Current Version:

Cavyn closed his glowing, crimson eyes and drifted into a sorcerous trance. Within the sable silence of his mind the meditating demon could feel God's presence, beyond and within him, raw, bulging, and electric. Cavyn let his thoughts dissipate and channeled God's infinite power. Sparks of omnipotence set Cavyn's black brain alight, one cell at a time, until it glowed like a pile of embers on a funeral pyre. The energies surged down his fulgurating spine and spread through his black flesh like a poltergeist. Cavyn trembled as the terrifying and excruciating pressure of the Creator/Tormentor of the Infiniverse rattled his skeleton like a sistrum.
Lyssa shuddered beside her demon lover, empathically feeling his agony. She had known the torment of God's presence her entire life. As a cherub she had forsaken prayer, and as a seraph abandoned sorcery, because of her revulsion to God's voyeurism. Unlike Cavyn, she often felt God's presence at times she did not wish to.

Original Recipe:

Darkness surrounded the demon as he began his sorcerous meditation. Within the sable silence of his mind Cavyn could feel God's presence, raw, bulging, beyond and within him as he channeled the energy of the creator/tormentor of the Infiniverse. Cavyn trembled beneath the excruciating and terrifying pressure of God's power as it coursed through the conduit of his flesh. Lying beside him, the angel Lyssa sensed the familiar agonies of her demon lover. She had abandoned prayer as a cherub, and sorcery as a seraph, because of her fear of God. Unlike Cavyn, she sometimes felt God's presence when she did not wish to. As the spell coalesced, a quick paranoia wove through Cavyn's mind, and with it, a burning sensation, as if he and Lyssa had become engulfed in flame, enjoying one last pleasure as their flesh melted together.

[This message has been edited by Brant Danay (edited March 08, 2009).]

Taking a look at your thirteen. I want you to know this is all just my opinion so feel free to ignore it (you may want to).

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Darkness surrounded the demon as he began his sorcerous meditation.

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What did you mean by darkness? Is the light getting swallowed or is he losing conscience? Who or what is this demon anyway? Way too vague.

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Within the sable silence of his mind Cavyn could feel God's presence, raw, bulging, beyond and within him as he channeled the energy of the creator/tormentor of the Infiniverse.

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The second half of the sentence, I don’t know if the him you are referring to is God or Cavyn or what either has to do with the demon.

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Cavyn trembled beneath the excruciating and terrifying pressure of God's power as it coursed through the conduit of his flesh.

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I have no idea what this sentence is about or why it was necessary. It’s redundant and wordy.

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Lying beside him, the angel Lyssa sensed the familiar agonies of her demon lover.

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POV switch, it’s jarring. First hint that Cavyn is the demon. familiar agonies is too vague.

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She had abandoned prayer as a cherub, and sorcery as a seraph, because of her fear of God.

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Way, way too vague. No explanation on why she needs to fear god.

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As the spell coalesced, a quick paranoia wove through Cavyn's mind, and with it, a burning sensation, as if he and Lyssa had become engulfed in flame, enjoying one last pleasure as their flesh melted together.

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POV switch. Why the paranoia? What do you mean as if? Were they engulfed in flame? And were they enjoying one last pleasure? Or was one of them just thinking about it (it was never clear whose POV this is)? The word flesh seems so mortal to me. Try skin.

Okay Brant, let me give it to you straight. This is example of telling a story without saying much. It appeared as if you relied too much on your Thesaurus in an effort to impress. Things like…

Cavyn trembled beneath the excruciating and terrifying pressure

As the spell coalesced

and

Cavyn could feel God's presence, raw, bulging, beyond and within him as he channeled the energy of the creator/tormentor of the Infiniverse.

Don’t really say what’s going on. You need to show Cavyn’s fear, his efforts of creating a spell, and Lyssa’s concern for her lover. Throwing in a new word to say the same thing you said before doesn’t make it not redundant.
Then there was Lyssa and what she is. You mentioned angel, cherub, and seraph. Not being one well versed on angelology (as most of your readers are) I needed to look it up the terms.

Cherub - The second of the nine orders of angels in medieval angelology.

Seraph - The first of the nine orders of angels in medieval angelology.
This is redundant and contradictory at the same time (congratulations), and a perfect example of what I have been saying.

Stephen King recommended to keep your stories simple, this is not simple. I found myself needing to read this three times in an effort to understand what you were saying.

The shifting PoV that snapper points out is a problem for me, too.

Other than that, I find the style vague / soft-focused. I can live with that as a device for a short while, but I would need to see some clarity before very much longer. Perhaps if you revisited some of the following it might help:

- Not mad on “creator / tormentor” (caps?) but it is contemporary

- “of the Infiniverse” We know God the Creator / Tormentor is the main man and made the whole caboodle. Delete this and tell us about the Infiniverse when it becomes more relevant?

- All I 'know' about the heavenly hierarchy comes from the “Lucifer” comic books. Still, the cherub–seraph progression made sense to me; at least I understood you to mean that the angel evolved or grew older.

- “A quick paranoia wove” I'd revisit this description. I don't imagine paranoia as quick and don't see it weaving.

- “enjoying one last pleasure” sounds stilted. You might try deleting it. You could probably stand to rework that entire last sentence, though.

Let's try this revision on for size, after which I'll do some explaining.

Cavyn closed his glowing, crimson eyes and drifted into a sorcerous trance. Within the sable silence of his mind the meditating demon could feel God's presence, beyond and within him, raw, bulging, and electric. Cavyn trembled as the terrifying and excruciating energy of the Creator/Tormentor of the Infiniverse coursed through the conduit of his black flesh.
Lying beside him, the angel Lyssa empathically experienced the agonies of her demon lover. The torment of God's presence was a familiar one, one she had known her entire life. As a cherub she had forsaken prayer, and as a seraph abandoned sorcery, because of her revulsion to God's overwhelming and voyeuristic powers. Unlike Cavyn, she often felt God's presence when not consciously channeling his omnipotence.

I know I can't explain all this to an editor when I submit this piece, but here goes:

I'm using the Creator/Tormentor tag because I've gotten feedback in the past stating that when they read the word God they reflexively think of God as the ultimate source of good and love. This caused confusion because God's energy is being channeled by a demon. God is neutral and voyeuristic in this piece, and is, in fact, the main antagonist.

Infiniverse is no different than saying universe here, IMO, and is also an attempt to establish the setting, which is...the Infiniverse.

I used the word flesh so that the readers won't think the characters are spirits or dead because they are an angel and demon, but I'm not averse to changing it to skin, even though I haven't done so. The mention of flesh/skin is also based on confusion expressed in previous feedback.

The "POV switch" is actually an attempt to make both Cavyn and Lyssa equal protagonists. Since they're soulmates and as "one", I'm trying to use different techniques to communicate that, or at least symbolize it if it can't be done with tons of clarity. Technically, I'm going for an omniscient POV with a mythological style.

Cherub to seraph is a simple, physical progression from a child angel to an adult angel of the highest order.

So...any comments or suggestions are welcome, especially ones which address whether or not I've managed to establish God as neutral and the angel and demon as physical, flesh-and-blood entities.

Best regards,

Brant

Cavyn closed his glowing, crimson eyes and drifted into a sorcerous trance. Within the sable silence of his mind the meditating demon could feel God's presence, beyond and within him, raw, bulging, and electric. Cavyn trembled as the terrifying and excruciating energy of the Creator/Tormentor of the Infiniverse coursed through the conduit of his black flesh. My problem here is the lack of sequence from the second to the third sentence. First he's merely feeling God's presence, though it's obviously a powerful force. Then suddenly he's trembling because the energy is terrifying. This change happened too quickly for me. It reads as if you've changed your mind. I think we need to witness the energy growing stronger, etc.

Lying beside him, the angel Lyssa empathically experienced the agonies of her demon lover. This first sentence is pretty clunky. It might be better to just jump in and have her writhe in agony, feeling what he feels. The torment of God's presence was a familiar one, one she had known her entire life. As a cherub she had forsaken prayer, and as a seraph abandoned sorcery, because of her revulsion to God's overwhelming and voyeuristic powers. Unlike Cavyn, she often felt God's presence when not consciously channeling his omnipotence.

I'm mildly interested. To answer your other question, yes, it's pretty clear these two are flesh and blood. I might read on for a paragraph or two, but I'd like to know what the two are up to pretty quickly.

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I'm not trying to impress or dazzle anyone with my mastery of the dictionary. Verbosity and floridity are just part of my natural style, like H.P. Lovecraft, Clark Ashton Smith, Gene Wolfe, Romantic poets, etc

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Please do not misunderstand. My issue isn’t so much your expanded vocabulary, but rather your tendency to tell instead of show. Your eloquent word usage is no substitute for a tight MC perspective. Lovecraft, Smith, and Wolfe master that. Garth Nix’s short story in Norton’s best of Fantasy for 2007 also manages a verbose prose. They don’t overdo it.

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I'm not a big fan of the simple style, either as a reader or as a writer.

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That’s fair. Now about your rewrite.

Your first paragraph is better, a lot better.

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Cavyn closed his glowing, crimson eyes and drifted into a sorcerous trance.

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A very good first line. We know who the MC is and can see what he is doing.

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Within the sable silence of his mind the meditating demon could feel God's presence, beyond and within him, raw, bulging, and electric. Cavyn trembled as the terrifying and excruciating energy of the Creator/Tormentor of the Infiniverse coursed through the conduit of his black flesh.

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Better, but still vague. If Cavyn is working a spell to shield or screen he and his lover from the Almighty, then I would expect more to be happening. Feeling God’s presence as raw, bulging, and electric, isn’t enough. Even if it is beyond and within him. You only showed Cavyn trembling. All the rest is telling.

The second paragraph is still a POV switch. Why not make it Lyssa’s dialog? In fact, why not show Cavyn using his spell with dialog and action?

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I'm using the Creator/Tormentor tag because I've gotten feedback in the past stating that when they read the word God they reflexively think of God as the ultimate source of good and love. This caused confusion because God's energy is being channeled by a demon. God is neutral and voyeuristic in this piece, and is, in fact, the main antagonist.

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Now this is a really, really big problem. You are using Judeo/Christian mythological beings. Using Cherub and Seraph reinforces your readers assumptions. I suggest you give your characters different designations. At the very least, give your voyeuristic God a name that doesn’t associate him with the God of Abraham. This would be like using the names Apollo and Zeus and trying to claim Apollo is a God of a dry desert and Zeus is his bride. People just aren’t going to buy it.

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The "POV switch" is actually an attempt to make both Cavyn and Lyssa equal protagonists. Since they're soulmates and as "one", I'm trying to use different techniques to communicate that, or at least symbolize it if it can't be done with tons of clarity.

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Good luck with that. Either they are two characters or one. I can’t see how you can pull that off, not with the way you’re presenting it. Even if you were writing a story with conjoined twins do I think that approach would work. Your two characters can still be equal protagonist, you will just have to do it one perspective at a time.

You have a tall order ahead. The idea you are presenting is interesting but the first 13 is making me concerned. I would probably read on a bit more just to see where you are heading but would probably give up if the POV switching kept going.

Also just for the record...the confusion I expressed about their status was actually less about if they were flesh and blood and more about why...more often then not angels and demons are depicted either as spirits, or as spirits that are able to incarnate themselves physically...or I've seen it in a few cases where they are entities that are body and soul in one, not a soul living within a body. In this story they seem to "work" the same way as a human...physical beings within which reside an immortal soul...which just strikes me as odd for angels and demons.

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Good luck with that. Either they are two characters or one. I can’t see how you can pull that off, not with the way you’re presenting it. Even if you were writing a story with conjoined twins do I think that approach would work. Your two characters can still be equal protagonist, you will just have to do it one perspective at a time.

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3rd person omniscient POV is not "in" right now, but it is a legitimate writting technique/style. Some do consider it difficult to accomplish well, but thats subjective.

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Now this is a really, really big problem. You are using Judeo/Christian mythological beings. Using Cherub and Seraph reinforces your readers assumptions. I suggest you give your characters different designations. At the very least, give your voyeuristic God a name that doesn’t associate him with the God of Abraham. This would be like using the names Apollo and Zeus and trying to claim Apollo is a God of a dry desert and Zeus is his bride. People just aren’t going to buy it.

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Just for the record, people have. There are published works involving "God" portrayed in ways very different from Judeo-Christian concepts...google "Satan Burger" and Ugly Hell/Beautiful Heaven" for examples. Same for the angealogical terminology. I, and quite a few people I know, enjoy those very types of twists and juxtopositions.

I say this with respect and without rancor, snapper, but I do think you (well, a lot of people here honestly) some times get your personal tastes involved in critiqueing a little too much. Yes, you stated in your original post that its all just your opinion, but here your talking about the opinions of readers in general which is a dangerous thing to do, especially about subject matter rather than technical issues. Mainstream genre trends are well and good, but there are growing movements of very strange and unusual literature out there, and plenty of people with the taste for them. Like I said, as far as I knew, unusual takes on "God" are not anything most genre readers I know would be confused by so...

I must amend this to say that the particular unusual take on God and angels/demons in this story IS somewhat confusing but not because its unusual...its because its particular nature isnt made clear quickly or clearly enough or in some cases at all. But I maintain that using "God" "angel" "demon" "seraph" etc in unusual ways...while it will be distasteful or generally confusing to some...will be equally appealing to others.

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Just for the record, people have. There are published works involving "God" portrayed in ways very different from Judeo-Christian concepts...google "Satan Burger" and Ugly Hell/Beautiful Heaven" for examples. Same for the angealogical terminology. I, and quite a few people I know, enjoy those very types of twists and juxtopositions.

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Satan Burger is a parody. If Brant’s submission was a parody, I wouldn’t have an issue with the subject matter. Ugly Heaven/ Beautiful Hell is a different take on the Judeo-Christian mythology but it’s still about the same mythology. By Brant’s own admission, this is a different concept with the same mythological characters. That gives it an almost plagiaristic feeling to the piece (not accusing you of any wrong doing, Brant). I know other people have written stories of mythological characters and had them in situations that run counter to how we perceive them, but they were still done within the concept of that mythological setting.
Now if this were a story done in lets say a parallel universe with the same characters (like an evil Capt. Kirk) than I would say fine, tough sell but fine. What I am saying is this will be really, really difficult to pull off.
I have read my fair share of books of a different take of the after life myself, Merlion. I’ve read Robert Heinlien’s Book of Job , and my still favorite book of all time is Larry Niven’s/Jerry Pournelle’s Inferno (a modern version of Dante’s classic). I myself have written short stories based on heaven and God. So the idea is not foreign to me.

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I say this with respect and without rancor, snapper, but I do think you (well, a lot of people here honestly) some times get your personal tastes involved in critiqueing a little too much. Yes, you stated in your original post that its all just your opinion, but here your talking about the opinions of readers in general which is a dangerous thing to do, especially about subject matter rather than technical issues.

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Hmmm, well I can I say to this is I only can give opinions on what I have learned, what I like, what seems correct to me, and what hasn’t worked in my experiences. I would be the first to admit that I do not have the answers, in fact, it would be wise to get a second opinion. Hatrack is a wonderful place to receive critiques by unbiased reviewers. Sometimes they seem harsh, sometimes they run counter to other crits, but from me, they are honest. Its how I feel. Author’s use this forum to find out if what they are doing is working without the usual ‘it’s nice’ you would get from people close to you. Why else would you place your hard work out there to be potentially publicly ridiculed? Anyone that submits a work for crit should be aware of that not all your stuff is going to be gushed over. I haven’t portrayed my opinion as one as a general reader but it is how I think, and to constantly disclaimer that ‘its only my opinion’ every time I give an opinion would be redundant and tiresome. Even if you took it as I was speaking for all general readers I fail to see how it could be dangerous. And I submit, at least half of my critique had to do with technical issues rather than subject matter.

I also say with outmost respect and without rancor, Merlion, that I give a critique for the purpose of helping the author. I appreciate every critique that I have ever received, just as Brant did with mine and Toby's in his last post. It was clear that he didn’t agree with most of what I said, and that is okay, it is his prerogative, just as it is your prerogative to have an opinion on my opinion.

There is one thing that I will take credit for; one of the reason’s why I chose to critique Brant’s submission was because it was getting overlooked. One thing you can say about my critiques, they tend to get others to comment on the same piece, if only to show their disagreement.

I would think that by the definition of omniscience, an omniscient viewpoint would allow someone to see inside both character's minds, know their thoughts, dreams, feelings, etc. I'm sure someone can pull out their how-to manual or reference their college course or whatever and say eh-eh, but that's my personal take on it.

Maybe I should have added slipstream, surrealism, irrealism, and/or Bizarro to the quasi-classification of this one as well.

I think finding new and different ways to look at philosophical concepts, such as God, is an important aspect of literature, and I don't think any limitations need to be set in regards to that, or that they should be confined to parodies. Raw, unbridled creativity should allow for anything. Packaging those ideas into something relatively cohesive and comprehensible is obviously important, unless you're going for something extremely avant-garde and open to interpretation, like an abstract painting, which isn't a bad thing either.

I think the whole "show don't tell" thing is a bit narrow-minded. I know it's a prevalent proverb, but, truthfully, I find it to be an unnecessary and unfortunate trend. But then again, aren't all trends?

I think part of what's making me different here is my imagination is a lot more open and free-flowing. I don't have any trouble imagining, say, a quick paranoia weaving through someone's mind, to take a line from this piece that was previously mentioned. I don't have a lot of preconceived notions about words or things, I just kind of go with the flow of whatever I'm reading. I don't have problems with suspension of belief. I figure, if someone else created a universe, they're the God of it, what they say goes. If they say two plus two equals four hundred and twenty-one, then two plus two equals four hundred and twenty-one. If their universe is interesting, I stay. If it's boring, no matter how good the plot or sympathetic the characters, I leave. I'm not stating this to defend the flaws in my work, or as an excuse for my errors. My reality is just a little more...dreamlike than most people's.

I'm more of a poet than a storyteller. I think my style is really just lost among a lot of people here. Having to constantly remind everyone that my verbosity, omniscient POV, etc. are intentional is starting to make me feel bad. I get the same feedback repeatedly, and I think I'm just wasting the time of everyone who puts their energy into reviewing my material, only for me to effectively nullify a large portion of it with my avant-garde philosophies. I'm not sure what to do about this. I'd hoped my "Artist's Statement" would help. I don't know

Anyways, here's the latest revision based upon all feedback garnered thus far:

Cavyn closed his glowing, crimson eyes and drifted into a sorcerous trance. Within the sable silence of his mind the meditating demon could feel God's presence, beyond and within him, raw, bulging, and electric. Cavyn let his thoughts dissipate and channeled God's infinite power. Sparks of omnipotence set Cavyn's black brain alight, one cell at a time, until it glowed like a pile of embers on a funeral pyre. The energies surged down his fulgurating spine and spread through his black flesh like a poltergeist. Cavyn trembled as the terrifying and excruciating pressure of the Creator/Tormentor of the Infiniverse rattled his skeleton like a sistrum.
Lyssa shuddered beside her demon lover, empathically feeling his agony. She had known the torment of God's presence her

[This message has been edited by Brant Danay (edited March 09, 2009).]

I cannot comment on the nescessity for 'proper demonological terms' relating too this genre. I tend to dispell my preconceptions when reading a fiction piece in this tone because I have seen so many different styles and approaches.

I would read on. It reminded me of a Poul Anderson book, "War of the Gods" I think is the title.

OOP, just to be critical. I think you were missing a half dozen commas or so

I think you should write that story about Apollo, god of the desert, with Zeus as his bride, Snapper. It sounds cool to me. Of course, just about everything sounds cool to me

It's just an angel, a demon, and God in this story, with a few disposable monsters and extras. I'm pretty sure that's been done before. And the angel and demon aren't ones out of mythology, their names are made-up. I don't know, I just thought that would be the best way to have a philosophical, pornographic, BDSM, surreal fugue-romance saturated with musings about the nature of good, evil, love, death and God. But...maybe not.

I think your last iteration of your first thirteen is the best yet. It goes a long way towards clarifying what is going on and showing the true colors of the "God" in your world. Nicely done.

As to your other question, I think POV switches become problematic because they can be confusing if overused. The only book I've ever put down in the last few years was due to this. Too many characters and too many POV switches. It became too much work to follow exactly what was happening. Now, don't get me wrong. I enjoy books that challenge me and expand my horizons, but there is a big difference between a challenge and confusion.

Bycin, what book was that, by the way? Just curious. Maybe I can use it as a how-not-to manual!

Annepin, did you like the new sequencing, with the slow build-up of energy?

I guess it's better to create a reaction of any kind than not create one at all.

Thanks again, everyone. Best regards,

Thanks, Bycin. Best regards,

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Cavyn closed his glowing, crimson eyes and drifted into a sorcerous trance. Within the sable silence of his mind the meditating demon could feel God's presence, beyond and within him, raw, bulging, and electric. Cavyn let his thoughts dissipate and channeled God's infinite power. Sparks of omnipotence set Cavyn's black brain alight, one cell at a time, until it glowed like a pile of embers on a funeral pyre. The energies surged down his fulgurating spine and spread through his black flesh like a poltergeist. Cavyn trembled as the terrifying and excruciating pressure of the Creator/Tormentor of the Infiniverse rattled his skeleton like a sistrum.
Lyssa shuddered beside her demon lover, empathically feeling his agony. She had known the torment of God's presence her entire life. As a cherub she had forsaken prayer, and as a seraph abandoned sorcery, because of her revulsion to God's voyeurism. Unlike Cavyn, she often felt God's presence at times she did not wish to.

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As a newcomer 'round these parts, I'm going to respond to your most recent version.

This is very interesting, and as a theology graduate, I'm very curious where it's headed.

My only concern is that you seem to be in inside the heads of both characters, so I don't yet know which POV I'm reading. The empath offers a way to do two at once, but only if the reader experiences Cavyn's feelings THROUGH her.

Right now, Cavyn's thoughts seem to be coming through Cavyn, Lyssa's from Lyssa. Completely omniscient POV *is* an option, but it's a tough one to pull off; so much so that although I love all else about Frank Herbert's Dune, I am immediately distracted from the story when he switches which character's thoughts you "hear".

You can send me more, though, if you desire.