And I'm sure anyone younger than that won't be able to crack the f*** code. Let's not delude ourselves.

I think this is a storykiller of an opening for the following reasons:

It is generally bad to start with dialogue unless it is brilliant. The reader doesn't know anything about the character and doesn't care what they have to say yet, especially when it is something as boring as 'I'm bored.'
So maybe start something like this:

quote:

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Valery picks me up at my condo in the Palms. I lay on the back seat as she drives to a park somewhere outside the city and kills the ignition.
'I'm bored.'

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Also the 'parks in front of a park' sounds a bit clunky. The act of parking is implied when she kills the ignition so maybe: 'she drives to a park somewhere...'

We don't know what the MC thinks of Valery's pronouncement either, they are blank to it. We don't know the MC's sex either. So it would be good to get some insight into how the MC sees the situation.

Personally, I don't know what this means:

quote:

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thinking about doing a line, and open them "

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I can't see how someone lying on a back seat could see, or be seen by, the rear vision mirror. I think this is a staging problem, maybe have her lean over the seat as you puts on the lipstick with a practised hand.

What is prozax? Is it prozac? You seem to imply that, like a golf ball in your shoe, it make you limp?

I think the "and open them" could be taken out of the 4th line.

And at the end, I'm not really sure if her question (wanna f***) is unexpected or not. becuse the next line is purely dialog, I don't know if this is a normal thing or not.

And for the record, I dont think words are ugly, I think Ideas are ugly, and even ugly ideas belong in writing.

Most people would not walk up to strangers and use the "f" word-- or anything equally crass and offensive--particularly if children were present. But each time we post to this forum, that's what we are doing; leaving a trail of our words behind us for others, young and old, to come across. This forum isn't password protected. Kids younger than 18 read it on a fairly regular basis.

Each time I run across a post with a snide and sarcastic comment that conveys the idea of "I don't care about your rules, screw you, live with it," I find that I like that person less and less. I have no desire to read their posts, and less desire to do crits for them. I suspect I'm not the only one who feels that way.

While no one expects every fragment posted here to consist of puritanical writing, it is not out-of-line to ask for the courtesy of an asterisk-bleep for curse words.

It is a courtesy to our host.

Constructive means that instead of telling a writer to just get rid of something, you suggest an alternative approach.

Both djvdakota and Elan have suggested alternate approaches.

For that matter, is there even a set of rules outlawing swear words? I haven't seen any rules at all, that I can find. I can perfectly see why SB thought it'd be O.k., as the forum does say for 18 and up, and usually that automatically means swearing and whatnot are allowed.

Maybe a set of rules could be posted up in the 'Please read here first' forum. It'd help avoid such mistakes in the future.

Back to the writing itself.

I actually like when a one-liner of diaglogue is the opening, but I'm probably completely ignorant as to if that's a good hook or not. I think it also gives a light as to why she's asking her question--is she suggesting it simply because she's bored? Is that the sort of relationship they have? Makes me want to read on and find out.

'and open them' seems awkward somehow. I'd cut it, then just say "I open my eyes to see Valery is looking--" and so on.

It's already been mentioned briefly, but I believe you're looking for prozac. Even if prozax is an offbrand (which really wouldn't surprise me), prozac is a very, even culturally, I'd say, known drug that the audience will be able to identify. Or, of course, you can just say 'medication' or 'anti-depressants.'

I'd like to hear more of what the main character thinks about this. Besides doing a line, that is. What they think of Valery, the situation, or whatever.

Otherwise, I find it rather intriguing. Care to divulge what it's about?

But I'm kind of refusing to crit your stuff until you'll let me read whole stories.

Every once in a while I'll poke into one of your threads and remind you that I'm still interested.

Constructive criticism in this context doesn't refer to my use of swear words or what you deem appropriate in an adult forum. The very idea an "adult word" being out of place is just an oxymoron. And I have no idea how you got the idea I want nice things said about my work. I have posted a number of times to have my work almost torn apart without defending it.

What I want are comments ABOUT my work, not about me or what words I choose to post and how they affect your morals.

Of course, you knew all this already and still chose to reply with conceit. You said you're older than eighteen, act like it.

Everyone else who replied with what urked them about my WORK and not about ME, I thank and note all the comments.

Edit: TL, I suppose I can. I'm just curious, though, why the refusal?

Edit: ThisProteanSoul, it's a 12k short story about the protagonist and Valery, his girlfriend. We, as readers, basically travel with them over the course of one full day, seeing how empty their lives are and how they try to find meaning with sex, drugs, parties, risk taking.

I would give away more but I'm still tuning it, and the full version I intend to mail out to those would like to give it a full crit.

Genre, Length?

Opening with crass but uninspired sex would make me want to toss the magazine in the trash. Harsh, but without a good motivation or a really well written passionate scene, It's not going to hook.

quote:

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This forum is for writers age 18 and older

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Don't mistake our age and maturity for a preference for sexually flavored stories. Blame whoever decided to label xxx and sex entertainment as simply "adult" for causing your confusion.

Of course, being a sometimes writer of hard-core erotica, I wasn't offended at all. But, I wouldn't subject other people to such things without, say, a warning in the subject line.

I will say, that the rest of the opening does not illustrate a level of tale-spinning to allow for an immediate blurting of the F-word.

Would it be safe to assume that people who read this forum are people who might have read Ender's Game? So therefore it's okay to put out the mental image of a kid being so short that he could walk between another kid's legs without touching his nuts, but it's not okay to use a the f-word?

It's such a delusion to assume kids don't know what the f-word means or that it makes the slightest difference to write f***, as if this fools anyone and retains any innocence that would have been lost had the other three letters been spelled out. It's just such an insane notion.

Íf a kid has never been to school, around people, been to sex-ed, or seen an R-rated movie and lived in an Amish neighborhood his entire life, then, yes, he might not know what the F-word means. But then he also wouldn't have Internet access.

The F-word is just an acronym. Would if be any easier for your to stomach if I wrote, "Fornicate Under Consent of the King?" Uh-oh, some little kid might read that and piece the clues together. Now, not only will he know how the F-word is spelt, but also know what it means! Taken alone, all of those words would be suitable for a preschool, but combined and in the form of an acronym they are vile?

Who are we really protecting here by censoring a word that is so universally known and used?

Edit: I find this topic very funny, especially considering no actual sex takes place in the story.

Even focusing on one word, and why it should or shouldn't be there is a critique.

Even in my last post there are several critical points made. (You can't sell something with the F-word on the first page unless you are looking for a very small niche market (bad pulp fiction). If that's your target market, say so. The rest of us are probably assuming you are trying to publish science fiction or fantasy and thus looking at it with that in mind.

Now, what I'd like to see is a reason to read on to page two. How am I going to invest enough in these characters to care that they have nothing in common outside of sex, drugs and partying? At this point, I'll never know they don't even have sex on page two, or ever in the story for that matter. I gave you ideas for hooking people in my previous posts. Rewrite this using whatever advice you can be convinced to agree with and repost it. If you are going to use the F-word, warn people and self-censor it. Yes, F*** is less offensive than spelling it out even though everyone who reads it knows what you mean. It just takes a little consideration. If you are planning on writing, you should always be considering how your audience will react. That's not to say you shouldn't offend your audience, but when you do, have a good reason.

But that's the thing, 'Bird. Is this SF&F workshop really the right place for you? Surely there are mainstream/literary internet workshops out there who would be able to more readily identify with what it is you're writing, and thus give me far better critiques?

Also, as you do not provide an email address, this is very frustrating to those members who want to read your entire story but can't. I know, I'm one of them! (Residing in the UK I doubt there's much chance of you going to the trouble and expensive of mailing oversea). I think, subconsciously, this is why some of your commentors on this forum may come across as sounding curt and nit-picky about your work. It's not that they don't like it, but that they do like it, only they know they can't read any more of it!

But I respect what you've said and I'll e-mail you with my address in case you ever feel like critiquing anything of mine.

quote:

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TL, why the refusal?

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quote:

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You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this BB to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law.

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Look, they were critting your writing. You're just discounting criticism of that aspect of your writing, but there is no denying that it is an aspect of your story.

I'm more irritated by the way that you post fragments without any regard to the suggestions that KDW made in the description of this forum, really. That isn't criticism of your actual text, though.

I thought the first line of dialogue was presented badly, the attempt to backfill the context in the second paragraph had no clarity or coherence, the third paragraph was meaningless information that didn't engage the POV well, and the last couple of lines are okay from a literary point of view but they don't really make me want to read further.

It doesn't offend me personally when people use the F-word. I think it's funny as hell, and if you know me you know just how funny I think hell is (and yes, I know that makes me an evil, evil person). But I understand and support the efforts of those who wish to make it a rarity in public discourse.

I didn't like the repetition in "parks in front of a park". I'm always wary of pointing out repetition, as sometimes it is done for effect, and I've just failed to appreciate that. Here it feels a bit sloppy.

I also wondered if Valery wouldn't be looking at the narrator "in" the rear-view rather than "through" it.

I think the narrator's voice is very well done, and I don't believe for a moment that including the word that must not be used renders this virtually unsaleable.

YMMV

The whole bashing of SB (for those who did it), began with their using the word and not censoring.

NO ONE made any constructive criticism about it being in the story. Nothing at all was said about that, or suggested that it was a disarming word to audiences, etc. People were just grumping about the use of it at all, which has never been grumped about before, because SB made the mistake of not censoring it at first.

This was quickly resolved.

Why are people still complaining?

I'm disappointed in all of you that are lowering yourselves to bashing SB for no reason, and belittling their use of a simple swear word.

Swear words are not ugly words. They're just like any other word. They can denote powerful emotion from those who rarely use them, or they can give the correct attitude for a character in a story that uses them constantly.

You people, writers, of all people, should be aware of this.

The more general problem of people feeling that KDW should limit her moderation of these forums to editing/deleting posts and simply banning members outright is alive and well, as of the most recent post. So is the problem of people feeling that the task of upholding the standards of discourse on this forum should fall entirely on KDW, and no one else should ever help her.

By the way, the F-word is not an acronym, that's somewhere between an urban legend and a mythic story. The truth is that it's a word meaning, roughly "to hit it hard". It is an ugly word, and an ugly concept, and always has been as far as historians have been able to trace it. People who use that word and yet believe it is an acronym strike me as being rather immature, even if they are over eighteen. Particularly when they argue that it is a word that is entirely appropriate to use in any company of persons over the age of eighteen. Such a person cannot have spent much time in the company of adults.

Or, which is more likely in light of the other arguments offered, such a person is simply making fatuous statements in an attempt to argue an indefensible position.

That's all. They thought they were in the right at that point, never willfully disobeyed the rules and said they didn't care, as a lot of people are acting like SB did. And when it was edited, they never protested it. They asked why we bother to censor things at all, but they didn't really fight the actual decision. And it all would've been dropped if people hadn't felt it was their duty to keep bringing it up by lecturing SB.

Would you mind taking what you consider the good advice that has been given and show us a reworking? That is, of course, if that is what you want. Your initial post does not say what you want so you got a bit of a mixed bag of responses.

This is a cool quote:

quote:

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Those bamboozled into believing palpable untruths that are recognized as such by the larger community are likely in time to develop an attitude of truculent resentment and outright paranoia rather than self-esteem.

--Thomas M. Disch, The Dreams Our Stuff Is Made Of: How Science Fiction Conquered the World

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Whether I'd want to read 12k words about unlikeable people with empty existences is very much open to question. It would have to be written very, very well. And I suspect the same is true for a lot of people.

Without wishing to become mired in the f-word discussion, there does seem to be a certain inconsistency. I quote:

quote:

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how they try to find meaning with sex, drugs, parties, risk taking.

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quote:

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I find this topic very funny, especially considering no actual sex takes place in the story.

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Also, the third paragraph has definate POV issues. How can he see her putting on lipstick that matches her outfit if his eyes are closed? Maybe have him open his eyes and face her when the car has stopped.

While I dislike the vulgarity of the "F***" line, I do find it to be a more valid line of dialogue for the fact that it MOVES the story. The narrator now has to make a choice and being faced with a choice is the basis of conflict.

I do think there are more interesting ways of stating the question that would add to the character instead of just throwing the F-Bomb out there to grab the reader's attention. I actually think that stating the same question in a softer way would provide an interesting contradiction to such a harsh character. Maybe, even though the girl is empty, overtly sexual and a druggie, she has issues with cussing do to her up-bringing. Or perhaps dispite her downward spiral, she is highly intelligent, refuses to use vulgarities and instead uses the word "procreate". As it stands the "F***" sentence moves the story, but doesn't make the characters any more interesting. They seem like cookie-cutter "washouts" to me.

The other issue I have goes back to SB talking about the root of his story. If these characters are apathetic towards life and spend the day trying to fill their empty souls, and from the way you discribed it, this chain of events is an "everyday" sort of thing, then I have one question. Where is the conflict?

[This message has been edited by thedeathkillersareback (edited October 24, 2005).]

Okay, technically, I'm not bent out of shape over this at all. But I'm evil. Maybe there are good people who are feeling a little harrassed by all this.

The thing is, all SB had to do was apologize for inconveniencing KDW (and potentially offending others) rather than going all "barracks lawyer" over the response he got. If he had done that, then I would agree that further comment about it would be counterproductive and unjustified.

But he did make snide remarks about having his language criticized and his post edited, and he didn't apologize at all. So Elan's post about the etiquette of using someone else's server space was entirely appropriate. It was in no way over the line of common courtesy to inform someone that he was being unpardonably rude.

SB blew her off.

KDW treated his statement seriously, just for the sake of argument.

And more and more people seem to be of the opinion that KDW shouldn't be asking people here to govern themselves. Well, what is your alternative? Some people seem to feel that it is okay to violate the rules without apology as long as the violation wasn't "willful". What the hell does that even mean?

[This message has been edited by Kickle (edited October 24, 2005).]