifter' and follow her advice to have at least some sense of success? In other words, rejection will bring insecurity. If you are firmly in his POV he will not see this scene the way you have portrayed it.
The wolfishness with which you describe him would be reenforced if you have him watch her closely for a while after this encounter. Have her sense his predatory, vaguely threatening, nature. But who knows? She may enjoy the attention, even if it is from a reprobate such as Christopher.
You need to make her resistance more forceful in her actions not just her words. He can easily, and probably be more inclined to, ignore her words if she does not turn away or if she remains submissive and pliable.
Also a note on names: Christopher means : one who bears Christ, and has strong early christian church and catholic associations. Sophia, on the other hand, has powerful Greek Orthodox and Byzantine connotations. If you are writing in a non-earth world where christianity does not exist, I would avoid such culturally laden names.
So to sum up my comments: keep consistent point of view, understand the chraracters and consider the cultural connotation for names.
[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited September 20, 2005).]
posted
I like the name Christopher and Sophia. I didn't choose them becuase of cultural connotations, I like the way they sound together. I named her after a character in Howl's moving castle and I named him Christopher becuase he is actually a character from an earlier story that never worked, but I liked him so I brought him here, and his name has always been Christopher. My thought about him was that he is in the ruling class, and as such does have a lot of power. She is from the people that was conquered by Christopher's poeple when they were still both children. And he was a gentle child, but it got someone hurt and he closed off his heart, and turned into the hard man that he is. Then he meets Sophia. He falls in love, but doesn't even realize it, he thinks that as her lord he just wants to sleep with her, and he has never been refused before. And her rejection is kind of a catalyst, and he completely changes. He becomes the kind and compassionate man he should have been all along. The love of this good woman turns him into a good man. And his groin turns to fire not because he is aroused, but because she knees him, and when she walks away he is doubled up in pain, and he keeps silent becuase he doesn't want his humiliation known. I just seem to be having a hard time going from my notes to the scene. So I appreciate all the comments. And yes, the two fragments are from the same story.
Posts: 102 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
His name is Christopher and her full name is Anna Sophia Katrianna. I think that sounds more Russian anyway.
Posts: 102 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
I wasn't getting on your case. What is the intended point of view?
I don't know what you mean by 'his groin turned to fire because she kneed him' also the 'doubled-up' up in pain thing as neither of these things ever occurred in the passage provided.
Just explain it more clearly. The scene was ambiguous.
Do I understand it correctly?:
1......she walks away 2......he follows 3......he grabs her 4......he kisses her 5......she returns the ardour 6......he doesn't notice her ardour 7......she knees him in the groin (why? a result of 6?) 8......he doubles up in pain 9......she makes a curt remark 10....she leaves 11....he is left doubled-up and humiliated
Sounds like you have a lot invested in these characters. I did not mean to sound like I was telling you what to do. I was just making you aware of cultural connotations.
PS: Sophia is Greek and means wisdom, it comes into Russia via the eastern orthodox church. There is no denying the cultural connections but it is up to you whether it matters in view of your intended audience. Who are you writing for?
[This message has been edited by hoptoad (edited September 22, 2005).]
posted
Sophia isn't a big problem, most people won't immediately think "it's Greek for wisdom", and even if they do, they won't have a mental breakdown trying to fit that into a fantasy milieu.
Christopher is a huge barrier. Almost anyone can see that it's one of the most specifically Christian names in existence, even if they don't know the specific meaning. And when people see obviously Christian elements in a fantasy milieu, they really need to know where it goes.
posted
In these days of find&replace, character names are easy to change, if need be. I think what's more important is that this scene isn't doing what maria wants it to do.
Does Christopher think he's irresistible, or is it more that, in his society, he always gets what he wants, whatever that may be? A horse, a meal, any woman he wants. The comments you've posted seem to veer between these two ideas. Irresistible studmuffin (insofar as I'm familiar with that term!) suggests he believes the girls all want him; the social setup you describe suggests he believes their feelings to be irrelevant. They are objects that exist for his use.
If the story is about how Christopher's mindset changes and he comes to regard Sophia as an individual, whose needs and wants are important to him (stop making those faces, guys!), then it's important that the story have a strong understanding of how he thinks at the start. I'm not yet convinced that it does.
One way to get into the mind of a character is to place them in various situations and see how they behave. It should also be possible to find examples of books about and/or by men who behave as you want Christopher to behave, and to examine their attitudes.
It's likely that the character as described would have contempt for women, and that would need to be overcome, at least as far as Sophia is concerned, if the story arc put forward is to work.
posted
Well, it's kind of like he is in a position of power, and he can have any woman that he wants, and he's deluded himself into thinking that he is irresistable, that they do want him, and arn't just scared. Any way, the point I want to make with Christopher, and his name is Christopher, is that he isn't that aware of anything much at all really, except what he thinks that he feels and wants. And he has been Christopher since I was in high school, I'm not about to change him now, It just wouldn't feel right. Posts: 102 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Hmm, I didn't have a whole lot of success getting the discussion back on track, did I ?
Call him Christopher or anything you want .
Okay, so he gets the women he wants because of his position in the power structure, but he thinks it's because he's irresistible. Right. That probably means he's very bad at picking up on body language and lacking in empathy. Now use this understanding of his character to inform a rewrite of your scene. Give the reader an insight into how he's thinking and what he's missing.
[This message has been edited by BuffySquirrel (edited October 04, 2005).]
posted
My only observation would be to not rush your words. Take the time to clarify what you mean. Don't try to maintain a "real-time" pace.
As a guy, I can say that the sensation of being kneed in the groin is not fire, that would be kidney stones. Reading it, I honestly had an interpretation of some kind of magic.
My interpretation of this scene would have C persue S, grab her, try to dominate her with his ego and "charms" only to realize that she turned the tables on him, (she would be taking the lead by responding with ferocity) then taking him down both physically and emotionally before walking away.
To me this puts Sophia in the control spot in the future of the relationship but puts Christopher on the path of the epic quest: to regain his control over her by winning her. Of course, in the long run, to win her, he would have to give up the competition.
posted
Exactly, thank you very much. That is just what I am trying to get across. I'll keep that in mind about the pacing. Now that I look back on it, it does feel rushed. Thanx!!!!
Posts: 102 | Registered: Aug 2005
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But seriously, is he trying to prove to himself that he likes this girl? If so, that line makes more sense.
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